Residential windpower with no batteries..

zod

Video here


Didn't know you could do this without an expensive battery set .. does the ESB allow you to put electricity back into the system ?

The wind generator code named Skystream is set to revolutionize the residential micro-generation market and will be available in Ireland in early ’07. Further details are available through the Skystream website.

Email: info@sunstreamenergy.ie
Address: Sunstream Energy, 45 Newtown Hill, Tramore, Co. Waterford, Ireland.

Cuauhtemoc

As far as i know the electricity you generate is subtracted from your bill but i'd need to check.
But...if you generate surplus they won't buy it off you. Fairly sure of that.

You also won't have any power if there is a power cut as the turbine will shut down to protect any esb workers working on the line.

10-10-20

A couple of points which have been mentioned in previous posts.

The ESB has no facility to buy-back power from residential customers.
The turbine will remain seperate from the ESB power meter in the residence. The meter will record only the power taken from the ESB by the customer. The turbine will reduce this somewhat.
I believe that the ESB meters have inbuilt protection against the turbine backfeeding into the grid when a power loss situation occurs. This means that the turbine will remain operational and will supply you power (while the wind blows..)
Often, these devices aren't designed for the Irish climate, where more gusty winds occur and can damage the interal workings of similar turbines. While I don't know whether this device may suffer from the same problems (gearbox failure etc...) it should be taken as a consideration.

And finally, in the absence of batteries, you have no method of storing the power produced when your house in unoccupied. While the batteries add a large element of cost to such a project, they have an important function.

I'm in no way against these devices, I'd love to have one myself, but I'm just stating fact as I know it. :-)

Khannie

Anyone got a cost? I'd definitely consider this. We live in a windy spot. Would love to get some of our electricity from wind. The lack of batteries wouldn't be a big issue for me. Presumably you could add them later.

gpjordanf1

Khannie wrote:

Anyone got a cost? I'd definitely consider this. We live in a windy spot. Would love to get some of our electricity from wind. The lack of batteries wouldn't be a big issue for me. Presumably you could add them later.

Here ya go, was just looking into this myself and found this company in my locality. Seems like alot of attractive options. Must do some more research.
www.surfacepower.com

Boggle

Here ya go, was just looking into this myself and found this company in my locality. Seems like alot of attractive options. Must do some more research.
www.surfacepower.com

There's alot of things you might buy in China but a wind turbine shouldn't be one of them...
BEsides you can buy the same turbines from other companies for less... (Met a guy the other night who did - he said it failed after less than a month!!)

gpjordanf1

Boggle wrote:

There's alot of things you might buy in China but a wind turbine shouldn't be one of them...
BEsides you can buy the same turbines from other companies for less... (Met a guy the other night who did - he said it failed after less than a month!!)

Thanks for the advice!

Have you any pointers for me? Where? What reliable companies? Contacts etc

Much appreciated

2 stroke

gpjordanf1 wrote:

Here ya go, was just looking into this myself and found this company in my locality. Seems like alot of attractive options. Must do some more research.
www.surfacepower.com

Yes. do some more research. I almost bought one of their systems last year, but where was the turbine made? I found aparently identical systems for sale in several countries and they weren't exported from Ireland.

probe

10-10-20 wrote:

The ESB has no facility to buy-back power from residential customers.

Rubbish! It is called the national grid, which ends up with a cable running into virtually every premises. All they need to do is change to meter and define the control systems that must be in place to protect the network in a two-way street situation.

.probe

zod

Khannie wrote:

Anyone got a cost? I'd definitely consider this. We live in a windy spot. Would love to get some of our electricity from wind. The lack of batteries wouldn't be a big issue for me. Presumably you could add them later.

