2/5 PLO Hand. Anyone like this line?

Flipper

No hand history but talked about it with Tony Cooney last night and it got me thinking.

2/5 PLO 6 max. I'm in the BB (500) with KQ44. Folded to the SB (who just sat in with 500) and he makes it 15. I call. Flop 477. He bets 30 and I quickly min-raise to 60. He goes into the tank and makes it 210. I quickly ship the lot. We like?

What do you think of the min-raise? Does it look like a cheap bluff that would get an AAxx hand to ship?

[nicK]

Flipper wrote:

No hand history but talked about it with Tony Cooney last night and it got me thinking.

2/5 PLO 6 max. I'm in the BB (500) with KQ44. Folded to the SB (who just sat in with 500) and he makes it 15. I call. Flop 477. He bets 30 and I quickly min-raise to 60. He goes into the tank and makes it 210. I quickly ship the lot. We like?

What do you think of the min-raise? Does it look like a cheap bluff that would get an AAxx hand to ship?

there are so many things i dislike about this hand i don't know where to begin.. let's make a start, was this online or live?

Flipper

Don't see why it matters but... online. Let's have you...

[nicK]

ok, and before i get too intrusive.. could you explain the quick min-raise and the quick all-in?.. you still shooting for the cheap bluff look here?

personally, i prefer a potsized raise on the flop.. i think it achieves a whole lot more than a minraise in this situation..

(sorry about lack of explanation, i'll come back to this tomorrow, my access to the internet has unfortunately come to an end for the night)

RoundTower

I don't like this line and don't think it's particularly likely to make him stick it in with AA. Do you have any history with him? I usually make it 95 or so intending to get it in if he shoves, if he is very tight I might make it 95 intending to fold. Also sometimes I call if I think he can have a very wide range here, because I will call with a lot of crap here as well.

Flipper

[nicK] wrote:

ok, and before i get too intrusive.. could you explain the quick min-raise and the quick all-in?.. you still shooting for the cheap bluff look here?

personally, i prefer a potsized raise on the flop.. i think it achieves a whole lot more than a minraise in this situation..

(sorry about lack of explanation, i'll come back to this tomorrow, my access to the internet has unfortunately come to an end for the night)

I'd like to hear your reasoning tbh. Personally, I think that potting the flop is bad. I min-raise to make it look like a buff and make the villain think that I have enough behind to fold. If I pot to 120, I'm saying to him that I don't mind getting it in. 120 is never a bluff here without a minimum of a 7xxx hand.

Flipper

RoundTower wrote:

I don't like this line and don't think it's particularly likely to make him stick it in with AA. Do you have any history with him? I usually make it 95 or so intending to get it in if he shoves, if he is very tight I might make it 95 intending to fold. Also sometimes I call if I think he can have a very wide range here, because I will call with a lot of crap here as well.

I've no history with him but if he is familiar with me, he'll know that I can raise pretty light/with nothing here some of the time. I see what you are saying and I don't think that line is bad either. I personally hate calling as you are in the dark with the rest of the hand. I mean, what cards do we not want to come off? Do we make up or mind on the flop as to if we'll go broke if no A or K comes? What do you do from there?

RoundTower

If I just call I hardly ever go broke here, I would usually just call turn as well and if he pots river probably make a tough fold. If you intend to raise light a lot in this spot then raising here is better.

Ace2007

why did u go all in????

even by the off chance ur ahead on the flop, he has alot of outs, min raise was also quite bafd tbh cause that tells you nothing...

I think the main mistake was calling pre flop, surprised no one else has mentioned that...

dougee19

Ace2007 wrote:

why did u go all in????

even by the off chance ur ahead on the flop, he has alot of outs, min raise was also quite bafd tbh cause that tells you nothing...

