Iv seen better flops

Backstreet Moyes

I have been at the table about an hour villian hasnt been in to many hands playing pretty tight preflop he doubled up wit a set vs an overpair.

Online $1/2 effective stacks $360

Folded to me in middle postion i raise to 8 wit KK folded to villian on the button who makes it $20 comes back around to me and i make it 60 he flat calls.

Flop QsJs4h

Action on me. Whats your plan????

Macspower

3 of the 4 hands your can put him on beat you and the only one that doesn't is AK... tough spot..

I go into check calling mode and try to get to the river as cheap as you can... if he's coming at you strong I let it go..

Check now for me anyway although I think some will tell you to lead and fold to a RR.... but I don't like this line..

Lets see what the experts say...

Mac

phantom_lord

i'd just c/f.

the whole year inn

Def high pair or AK AQ prob later if it suited and tight .Depending on your cash raise big bush the flush at least .

james

30something

Given you are oop to him why not push preflop and take away the annoying decision making?

phantom_lord

30something wrote:

Given you are oop to him why not push preflop and take away the annoying decision making?

u wanna push for 360 after he makes it 20?

opr

phantom_lord wrote:

u wanna push for 360 after he makes it 20?

You take away the annoying decision making.

Opr

Macspower

30something wrote:

Given you are oop to him why not push preflop and take away the annoying decision making?

The tourney player coming out in you 30???

PF play is spot on but as PL says it's prob a check/fold now

Ste05

Such a disgusting spot. I really hate to just c/f but this is just so awkward.

I think I might have either raised to 70/80 or just called pre-flop, it's just going to be so nasty being OOP with those stacks with the 60 re-raise.

Yuck, Yuck, Yuck....

bops

folding kk on a q high flop?? - ye guys are all just too good!!

...you are beat obv: AA QQ JJ, ...AK at a push...maybe KK!!

have you got the Ks??

anyway i'd just check

Ste05

I don't think anyone is suggesting open folding... LOL Interesting Line though, along with pushing pre-flop it also takes away those pesky decisions.

Backstreet Moyes

bops wrote:

folding kk on a q high flop?? - ye guys are all just too good!!

...you are beat obv: AA QQ JJ, ...AK at a push...maybe KK!!

have you got the Ks??

anyway i'd just check

Ye i had Ks il jus let a few more comments come in on the flop action before i let you know what happened on the flop.

OutOfPosition

Macspower wrote:

3 of the 4 hands your can put him on beat you and the only one that doesn't is AK... tough spot..

I go into check calling mode and try to get to the river as cheap as you can... if he's coming at you strong I let it go..

Check now for me anyway although I think some will tell you to lead and fold to a RR.... but I don't like this line..

Lets see what the experts say...

Mac

The experts should say exactly this. Spot on. End of.

OutOfPosition

bops wrote:

have you got the Ks??

He has, so Rule out AKs, but too many hands beat us

DEmeant0r

Yeah let's push 360 after he makes it 20, great advice 30, only hand that would call you are aces, and maybe queens.

I'd take macspower line, or maybe c/f

nicnicnic

I'd probably c/r

Captain Tom

ugly spot. i think i check/call flop check/fold turn. his p/f range should be wider than usual considering were so deep.

Ace2007

interestin spot to be in, im thinkin the same as nicnicnic, if he has AA or KK, and you c/r on the flop - can he call you? and tbh the only hands that he can call a c/r are QQ and JJ(but would he make it 20 and then flat call 60 with JJ)

Captain Tom

Ace2007 wrote:

interestin spot to be in, im thinkin the same as nicnicnic, if he has AA or KK, and you c/r on the flop - can he call you? and tbh the only hands that he can call a c/r are QQ and JJ(but would he make it 20 and then flat call 60 with JJ)

turning my hand into a bluff would probably be the last thing on my mind here.

Van Dice

Ace2007 wrote:

interestin spot to be in, im thinkin the same as nicnicnic, if he has AA or KK, and you c/r on the flop - can he call you? and tbh the only hands that he can call a c/r are QQ and JJ(but would he make it 20 and then flat call 60 with JJ)

Why do you want to bluff with KK here?!