The lack of batteries is the real seller! Batteries add initial cost and also recurring cost ( every 6-8 years afaik), with this system you use the national grid as your batteries ( for free ! )

Cost according to http://www.sunstreamenergy.ie/ is

"Skystream is due to be certified for connection to European grid in August. We expect to have the first Skystream installed in Waterford in September. Installed price ex VAT @21% and ground works will be in the region €7k to €7.5k."

jawlie

It is not a great idea to try to run lights or a tv or a fridge or most home appliances directly from a wind generator, due to the fluctuating amounts of power available. Indeed the large variations in voltages can damage many appliances. Generally speaking, the usual use for wind power in a domestic environment is to heat the electric elements in hot water cylinder, as fluctuations matter less and do not cause damage to the elements but merely vary their temperature.

Batteries are not really a good solution as they are very expensive, very inefficient, and don't store much power. For example, you couldn't run a fridge or freezer off batteries as, when they inevitably run out due to no wind for two days in the middle of summer while you are away for the weekend, you know what will happen!

Wind generators are all well and good, but not for a reliable supply.

Khannie

zod wrote:

"Skystream is due to be certified for connection to European grid in August. We expect to have the first Skystream installed in Waterford in September. Installed price ex VAT @21% and ground works will be in the region €7k to €7.5k."

So around 9K after VAT. That's pretty ouchies. How long do they expect the turbine to work for? I found that site / sites terrible. Couldn't find the information you copy / pasted.

zod

jawlie wrote:

It is not a great idea to try to run lights or a tv or a fridge or most home appliances directly from a wind generator, due to the fluctuating amounts of power available. Indeed the large variations in voltages can damage many appliances. Generally speaking, the usual use for wind power in a domestic environment is to heat the electric elements in hot water cylinder, as fluctuations matter less and do not cause damage to the elements but merely vary their temperature.

Batteries are not really a good solution as they are very expensive, very inefficient, and don't store much power. For example, you couldn't run a fridge or freezer off batteries as, when they inevitably run out due to no wind for two days in the middle of summer while you are away for the weekend, you know what will happen!

Wind generators are all well and good, but not for a reliable supply.

*blinks*

did you even look at the video ?

The power is drawn from the wind generator first at a constant 220V, when theres not enough power (low wind) it draws the excess from the ESB, when theres too much (high wind) it gives back to the ESB.

zod

Khannie wrote:

So around 9K after VAT. That's pretty ouchies. How long do they expect the turbine to work for? I found that site / sites terrible. Couldn't find the information you copy / pasted.

I emailed them for that info.

Is there any government incentives for this sort of thing ?

Do-more

Before the election it was indicated that there were moves afoot for the ESB to change it's policy on grid-tied home energy generation, with the Greens now hopefully pushing the agenda, there might just be some changes in the next while.... just don't hold you breath;)

Boggle

Have you any pointers for me? Where? What reliable companies? Contacts etc

I wont go plugging any compainies on boards as its against rules but I will say that there are very few companies (ie one that I know of) in the the country who are any good (most comanies are basically salesmen with no technical background) so before you buy off anyone make sure they know what they are talking about; ie ring them and talk with them, don't emai l as anyone can BS over email (bit like this!!).
Tip: keep an eye out over the coming months as we're developing a next-gen 1.5kW-2kW (we are rating at 5m/s so this equates to over 6kW at 10.5m/s) with a target RRP of just over 12k, including GT-inv and 10m guyless monopole tower, and with a view to seriously reduce this price as we completely indigenise manufacture, so serious changes are coming about in the industry. A roof munted system with a target 5m/s output of 0.6-1.2kW is also in the works but I can't yet give a target price).

"Skystream is due to be certified for connection to European grid in August. We expect to have the first Skystream installed in Waterford in September. Installed price ex VAT @21% and ground works will be in the region €7k to €7.5k."

A hell of alot of money for what I think is just a 1.8kW wind turbine.

It is not a great idea to try to run lights or a tv or a fridge or most home appliances directly from a wind generator, due to the fluctuating amounts of power available. Indeed the large variations in voltages can damage many appliances.

