Calling all non-nits: 5-10 NLH cash hand

Flipper

no hand history cos I can't find it. 5-10 6-max on pokerstars. Villain thinks i'm a nit because I misclicked a river call in a small pot calling with K-high which was good.

I'm on the button playing 600. He makes it 30 from the CO playing 1000. I call (?) with KsJd. The blinds pass. The flop comes 4s6sJs. He bets 70. We?

nicnicnic

Flipper wrote:

no hand history cos I can't find it. 5-10 6-max on pokerstars. Villain thinks i'm a nit because I misclicked a river call in a small pot calling with K-high which was good.

I'm on the button playing 600. He makes it 30 from the CO playing 1000. I call (?) with KsJd. The blinds pass. The flop comes 4s6sJs. He bets 70. We?

ask yourself " what would bops do " then jam it

DemocAnarchis

Call, check fold to a large bet on a non spade turn, shove a blank river if he checks the turn

Captain Tom

DemocAnarchis wrote:

Call, check fold to a large bet on a non spade turn

he's in position.

call flop.

he thinks you're a nit cause you called with k high? wouldnt this have the opposite effect?

also reads on opponant would help.

DeadParrot

nothing too wrong with the call
I'd be tempted to raise
A jam would be silly

Ste05

Flipper wrote:

Villain thinks i'm a Calling Station/ Donk because I misclicked a river call in a small pot calling with K-high which was good.

FYP, I presume?? A nit is someone that is really really tight, not one who makes hero calls with K high...

As for the hand, pretty easy raise and try to get AI, you only have 60BB's....

cardshark202

A few points:

1) Don't play shortstacked
2) Fold preflop
3) Call flop, shove turn

gigetheman

nicky if it was bops turn to act he would look at u and smile while pushing at the same time

Gholimoli

i dont really like rasing here that much.
if you had the As then i would say raise every time but i think i prefer a call here(raising still certainly an option).

if you call that makes the pot around 200 and you have 500 left.
this gives you options on the turn.

on the turn if he shoves im more than likely calling.
if he checks im checking behind.
if he bets i shove.

Ste05

I raise this flop almost always because we either have the best hand or the best draw, possibly even both, either way I want to get AI there and then. We have good equity in the pot, if another heart falls we're either not going to get paid off or we'll be beaten, either way, I think this is a ridiculously easy raise. There's no more bluffs to pick off by calling an re-evaluating.

What do people see as the benefits of calling here??

To raise the turn when our equity reduces if we get AI?? If he has AsA, AsJ or Axs sobeit, just be glad we're short stacking...

Also I'd fold or raise this Pre-flop, leaning heavily towards folding.

Gholimoli

Ste05 wrote:

I raise this flop almost always because we either have the best hand or the best draw, possibly even both, either way I want to get AI there and then. We have good equity in the pot, if another heart falls we're either not going to get paid off or we'll be beaten, either way, I think this is a ridiculously easy raise. There's no more bluffs to pick off by calling an re-evaluating.

What do people see as the benefits of calling here??

To raise the turn when our equity reduces if we get AI?? If he has AsA, AsJ or Axs sobeit, just be glad we're short stacking...

Also I'd fold or raise this Pre-flop, leaning heavily towards folding.

if the money is going to get all in eventually then it does not matter whether its going in on the flop or turn.

you dont always have the best hand or the best draw as your draw is not nut and nither is your hand.

the problem with saying that if he has AsA,AsJ then so be it,is that thoes are the only likely hands he is willing to get it all in there with.

opr

Gholimoli wrote:

if the money is going to get all in eventually then it does not matter whether its going in on the flop or turn.

Of course it matters in this case as we don't know if its going to get all in and this changes. The turn card may have a huge impact on both our hand and the Villians hand. Thus meaning equitys and FE may change on the turn.
Thier are times he may call a raise on the flop and times he will not on the turn and and vise versa thier are times he may fold on the flop but not on the turn.

Opr

phantom_lord

i'd just call.

Gholimoli

opr wrote:

Of course it matters in this case as we don't know if its going to get all in and this changes. The turn card may have a huge impact on both our hand and the Villians hand. Thus meaning equitys and FE may change on the turn.
Thier are times he may call a raise on the flop and times he will not on the turn and and vise versa thier are times he may fold on the flop but not on the turn.