I think you have to check, and hope he checks behind. I think you're behind his range, if he bets I prob fold. It's a sick spot cos if he is willing to put a lot more money in, you're crushed.
Unless villain is really bad or really good. Really bad is fine obv, if he's really good he knows you have AA/KK most of the time and cannot stand heat at all. So it's a v good bluffing spot from his point of view. But v standard opponent, default line is that he has TT+ or AK. TT and AK I think he checks behind, he prob always bets set, and prob AA.

Van Dice

Captain Tom wrote:

turning my hand into a bluff would probably be the last thing on my mind here.

snap

Ace2007

for the record i was agreein with nicnicnic.....

im just sayin if u think ur opponent has AA or KK then a c/r should win u the pot if ur opponent is as tight as you say

OutOfPosition

nicnicnic wrote:

I'd probably c/r

probably the only option that i would not consider

mdwexford

i agree with Ste i prefer to call the 20 preflop than play a huge pot oop.

as played id lead for 90 and fold to a shove. check folding is too weak.

also shoving preflop is a ridiculous suggestion

nicnicnic

nicnicnic wrote:

I'd probably c/r

as a second choice I like open shoving the flop

Ste05

Are you actually being serious nicnicnic???

nicnicnic

Ste05 wrote:

Are you actually being serious nicnicnic???

no trying to add a few options to the mix

Mr.Plough

horrible flop.

if you check hes more than likely firing one at you unless hes one to slowplay sets.

hope he checks behind as you'll obviously turn a k

30something

I appreciate no-one likes my AIPFR line but is it being dismissed out of hand because of the flop?

My suggestion was a pre flop one. We have KK. We are only ever behind to AA and a monster favourite to ALL OTHER HANDS PRE FLOP.

Here we have shown strength before the flop with a raise. Guy with position on us shows strength with a re-raise. Our next move, knowing we will be oop to re-raiser, is crucial. We either raise or call (folding obv not an option). If we raise it will result in ....

a) A fold by him to our raise and we take the pot there and then
b) A flop and we are oop.

We dont want to play a flop oop here esp if an A falls. As it happens we dont seem to want to play a flop that is even Q high. So what are we trying to achieve when the re-raise PF comes to us? Are we trying to get more money in the pot to play the flop oop? NO! The OPs initial re-re-raise is too small. Equally, if it is any bigger we are nearly committing ourselves anyway. And why not play for stacks PF if he wants to - we have KK.

I appreciate the stacks are reasonable, but as this is a cash game at a reasonable level, can we not assume OP has decent b/r m'ment skills? If so I assume he has plenty in reserve in case he looses this one pot and not too much damage is done. If that is not the case OP shouldnt be playing at this level.

What other spots are we looking for to double our stack pre-flop? AA, AK & QQ? We have the 2nd best possible hand.

I have seen the numbers run and I think KK runs into AA heads up once every 375 times or so. Even if it was once every 10 times is this not a +ev play?

If the argument is that we don't want to "waste" KK by risking him folding pre-flop, fair enough, but only if we have position.

This is the best example of the importance of position I have seen in ages. I stand by my AIPFR move (but then again, see my sig )

5starpool

30something wrote:

I appreciate no-one likes my AIPFR line but is it being dismissed out of hand because of the flop?

My suggestion was a pre flop one. We have KK. We are only ever behind to AA and a monster favourite to ALL OTHER HANDS PRE FLOP.

Here we have shown strength before the flop with a raise. Guy with position on us shows strength with a re-raise. Our next move, knowing we will be oop to re-raiser, is crucial. We either raise or call (folding obv not an option). If we raise it will result in ....

a) A fold by him to our raise and we take the pot there and then
b) A flop and we are oop.