Try getting a decent inverter - mod sine wave are grand for very basic apps but don't put your expensive TV on it. (only applies to bat sys)

Generally speaking, the usual use for wind power in a domestic environment is to heat the electric elements in hot water cylinder, as fluctuations matter less and do not cause damage to the elements but merely vary their temperature.

That is an absolute wast of a wind turbine so please do not recommend it to anyone. Add 1m2 of solar vac to your roof - cheaper and more effective.

Batteries are not really a good solution as they are very expensive, very inefficient, and don't store much power. For example, you couldn't run a fridge or freezer off batteries as, when they inevitably run out due to no wind for two days in the middle of summer while you are away for the weekend, you know what will happen!

Again, this is about sizing your battery bank or getting at least a little clever in how you design a system - adding solar can help reduce battery bank size but solar is far too expensive at present.

Before the election it was indicated that there were moves afoot for the ESB to change it's policy on grid-tied home energy generation, with the Greens now hopefully pushing the agenda, there might just be some changes in the next while.... just don't hold you breath

Having talked to CER, they are / were then finalising the AIEM before moving onto anything else. The next step is netmetering (or some derivative) whereby they can not only measure what power you pull from the grid, what power you push onto the grid but they can can tell when you did it without the need for any metermen. This opens up the market for you to get paid for exporting energy but also opens the possibility to punish you for using at peak times by varying rates at any time of the day. (Not good for the average joe bloggs who comes home at 7 and has no choice but to use power then.)

Is there any government incentives for this sort of thing ?

I hope they don't bring in any grants - like solar geothermal, woodchip etc, it only attracts cowboys (who add the grant value to the price) to a market and can potentially ruin the industry. Zero VAT rating would be a far better option.

How long do they expect the turbine to work for?

Some questions when shopping:
- Are blades balanced?
- Are windings marine spec?
- Bearing type?
- Stainless steel components?
- Who makes inverter and what is its efficiency at low power ratings?
- Was any of it made in China?

Good turbines have stated lifetime of about 20 years but with maintenance will last far beyond that.

Hope this is of any use - am really worried about the wind market getting tainted by muppets who are only in it for the quick buck so, again, ring around and don't be afraid to ask hard questions cos its alot of money to throw down the toilet on a bad system...

Boggle

Oh yeah, just looked at sunstream's site and when I see:

(in relation to Geothermal:) Low running cost - you save up to 80% compared to oil

I worry cos everyone I meet who actually has geothermal says quite differently...

10-10-20

probe wrote:

Rubbish! It is called the national grid, which ends up with a cable running into virtually every premises. All they need to do is change to meter and define the control systems that must be in place to protect the network in a two-way street situation.

.probe

I call for an inquest! Where and how?
What I said was that "The ESB has no facility to buy-back power from residential customers.". Sure electricity can be passed back into the grid via the incoming wire, but the ESB don't offer wind-back meters to residential customers.

Do-more wrote:

Before the election it was indicated that there were moves afoot for the ESB to change it's policy on grid-tied home energy generation, with the Greens now hopefully pushing the agenda, there might just be some changes in the next while.... just don't hold you breath;)

I believe the above is correct. Whether we'll see it or not in 10 years remains unknown!

maniac101

Agree. Smart meters will be available sooner or later, but you can expect the ESB to drag their heels on this one. Far more contentious is what the ESB will actually pay for electricity fed back to the grid, if anything at all. A smart meter as envisaged by the ESB certainly will not be a meter that simply counts backwards when you're feeding into the grid! The ESB will pay you far less for what you generate than what they will charge you for what you consume from the grid. So batteries or electric elements for hot water may be end up being a more attractive option financially.