I think the main mistake was calling pre flop, surprised no one else has mentioned that...

do you play omaha???

if u do... then stop!!!


even by the off chance he's ahead???? only 77 or 74 is beating him and its very unlikely that his opponent has that and probably wouldnt play it that strong.
he will be pushing with the lone 7 here and have a chance to hit a house, but he will also be pushing with aces kings or maybe even queens here depending on your opponent,
so odds are ur ahead here and u have him drawing very slim half the time and have to dodge cards the other half...
i would always be pushing here...
and as for the min raise or pot raise... i dont like the pot raise, i think its too much to commit showing u have a good hand, only if ur opponent thinks ur on a stone cold bluff should he push by right here... min raise i also amen't too fond of, i do it against certain opponents but not all.
i'd prefer to raise in relation to stacks and pot, here for example i'd go for 80(ish), just a personal opinion obviously

dougee19

Ace2007 wrote:

only 74??

lets look at it this way - if you have 74 what would you do??? there is a strong chance ur opponent has a 7, therefore what are you going to do if an A comes you have no idea where you are - getting it in on the flop is defo the move.

the villian didn't know that flipper had only a house of 4's,

can i ask you this : would you have called pre flop - just out of interest?

if he has 74 then yeah he will, but odds are he doesnt..

and isnt everyone agreeing to push to flop??? dont know what u meant by saying
getting it in o the flop is defo the move
ur the only one who was against that earlier.....

and more than likely i'd have called there.. i like to see a lot of flops in omaha and heads up is always good.
if i have one suit its a definate call for me :D:D
loosey dougee

Flipper

Pre-flop isn't an issue. I'm calling 8 into 16 and will be in position for the whole hand. Combine that with the fact that we're playing stacks of 500 and that I think I'm a better player than him... That's why I call.

Ace, you have completely contradicted yourself. In your first post, you ask "why did I go all-in?" and in your second post, you say that getting it all in on the flop is the move. Make up your mind and tell us what your line would have been.

Ace2007

no i didn't - maybe my second post wasn't clear.

dougee said that if the villian had 77 or 74 he wouldn't play it that strong.
I was saying that if i was the villian and had 74 that i would be playing it that strong - for when he bet 30 and u made it 60- that would tell me you have a 7 at least, and therefore (if i had 74(villian)) and any card over 7 comes on the turn, i then have no idea where i am - and therefore the pot size bet of 210 is the right move... i honestly can't see him having AA,KK or QQ.

In ur situation - i would have flat called the 30, then turn bet would be 90, still not huge - so you can decided if you want to call that. Roundtower's line of thinking is the way i'd go...

luckylucky

Not so sure why some people are so dead against flipper's play here, a lot of players are not going to drop a lone 7 and his minraise could very well have tempted the guy into playing back with hands like AAxx as flipper said. It wouldn't be the usual way I'd play the hand but I don't see anything wrong with doing something a little different like flipper did. And as Dougee says the chances of him being behind are slim.

dougee19

forgot to mention why i dont min raise there actually...
if for example he has jj, there is a chance he'll call the min raise to hit the jack on the turn, and on the off chance he does hit it u go bust. i think the raise to 80 makes him more inclined to push with aces than the min raise

tipp86

i reckon correct push 77 never an option no way does he re raise most likely he is holding the 7 maybe a hand like 7 8 9 10,think you probably have to avoid but certinaly ahead on flop

DeadParrot

luckylucky wrote:

Not so sure why some people are so dead against flipper's play here, a lot of players are not going to drop a lone 7 and his minraise could very well have tempted the guy into playing back with hands like AAxx as flipper said. It wouldn't be the usual way I'd play the hand but I don't see anything wrong with doing something a little different like flipper did. And as Dougee says the chances of him being behind are slim.

I'm in the same boat here

Ace2007

I still don't get this min raising - for example if he does have AAxx, KKxx, etc,he'll probably flat call? i think dougee said this as well..

I get the impression that you want to get all ur money in the middle, therefore why not raise to 100, if he reraises and then your all in if not you take down the pot of 60 or so

The_Prof

Its nauseating to think that anybody would consider this hand to have been played terribly. Worst case scenario, the line Flipper took gave him a TINY bit less than maximum longterm expectation.

What we can argue here is what the optimal line would be, (giving serious consideration to the possibility that the one Flipper took is indeed best).

The call preflop is standard. This just cannot be debated. I mean sure he could have folded but I think main factors to consider here are game flow, opponent, etc once you know the obvious benefits of being HU to flop from BB vs SB's raise. So, we can assume Flipper is the one who knew best what to do preflop. No analysis/criticism is relevant.

On the flop, with those stacks, you're obviously delighted to stick it in every time after he c-bets the flop. Why?