We dont want to play a flop oop here esp if an A falls. As it happens we dont seem to want to play a flop that is even Q high. So what are we trying to achieve when the re-raise PF comes to us? Are we trying to get more money in the pot to play the flop oop? NO! The OPs initial re-re-raise is too small. Equally, if it is any bigger we are nearly committing ourselves anyway. And why not play for stacks PF if he wants to - we have KK.

I appreciate the stacks are reasonable, but as this is a cash game at a reasonable level, can we not assume OP has decent b/r m'ment skills? If so I assume he has plenty in reserve in case he looses this one pot and not too much damage is done. If that is not the case OP shouldnt be playing at this level.

What other spots are we looking for to double our stack pre-flop? AA, AK & QQ? We have the 2nd best possible hand.

I have seen the numbers run and I think KK runs into AA heads up once every 375 times or so. Even if it was once every 10 times is this not a +ev play?

If the argument is that we don't want to "waste" KK by risking him folding pre-flop, fair enough, but only if we have position.

This is the best example of the importance of position I have seen in ages. I stand by my AIPFR move (but then again, see my sig )

If you can get your opponent to call a monstrous overbet with cards other than AA then yes, it is the right play to shove preflop. Otherwise, the only hand that calls this is AA, and so it is a ridiculous suggestion. There is nothing to suggest that he will call with QQ/JJ/AK, and he should not either. This is not a 20BB tournie hand here.

Macspower

30something wrote:

I appreciate no-one likes my AIPFR line but is it being dismissed out of hand because of the flop?

My suggestion was a pre flop one. We have KK. We are only ever behind to AA and a monster favourite to ALL OTHER HANDS PRE FLOP.

Here we have shown strength before the flop with a raise. Guy with position on us shows strength with a re-raise. Our next move, knowing we will be oop to re-raiser, is crucial. We either raise or call (folding obv not an option). If we raise it will result in ....

a) A fold by him to our raise and we take the pot there and then
b) A flop and we are oop.

We dont want to play a flop oop here esp if an A falls. As it happens we dont seem to want to play a flop that is even Q high. So what are we trying to achieve when the re-raise PF comes to us? Are we trying to get more money in the pot to play the flop oop? NO! The OPs initial re-re-raise is too small. Equally, if it is any bigger we are nearly committing ourselves anyway. And why not play for stacks PF if he wants to - we have KK.

I appreciate the stacks are reasonable, but as this is a cash game at a reasonable level, can we not assume OP has decent b/r m'ment skills? If so I assume he has plenty in reserve in case he looses this one pot and not too much damage is done. If that is not the case OP shouldnt be playing at this level.

What other spots are we looking for to double our stack pre-flop? AA, AK & QQ? We have the 2nd best possible hand.

I have seen the numbers run and I think KK runs into AA heads up once every 375 times or so. Even if it was once every 10 times is this not a +ev play?

If the argument is that we don't want to "waste" KK by risking him folding pre-flop, fair enough, but only if we have position.

This is the best example of the importance of position I have seen in ages. I stand by my AIPFR move (but then again, see my sig )

excellent argument 30...... I love when a guy has an idea and can back it upwith an argument... well done...

I still don't like it though :rolleyes:
I had this done to me a few times lately and I've folded QQ/JJ/AK etc..... Only 2 hands I call this with is AA or KK so it's -ev for me anyway...

Still like the argument for it though

Mac

Backstreet Moyes

Ok well i checked the flop and he checked behind.
Turn was another 4c i checked again bad good??. He bets 40.

Macspower

call..... this was my original plan... try to get to the river cheap....

Ace2007

Nuts102 wrote:

Turn was another 4c

you mean there are two 4 of clubs - wow :eek: :eek:

OutOfPosition

Macspower wrote:

call..... this was my original plan... try to get to the river cheap....

hmmm, i agreed with this originally but this i think i raise now, it looks weak to me make it 100 (if u call it you will most likely call another bet on the river so make it 100 and fold to a shove) Are we ever looking at AQ here?

cardshark202

I would c/c this turn and c/f the river. He could well have the other KK though.