Currently commercial wind generators get around 5.2c per kwh, which is about a third of what a residential consumer pays for a unit. It's unlikely that the electricity supplier will pay in excess of that for any excess electricity generated by a residential wind turbine. Indeed they will have strong arguments why they should pay considerably less. A modern wind farm has to adhere to a grid code, and the grid operator can stipulate for instance how much real and reactive power the farm has to deliver. For newer wind farms the TSO can even disconnect the wind farm remotely if it sees the need, (although this hasn't happened much – yet!). By contrast, the grid operator has no control over electricity generated at potentially thousands private residences and fed into the grid. This makes the operation of the grid more difficult.

I'm guessing that to fit an appropriate smart meter, once it's available, you'll have to dig deep too, unless the Government subsidises it. The ESB already charges several hundred Euro to change a conventional meter to a night meter AND they have a higher standing charge for the night meter.

zod wrote:

The wind generator code named Skystream is set to revolutionize the residential micro-generation market and will be available in Ireland in early ’07.

I wonder what's supposed to be so revolutionary about it - is it the lack of batteries? All wind turbines can operate without batteries. There's nothing revolutionary about not selling the batteries!

10-10-20

Yes, the buy-back rates will be meaningless unless you have the capital and equipment to get into economies of scale, and that ain't happening on a residential connection! The only way to work this out is to sit down a price the full install, meter, connection etc, and factor in the buy-back rate in Excel and see whether batteries or wind-back meters are more cost-effective. I sincerely believe that there will be no benefit in a grid connection unless you can sell back at least 25,000W or approx €1000 per annum.

Keeks

Just to clarify one small thing.

The ESB have NO control over the electicity market here in Ireland. The people who control this is the CER. They set the prices, control who can or can't but,sell or trade electricity. And at the moment they are considering micro generation and pricing etc.

http://www.cer.ie/en/renewables-micro-generation.aspx

ircoha

By boggle
I wont go plugging any compainies on boards as its against rules but I will say that there are very few companies (ie one that I know of) in the the country who are any good (most comanies are basically salesmen with no technical background) so before you buy off anyone make sure they know what they are talking about; ie ring them and talk with them, don't emai l as anyone can BS over email (bit like this!!).
Tip: keep an eye out over the coming months as we're developing a next-gen 1.5kW-2kW (we are rating at 5m/s so this equates to over 6kW at 10.5m/s) with a target RRP of just over 12k, including GT-inv and 10m guyless monopole tower, and with a view to seriously reduce this price as we completely indigenise manufacture, so serious changes are coming about in the industry. A roof munted system with a target 5m/s output of 0.6-1.2kW is also in the works but I can't yet give a target price).

Well if that is not plugging a company then I dont know what is.

Much of what is contained in this post thus far is a mix of slick wording, economy with the facts and gross mis-representation.

I dont intend dealing with them all with the exception of the suggestion that zero vat will work better than grants. This is crap. In a market/free economy the market price is what people can afford to pay and grants and zero vat etc all go to benefit the supplier of the goods, not the consumer.

While I am not a big fan of the ESB, it is important to realise that it cannot rely on residentially sourced solar/wind etc when doing its calc for peak power requirements. Therefore it has to have sufficient reserve power to meet the peak requirements on the assumption that there will be little or no solar/wind. This standby plant is not cheap

The issue with solar/wind is storing the output for when you need it,
Batteries are not that suitable for obvious reasons.

The current trend in Europe is to use very well insulated water cylinders to store the power. This is in part due to two important features of water; it is relatively cheap and has a very good specific heat capacity [SHC] of 4.2 which is, on a price and safety basis is the best around.
[Hydrogen in gas form and Ammonia in liquid form are better.]

See http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=500&docID=-1 to start with

The math is as follows:
Heat = mass × specific heat capacity × temperature change

So the higher the SHC then the more heat can be stored for the same amount of mass.

As a matter of interest before u look it up, is the SHC of Aluminium, copper, steel, higher or lower than water?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_heat_capacity#Table_of_specific_heat_capacities

I have been in a house in Europe which is 90% passive, using a number of large well insulated water tanks in the cellar to store the heat from the wind/solar/pv/geo sources.