Certs, I'm changing one .223 for another, what's the deal?

johngalway

Hi folks,

I traded in my Tikka T3 .223, chose a Remington 700 VL SS Thumbhole also in .223.

Gunshop owner said it's a simple process of just amending the cert at the substation.

I rang the district station (I guess you'd call it that, where the supernintendo is based), and the garda there said that I would have to apply for an entirely new rifle?

Now he was honest about it and said he could be open to correction on it.

So what's the skinny on it? I'm not changing calibres, or actions. Just changing from a Tikka .223 to a Remington .223.

What do I say when I go to the substation?

Thanks in advance,

John

Vegeta

well John G I can only say that in the past I have had no problem changing one 12 guage for another. Also had no problems changing .22 for .22

It was done in a matter of minutes for me. Cant see why .223 bolt action to .223 bolt action should need a whole new application

Veg

johngalway

Veg, what process did they use for you? Did they take in your old cert, cross out the make and serial number and just write in the new make and serial number or what?

What I'm trying to find out is what to tell the garda on duty tonight/morning if he doesn't know the score on it. I know what I want to do in changing the rifles but what's their process for it.

The garda I talked to over the phone said they were currently making out the certs in Clifden, over two hundred of them.

I can't see the difficulty myself, or need for a new application, that makes no sense since they've already approved me for a .223 and I'm not looking for anything extra.

Vegeta

johngalway wrote:

Veg, what process did they use for you? Did they take in your old cert, cross out the make and serial number and just write in the new make and serial number or what?

This is exactly what they did and they stamped it too. It only took about 3-4 minutes from me walking in the door and walking back out with revised cert in hand and back to shop to collect gun.

johngalway

Was that a main or substation if you don't mind me asking Veg? I'll be dealing with a substation, the usual garda there is sound though, he's dealt with all my firearms certs since I got the shotgun first. Can they stamp them at the substation? The garda over the phone said the sargents deal with the certs in Clifden, maybe it'll have to go there for a few days. PITA not knowing stuff.

I've got that done for a .22 in a sub station with no hassle

Remmy

johngalway wrote:

I rang the district station (I guess you'd call it that, where the supernintendo is based), and the garda there said that I would have to apply for an entirely new rifle?

you think thats bad?I was applying for a .17 remington 700 got the application in then saw the exact same model .17 remington 700 in better nick in another place and i had to apply for a totally new licence.Even though the only thing different between the two guns is the serial numbers!:rolleyes: grr:rolleyes:

Remmy

boc121

Changed one 223 for another last month no problem.
He just amended the old cert and filled out a form for a new one.

johngalway

boc121 wrote:

Changed one 223 for another last month no problem.
He just amended the old cert and filled out a form for a new one.

That's exactly what I'm hoping for, you never thought of putting in for the guards did you?

zaitsev

Have also changed one model 223 for another this year without problems.
Both Steyr's different models the FO changed the serial number on the license and stamped it, took about five minutes.

Mind you it took about ten days to get hold of him..!!

rrpc

Look it's this simple, but there seems to be a bit of a palace revolution against the firearms act in the Phoenix Park and they're now blind, deaf and dumb to this particular section of the firearms acts:

1964 1 11

Change of firearm to which firearm certificate relates.
11.—(1) Subject to subsection (3) of this section, the Minister may substitute for the description of a firearm in a firearm certificate granted by him the description of another firearm and, upon such substitution, the certificate shall have effect in relation to that other firearm and shall not have effect in relation to the first-mentioned firearm.
(2) Subject to subsection (3) of this section, the Superintendent of any district or any member of the Garda Síochána in any district duly authorised to do so by the Superintendent of that district may substitute for the description of a firearm in a firearm certificate held by a person residing in that district the description of another firearm and, upon such substitution, the certificate shall have effect in relation to that other firearm and shall not have effect in relation to the first-mentioned firearm.
(3) A substitution under this section in a firearm certificate shall not be effected unless the rate of excise duty chargeable in respect of a renewal of the certificate after the substitution does not exceed the rate chargeable immediately before such substitution.

It's very clear. One firearm for another regardless of action, calibre, size, length, colour or what time of the year it is.

johngalway

I can't make head nor tails of that legalese rrpc but I'll take your word for it Thank you for taking the time to dig that out and post it for me

rrpc

You're welcome

It's just that many gardai are now saying you have to apply again when this is patently not the case.

It just says substitute the description for a firearm for the descripton of another firearm.

In other words change the cert from one firearm to another.

Unless the fee for the new cert is higher than the previous one, which means you can't substitute a rifle for a shotgun for example.

johngalway

It'd be rifle for rifle so shouldn't be a problem then same 38 Euro fee Thanks for the help

I have .223 rounds here and nothing to shoot them from, it's getting depressing Haven't as yet tracked down the garda who mans the local substation. Easier catch up with those lads out of Prison Break

rrpc

Remmy wrote:

you think thats bad?I was applying for a .17 remington 700 got the application in then saw the exact same model .17 remington 700 in better nick in another place and i had to apply for a totally new licence.Even though the only thing different between the two guns is the serial numbers!:rolleyes: grr:rolleyes:

Remmy

I've got a better one

25 years ago (gulp) I bought an air rifle, Six months after I bought it, it developed a fault and had to be replaced. I informed my local station and they scribbled out the old number and stamped the cert with the new number written in.

I had to tell them to change it at the next renewal as they hadn't updated their records which they duly did..... and the next year...... and the year after that........ and the year after that (this is starting to sound like the Ronseal ad )... and the year after that

And... yes you guessed it, 25 years later I'm still getting the renewals with the old number!