OutOfPosition

cardshark202 wrote:

I would c/c this turn and c/f the river. He could well have the other KK though.

so u check call the 40, and then he bets 60/80 @ the river is it still a fold. why call the turn then?

cardshark202

Cos he will usually give up with any hand we beat on the river, given the preflop action and the board texture.

OutOfPosition

cardshark202 wrote:

Cos he will usually give up with any hand we beat on the river, given the preflop action and the board texture.

cant agree with this, ok so we check call him on the turn and then check the river, sooooo weak, i know id bet the river in this spot and i suspect most would

cardshark202

OutOfPosition wrote:

cant agree with this, ok so we check call him on the turn and then check the river, sooooo weak, i know id bet the river in this spot and i suspect most would

I thought the hand was 3bet or 4bet preflop? What do you think I have if I check the river in a 3 or 4bet pot? Once I called the turn, do you really want to try bluff there, when the worst hand I could realistically have is KK

OutOfPosition

cardshark202 wrote:

I thought the hand was 3bet or 4bet preflop? What do you think I have if I check the river in a 3 or 4bet pot? Once I called the turn, do you really want to try bluff there, when the worst hand I could realistically have is KK

there is over 200$ out there and you could realistically be against AK the way the hand played out. Its very strong to follow up with a river bet in this spot and more than not would be enough to win the pot, like u said you would muck the kings here as would a high % of people

cardshark202

Check the preflop action again, wtf could you have that doesnt beat AK, and you don't know your opp will fold KK here.

Backstreet Moyes

Ace2007 wrote:

you mean there are two 4 of clubs - wow :eek: :eek:

Its partly too comments like this that i dont post much hands on here the hand is from memory i cant exactly remember the suit i jus made it up as it has no irrelevance to how the hand is played out what suit it was unless it was the 4s. What is with all the comments on here lately like this little remarks at peoples posts or how they play hands instead of offering advice or discussing the hand. If your not going add anything uselful then dont respond.

kryogen

the pre flop action is fine, you want to narrow his range when you are going to be playing the pot out of position or take it there and then. i disagree with shoving for $360 after villain makes it $20,what the hell is gonna call you that you are beating from a tight player? from any player except a massive donk in fact!

the flop is horrible, as has been stated 3/4 hands that you can put him on are now beating you. check call the flop was fine, getting the turn card free was a bonus,his turn bet should only be raised if you know exactly what you are going to do when he shoves, which he probably will. if im that unwilling to let the hand go, i check call down. nothing will call a raise that you are beating realistically.

whats your table image? would AQ be in his range for coming over the top of you? i highly doubt he has it as AQ has to bet that flop anyway. at best if you are saying he is such a tight player, you are beating AK, anything else has you crushed right now. check call down if its cheap enough, and move on!

RichardB2

I'm sure this post will just advertise my absolute donkeyness at ring games,
strictly a tournament player so far,
but could I find out why his range cannot include AQ or 10's
without being abused from on high :-)
Also if these hands were plausible, I'm assuming they're not but play along,
would a c/f or 120ish so raise on a free turn, if it came, not be valid?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Mr.Plough

Nuts102 wrote:

Its partly too comments like this that i dont post much hands on here the hand is from memory i cant exactly remember the suit i jus made it up as it has no irrelevance to how the hand is played out what suit it was unless it was the 4s. What is with all the comments on here lately like this little remarks at peoples posts or how they play hands instead of offering advice or discussing the hand. If your not going add anything uselful then dont respond.

ignore it and keep posting

cardshark202

Nuts102 wrote:

Its partly too comments like this that i dont post much hands on here the hand is from memory i cant exactly remember the suit i jus made it up as it has no irrelevance to how the hand is played out what suit it was unless it was the 4s. What is with all the comments on here lately like this little remarks at peoples posts or how they play hands instead of offering advice or discussing the hand. If your not going add anything uselful then dont respond.

Jesus man, don't take things so seriously

Ace2007

it was a simple joke - dont' need to lose the head, i said earlier on what i'd do on the flop,either c/r or c/f....

Tar.Aldarion

I open fold flop.