Because, if you look at this hand from opp's angle -- you raise from SB into Flipper (who's defo capable of making moves - opp may well realise this), then you c-bet a flop that's unlikely to have hit you or him. This is a standard spot where if you get raised it's tough to defend well, especially with the given stacks. This is why a decent player will raise a good % of time with nothing there. Now, some players might defend trickily, by flatcalling flipper's flop raise o.o.p with AAxx intending to pick off the secondbarrel on the turn, but most will just decide if their hand is good and stick it all-in right then. Now, a lot of the time their push will force a fold out of Flipper because he will, indeed, have been making the necessary occasional bluff-steal on that flop. Therefore, the thought of even considering a fold on the flop when you have that incredibly profitable situation which your table image / good cards / good situation has led you to be in makes me want to throw up.

As for the size of the flop-raise, I think we can go back to the obvious problem of discussing a hand so superficially on a forum. It really does depend on the opponent, namely on his tendencies and the way he interprets each bet. Also, sometimes, against good enough opponents you gotta make all the different types of raises there with all different types of hands, to remain unpredictable at all times. Therefore, sometimes here I would raise pot (25% of time), other times I would raise to about $80 (45% of time) or so, and other times I would, as Flipper did, minraise. (30% of time).

I like the minraise against a lot of opponents because

1. it improves the chances of them bluff-reraising you and so you can either win a large part of their stack with no showdown or end up going allin to their repot and giving them 10-1 odds to call with a 4-out draw or something like that and probably stack them.

2. it's the cheapest bluff possible on the times that you don't have anything

3. it drives a lot of opponents on monkey tilt

disadvantages:

1. if you're looking to steal a lot of pots, then by minraising you may have trouble achieving this goal due to the "advantages".

Conclusion:

This hand is ridiculously standard, and I doubt any very good player could logically HATE Flipper's play.

RoundTower

I've talked to Flipper a little bit about this hand and I still disagree. Here's my summary.

Hardly anybody sits down at the table and stacks off here with AA on this flop on his second hand. Maybe if Flipper had been pushing him around all day, that would be a different matter. Probably you get one more bet half the time on average, no matter whether you call or raise.

If he has a weak hand (that will fold to a raise) it doesn't matter much if you call or raise. If you call he might hit a straight and pay you off another bet, but he also might hit an overfull and you will lose at least one more bet.

If he has 77xx or 74xx you will probably go broke on the flop. If you call maybe you don't always go broke.

So let's talk about if he has a 7. If he has a 7 you want to raise, you want to charge him now while you still have the best hand. If he has a good 7, something like AKJ7, he will probably want to get it in and will 3 bet you whatever you do. If he has a bad 7 like T887 he will probably call any raise but he will not be happy to get it in. So you should raise a large amount, not give him a cheap card.

Of course you have to balance this with your bluffs, because you will also raise here with nothing sometimes. I don't have any way to prove it but I think 90 to 95 is a good amount to make it in this spot if you are bluffing, from his point of view there will be an awkward amount of money left behind and he won't like to call with a marginal hand.

Finally, if you make it 95 and he calls and you get one more almost-pot sized bet out of him on the turn (a likely outcome if he has a bad 7xxx) you take well over half his stack. If you make it 60 and he calls, you are going to need to get value on two streets to win the same amount. Getting value with this hand on the river is difficult, it is often best to check behind.

Apparently a host of excellent players disagree with me (Prof, Flipper, Cooney is only the start) but I'd like to hear more about their reasons.

dougee19

if he has a-a-7-x then he has 4 less outs than x-x-x-7... just thought i'd show my great omaha skills there.
because its a likely scenario me thinks

kryogen

the pre flop play is standard, no debate needed there. i cant ever bring myself to min raise to be honest,ever! im actually one of the guys capable of going on monkey tilt when min raised

i think if im in the situation im 90% sure im ahead right now,he has to have 77 or 74 to be beating me so i will raise to 85 or 90. if he re raises again i ship it, if he flat calls i will re assess the turn and what it brings, but i see nothing wrong with your line here in general flipper. i believe roundtowers comments are valid also and to be honest you can make a good argument for both lines.

Ace2007,again i have to ask, are you for real?how can you question the preflop call? and how do you come to the conclusion flippers hand here is only ever going to be ahead on the off chance? and i agree with dougiee (for a change);) if you do play omaha,then quit please, for your own sake!

BOBBB

I can't see anything wrong with Mr.Flipper's play.