Opr

you didnt get what im saying.
if the money is suppose to go in then your equity does not change whether it's on the turn or flop.
its not like you are going to fold anything on the turn (maybe an A ).
also FE does not really count here as you are hardley getting a better hand to fold on the flop or on the turn.
so your over all EV remains the same.

the difference between the two plays IMO is the times he bets on the turn with the worse hand thinking you are drawing.

with given stacks if he calls a raise on the turn he will be getting it all in on the turn.
a raise from us would be like 230,240,250 that would make the pot,nearly 500 .
that means he has to call 250 to win 750 on the turn.getting 3:1 i dont see him folding any hand there that he called the flop with do you?

bops

raise in an attempt to induce a push (and smile of course)

is 60 BB's shortstacking?? i wouldn't have thought so!!

opr

Gholimoli wrote:

you didnt get what im saying.
if the money is suppose to go in then your equity does not change whether it's on the turn or flop.
its not like you are going to fold anything on the turn (maybe an A ).
also FE does not really count here as you are hardley getting a better hand to fold on the flop or on the turn.
so your over all EV remains the same.

the difference between the two plays IMO is the times he bets on the turn with the worse hand thinking you are drawing.

G,

Maybe i am not thinking about this right but as far as i take you are referring to a sitution were the Villians hand will not really change no matter what comes on the turn. This is not true in this hand.

Lets say he has Ax of spades he may fold to a raise on the flop but if we call and get in on spade turn things are very different. Hands that may fold the flop like lets say AA with no spade may not fold the turn.

Its not a situation were the turn will not rarely change what Villian has and his action thus meaning that the money was always going to go in anyways as it was destinated too.
In this case the turn can influence if it does go in or not.

Opr

Ste05

The turn changes lots of stuff in this hand. Our money is going in regardless, but his may not be. Our money goes in better on the flop then it does on almost any turn, beit a spade or a non spade. A spade turn means he is more likely to only go in with As (folding lots of hands that would have gone in on the flop) and a non spade means if he has us beaten we have less chance of making our flush. Our EV reduces on the turn.

He also might fold AA or KK (no spade) on the flop, it's just such a better move, it doesn't really bother me we're not drawing to the nuts, because if he has the As then besides a cooler hand (AA or AJ [EDIT: or Axs obviously, but I'm not trying to get away cheaply from that hand 60BB's deep]) we have the best hand now and want to charge him.

If he just has the lone As he'll probably check the turn, which I presume we are too, yet will go AI on the flop.

Can anyone who is advocating calling the flop explain why, this seems like such a no brainer raise to me, especially this shallow??

Flipper

cardshark, I'm shortish because I don't play a lot of cash NLH and don't consider myself terribly good. Why am I playing 5-10 then? I'm spinning up.

Anyway, I called. Turn was an 8c. He checked. Is this a good spot to bet?

Captain Tom

yeah i bet here.

ste i generally call flop to induce a second barrel to try and fold out hands like 77-99 w/o a spade or Asx. also in the hope that in this spot now he puts us on Asx /KsQ or whatever and calls down light. and i really dount he ever folds AA/KK w/o a spade when stacks are so shallow.

stars 5/10 games play very aggressive. he raised in l/p and continuation bet the flop. his range is still pretty wide and i dont mind giving him a chance to put more money in the pot while we have a relatively strong hand.

cardshark202

Yeah bet is good on the turn, if he calls and checks the river i would shove for value.

breadmonkey

cardshark202 wrote:

Yeah bet is good on the turn, if he calls and checks the river i would shove for value.

Just for my own education, why can't this be stack-a-donk stuff?

Flipper

I decided not to bet. I discussed this with Eoghan O Dea and Norwich Fan Rob chose the same line as me. We checked down the river which was a 7x (putting a 4-card straight out there). He mucked As6x.

I questioned the hand after seeing just how big his hand was on the flop. I was wondering which is the optimum line.

AmarilloFats

Flipper wrote:

no hand history cos I can't find it. 5-10 6-max on pokerstars. Villain thinks i'm a nit because I misclicked a river call in a small pot calling with K-high which was good.

I'm on the button playing 600. He makes it 30 from the CO playing 1000. I call (?) with KsJd. The blinds pass. The flop comes 4s6sJs. He bets 70. We?

Wouldn't calling with K high make you appear to be the antithesis of a nit!?

What gholi said - a raise on the flop will not get a better hand to fold, but -lots of worse hands will call here - 77s 88 99 TT xAs.

flop call and rr all in if he bets turn .. Or bet turn for value if he checks.
But depending on villain and your image commiting on flop could be good.

cardshark202

breadmonkey wrote:

Just for my own education, why can't this be stack-a-donk stuff?

Well if he crai on the turn it could be but we at least have outs there. If he just calls, it very unlikely we are beaten unless he has the nuts

mrflash

i would buddy list this guy, he will have you down as a calling station, you could make a packet off this guy, the misclick and no raising even when you hit the j in the next hand will have him totally confused. i would imagine he will have you down as a total nit, and easy money for him.

