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1st Flor Concrete Screed in TimberFrame House

  • 27-07-2007 2:09pm
    #1
    dj01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭


    Starting a TF self build in the near future and I want to put a 3" concrete screed on the first floor of the house. I've been in a TF house with this done and was very impressed, both from a underfoot solid feeling and sound insulation. Has anyone who has done this have any info on how it's done and what considerations need to be made before doing it?

    thanks.


Comments

  • #2
    Kayaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭Kayaker


    Yeap, it has been done, i've put 2in of insulation and 2in of screed (UFH) on the first floor, the timber frame company WF in athy were excellent. There are pros and cons to all designs
    pro
    1. excellent sound damping
    2. Forms a Fire Break from downstairs
    3. if using UFH it will retain heat

    cons
    1. cost (extra timber required doubled so TF cost nearly doubled)
    2. Electricans didn't like all the timber in the ceiling (2- 9x3 at 400 centers)
    3 The first floor thickness is now 14 inches

    would i do it again ...hmmmm.. for the cost ...No ....23,000 extra for me to install concrete first floor with UFH.. there are other companies out there doing UFH that go between floor boards and so less weight but you loose in heat retention. you may be going the precast first floor route still the ground floor will need to be strenghened, ask the TF company to price with and without concrete first floor.Also 80% of the time everyone is downstairs.

    Robbie ;)


  • #3
    dj01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭dj01


    Thanks Robbie, very helpful. I knew it would cost a little extra, but that is very expensive. How was the screed put in out of interest?


  • #4
    Kayaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭Kayaker


    The hard way .. I had done it self build way ( using a lot of SELF and the brother) you could get it pumped. but we used mixer and buckets (alot of buckets) 7 tonnes of sand in total about 2 days work ( price a pumper and motar truck or a mechincal lift if going the bucket way) the one thing i did find about self build is it will take longer due to you won't be able to fire more men at the job like a builder could and a builder would have the machinery, but you have to rent it.....

    Robbie;)

    that 20,000 was the price difference from TF price with and without concrete first floor


  • #5
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,823 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    DJ - I have it in my house too. More appropriate joisting and supporting walls is what's involved. I had my screed pumped in (not wet, self-levelling screed, just 'ordinary' sand/cement @ 70mm)

    At work we've built two houses with UFH upstairs, but without the screed, and that works too. Joisting is lighter, naturally.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #6
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,823 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    ok, dunno, but I can't edit above post............

    that 20k is astonishing for that work to accomodate your conc over. My TF house cost an extra..........3.5k for the joisting, and 3300 for the conc floor. Upstairs is approx 150 sq metres.

    Using double 9 x 3 timbers explains where the money went -that is just astonishing..............why didn't they use a much simpler, lighter, cheaper, and more elegant engineered joist ?? See mine, here; http://galwaytt.smugmug.com/photos/96768782-M.jpg

    Some of mine were 13m long................

    I don't know the price of 9x 3 off the top of my head, but I can tell you that 241 x 50mm TJI joists are Eur6.00/metre, approx. I guarantee that your sawn timber worked out considerably more. Also why your frame had to be upgraded - just to hold the weight of the joists...........I'd be asking the engineer how this radical cost had to be borne...........

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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  • #7
    Kayaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭Kayaker


    that 20k was doubling the 9x3 in the ceiling and doubling all TF walls on the ground floor, Maybe the engineer went OTT, but looking at the eng joist this maybe fine, but i was wondering, did you add any additional support to the walls to compensate for the extra load?..Are you allowed to drill through eng. joists for services? .

    Sure its done now can't change the past....ah if only....


    L8r
    Robbie


  • #8
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,823 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    My TF was designed to take the conc floor from day one, so the frame was built with that in mind.

    Engineered joists are pre-punched for services, so you don't even need to drill them......... :D

    There is also an open-web engineered truss, which is even easier for plumbers/elec etc see open web trusses here: http://www.ilevel.com/literature/com-1001.pdf

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #9
    sesswhat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭sesswhat


    Kayaker and galwaytt, what flooring did you use upstairs, and do you find you need to use the heating much compared to downstairs?


  • #10
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,823 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    I've put in laminate flooring in kids' bedrooms, am putting in semi-solid in Master and adjoining. All halls/corridors/bathrooms are tiled with a Porcelain tile.

    Heat etc is on, but I haven't moved in yet, so can't comment on costs, but I can tell you this: I turned off downstairs & upstairs completely as house is so warm, and basement is on to low, for a few hours a day.......it follows that upstairs will take very little to heat it, based on experience so far.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #11
    sesswhat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭sesswhat


    I was interested because I have a dormer with underfloor downstairs, all tiled, and rads upstairs. I considered underfloor upstairs but didn't want tiles in bedrooms and just wasn't convinced it would be worthwhile putting in underfloor with any other flooring.

    I was also aware of similar houses where the upstairs required very little heating as long as the heat was on downstairs. I went for carpet upstairs with heavy underlay, and packed between the 9 x 2 floor joists with rockwool.

    As it turned out, the radiators had very little to do, except top up the heating for maybe half an hour on cold mornings. We have only been in 6 months so the coming winter may be a stiffer test.

    Of course nothing beats a concrete floor for sound insulation and if cost was less of a consideration I would probably have gone down that route.


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  • #12
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,823 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    sesswhat wrote:
    Of course nothing beats a concrete floor for sound insulation and if cost was less of a consideration I would probably have gone down that route.

    Actually there is ample standard detail out there to build a joisted floor with wood over, and have good acoustic properties. Concrete is not sound-proof, only sound reducing...........

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #13
    Keeks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,199 ✭✭✭Keeks


    galwaytt wrote:
    Actually there is ample standard detail out there to build a joisted floor with wood over, and have good acoustic properties. Concrete is not sound-proof, only sound reducing...........

    Where would you find such detail?


  • #14
    yop
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 16,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭yop


    We have screed on the 1st floor in a TF.
    I informed the TF company of this when ordering and the strenghted accordingly, I went with a different approach by putting down 50*50 battens on the OSB roughyl 2ft apart then putting down the 25mm insulation, then the UFH and then filling in with screed to the top of the battens.
    WE have either tiles or timber so this setup suited.


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