Our man in Havana

rrpc wrote:

You're welcome

It's just that many gardai are now saying you have to apply again when this is patently not the case.

It just says substitute the description for a firearm for the descripton of another firearm.

In other words change the cert from one firearm to another.

Unless the fee for the new cert is higher than the previous one, which means you can't substitute a rifle for a shotgun for example.

Can I use this to get the 100 round limit changed?

Keelan

What a lot of confusion, this one of the many reasons i gave up shooting.

Keelan.

Trojan911

boc121 wrote:

Changed one 223 for another last month no problem.
He just amended the old cert and filled out a form for a new one.

That's exactly what they did for me when I upgraded from a Hornet to the .223. I was in and out within five minutes.

TJ911...

rrpc

Bond-007 wrote:

Can I use this to get the 100 round limit changed?

No, the relevant section is the 1925 act section 3 (4)

(4) Every firearm certificate shall be in the prescribed form and shall operate and be expressed to authorise the person to whom the same is granted—
( a ) to have in his possession, use, and carry the particular firearm described in the certificate, and
( b ) to purchase and use in such firearm during the currency of such certificate such quantity of ammunition for such firearm as shall be specified in the certificate, and
( c ) to have in his possession at any one time and carry so much only of the ammunition so purchased as shall be specified in the certificate.

You just write to your station requesting an increase giving reasons for the increase.

rrpc

Keelan wrote:

What a lot of confusion, this one of the many reasons i gave up shooting.

Keelan.

Sorry to hear that, but you really shouldn't allow them to win. Everybody who quits is one less to fight the war :mad:

johngalway

Well, I was just up at the substation now. He said that it was just a matter of a "substitution" and that the new certs were'nt quite ready yet. I don't think it'll be a problem, he said things may have changed unknown to him but I reckon it'll be grand.

I brought up my three certs, .223 .22lr and 12ga. He had a bit of a moment when he saw I had two rifles, even though he reccommended me for both and took my details etc. He said usually they get questions back on the granting of second rifles?

Now, I have decided to trade my .22lr Sako Quad barrel for a HMR barrel. I'm thinking after that I might leave it for a while now after that reaction. What do you guys reckon?

rrpc

It's mostly to do with section 4 of the 1925 act and whether the person applying for the FAC has a 'good reason' for requiring the firearm.

There may be no 'good reason' for a person to have two identical rifles for example.

THere also may be, so that's why it's up to you to provide said 'good reason'.

Thems the rules

johngalway

.223 REM is to destructive to rabbit, so that's my fox gun.

22lr is a good rabbit gun but ricohchets are dangerous and I no longer feel comfortable with that, bloody bounce off everything, HMR will be much safer in my opinion, accurate headshots will result in no meat damage. Will also use HMR for landed greycrows and magpies who have safe backstops, don't think I should mention that though? Thems my reasons

Then I have my shotgun for game and winged vermin that are in places a rifle just wouldn't be safe like the air or trees.

I don't want any more firearms, three will do me for ever. I do like having the right and proper tool for a certain job though

I should mention that I'm a sheep farmer. So foxes and greycrows are a real problem. They will kill and maim young lambs or any other sheep that may be ill or have gone on it's back. So keeping the vermin numbers down is much kinder to my animals as if anything does happen them less vermin around gives me more time to find and treat them accordingly. The game is a new thing for me, plan to get a foreshore licence and some duck this year, just an interest more than anything else. Never known a duck to savage a sheep lol.

Our man in Havana

Will also use HMR for landed greycrows and magpies who have safe backstops, don't think I should mention that though?

I think you are not supposed to kill winged vermin with a rifle?

johngalway

I thought it was ok for vermin but not game? Maybe I have it wrong.

johngalway

I don't yet see reference to rifles but as far as I can make out this is the list of wild birds that can be culled

Bullfinch

Carrion Crow

Greater Black-backed Gull

Herring Gull

Hooded (Grey) Crow

House Sparrow

Jackdaw

Jay

Lesser Black-backed Gull

Magpie

Pigeons, including Wood Pigeon, but not including carrier pigeons, racing horning pigeons or doves

Rook

Starling

I got this from the Irish statute book here.

Maybe I am misinterpreting it, I find it difficult to understand the way they put things, legalese...

johngalway

Restriction on use of certain firearms etc. 33.—(1) It shall be an offence for a person to kill or injure—

( a ) with a repeating or automatic shotgun (other than a repeating or automatic shotgun which is adapted or modified so as to render it incapable of carrying more than three shotgun cartridges), with an airgun, air-rifle, gas-rifle, pistol or revolver, or with any firearm fitted with a silencer device, any wild bird,

( b ) with a rifle, any protected wild bird.

(2) It shall be an offence for a person to kill or injure any wild bird or wild mammal with a spring gun, or with tracer shot or with a floating container containing an explosive substance.

(3) It shall be an offence for a person to kill or injure with a shotgun a protected wild animal other than a hare.

(4) Subject to the foregoing subsections of this section, the Minister may make regulations specifying the type and calibre of firearms and ammunition which may be used to hunt wild birds and wild mammals and providing that firearms and ammunition of any other type and calibre shall not be used to hunt such birds or mammals.

(5) In this section "rifle" includes both a gas-rifle and an air-rifle.

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The list in my previous post is of wild birds, which are not protected. From what I can grasp shooting with a shotgun which is NOT capable of carrying more than three rounds is acceptable, also shooting the above mentioned birds (again not protected) with a rifle is also acceptable.