Norwich Fan Rob

flipper, as discussed u played the hand perfectly to win the most when ahead and lose the least when behind.

the call on the flop is marginal, folding is slightly better, but 6 handed in pos, the call is "ok".

flat calling on the flop is the best line, u have a strong hand, but a raise will only get called by a hand that is ahead of u, and calling will make villian think, (a) u might have a draw with As, or (b) will encourage him to fire again.

checking the turn is the best line, this is imperitive for pot control, again we have a 1 pair hand, betting here again only gets called by a hand that has us beat, and now it looks even more like we are on a draw, taking this line will allow us to call a pot bet on the river from villian, (a) as we have induced a bluff and (b), if we are behind, we can showdown as cheaply as possible.

jamming this, or trying to get this all in really doesnt seem like a good play, what do we expect to get called by that we can beat?

with this line, we control the pot as much as possible, whilst giving the villian every chance to bluff at the same time, thus winning the max when we are ahead and more importantly, losing the least with our 1 pair hand when we are behind.

cardshark202

Don't agree with much of that Rob, folding the flop would be terrible here, this is a pretty good flop for our hand, vs a standard villain here who will have raised and cbet with a wide range on the flop. With only 60bbs, there should be very few scenarios where we should fold here. Betting the turn is good because he won't have us beaten very often and we might get value from worse jacks/the ace of spades. If he just calls and checks the river then it is a pretty clear value shove imo

EDIT Just seen you meant preflop about folding lol. That makes sense. I don't think its marginal though, I think its quite bad

Kobraki

Think flop play is fine, im inclined to bet the turn though, about 150... I would probably fold if he came over the top, as he is unlikely to be bluffing since you called him earlier with K high...

Norwich Fan Rob

lol we never tend to agree on these things reggie, i guess we play quite different styles.........u really think we get called by many worse hands if we tank the river.......

anything other than checking the turn is poor in my opinion for reasons ive mentioned

cardshark202

Yeah we play different. Ah well, we'll agree to disagree

fuzzbox

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

flipper, as discussed u played the hand perfectly to win the most when ahead and lose the least when behind.

the call on the flop is marginal, folding is slightly better, but 6 handed in pos, the call is "ok".

flat calling on the flop is the best line, u have a strong hand, but a raise will only get called by a hand that is ahead of u, and calling will make villian think, (a) u might have a draw with As, or (b) will encourage him to fire again.

checking the turn is the best line, this is imperitive for pot control, again we have a 1 pair hand, betting here again only gets called by a hand that has us beat, and now it looks even more like we are on a draw, taking this line will allow us to call a pot bet on the river from villian, (a) as we have induced a bluff and (b), if we are behind, we can showdown as cheaply as possible.

jamming this, or trying to get this all in really doesnt seem like a good play, what do we expect to get called by that we can beat?

with this line, we control the pot as much as possible, whilst giving the villian every chance to bluff at the same time, thus winning the max when we are ahead and more importantly, losing the least with our 1 pair hand when we are behind.

I disagree with lots of this.
I think an argument can be made either way about the flop, but I really think that a turn bet is far superior to a turn check.

Ste05

I disagree with pretty much all of it, but I've said it all up thread so don't want to repeat myself. [LOL, I ended up doing it anyway :rolleyes:]

I slightly agree with the turn check, but for completely different reasons and certainly not pot control, in this hand when only 60BB's deep pot control is redundant. We want to get our money in as best as possible. No-one is ever bluffing or betting a weaker made hand on that turn once we call, Ever!! The only slight chance is maybe As semi-bluffs but not normally because they'll be faced with a push almost always.

If I'm betting the turn I'd prefer to raise the flop almost always, any hand that plays on after the turn would do the same on the flop and on the flop we have greater expectation almost always, no matter what he has; a set, As, AA, KK (no spade) made flush, etc. etc. etc. as far as I can see there's no hand that is playing on on the turn (no matter what falls) that wouldn't do so on the flop, and since no-one is ever bluffing or betting a weaker hand on the turn, I'll say it again and I know I'm on my own here, but to me this is such a simple flop raise.

I'm not explaining this well, and I know loads of people disagree with me so I'm not going to ram it down people's throats anymore, but I'll raise this flop 100% of the time and expect to make more money in the long term then by just calling.

RedJoker

After the king high hand villain has us pegged as a calling station/donk. He is never never bluffing the turn or river if he has any sense at all.

Betting the turn gets value from flush draws and weaker jacks, which are definitely in a CO openers range.

He played the A6 fine if he thinks you're a calling station, as a turn bet is just burning money from his POV and he prob doesn't expect you to bet either.

KJ is one of the worst hands to call with preflop here imo, but what do I know I play 1/10th the stakes.