house raided

sham69

Hi,
Dont know if I should be posting this as its quite serious.
Feel free to delete if inappropriate.
My friends house was raided last night and searched for illegal substances.
The officers had a warrant and said that they were tipped off that illegal substances were being sold from his address. They ripped the house apart and found nothing and apologised and went on their way. My friends Gf's brother is involved in Drugs in some way (not sure how serious) and his name was mentioned and my friend was told to avoid havin him visit the house.
My friends GF is 8 months pregnant and nearly died when the officers told them aobut her brother. My question is can my friend do anything about this?
All the neighbours were watching and the officers were hardly discreet, it started with 3 plain clothed officers (fair enough) and then followed 5 , yes 5 uniformed officers. I personally thought that was a bit OTT for 2 people in a 2 bed house with no previous. To cut a long story short my friend is thinking of going to a solicitor and see what they say, I told him I would post this here to see if anyone has any good advice.
As I said if this is out of line feel free to delete straight away.
Thanks for reading
Sham.

Rhonda9000

Not being flippant here but what exactly is the problem? I think the majority of unsuspecting folks would get a fright / upset if their house was searched by police with a warrant... and the majority of neighbours will bask in the unfolding street soap opera. As they say, that's life...

Thomas_S_Hunterson

They had a warrant so you don't really have much of a comeback

sham69

Thats what I thought initially , so is it as easy as someone making a phone call , giving an address and making an accusation to give them the right to search the house of 2 innocent people?
I told my mate to go to a solicitor so I'd better not go into to too much more detail.
Thanks all for the replies.
Sham.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Well the warrants have to be signed by a judge AFAIK, so the guards have to convince the judge that they are sufficiently suspicious for a warrant to be issued.

seamus

sham69 wrote:

Thats what I thought initially , so is it as easy as someone making a phone call , giving an address and making an accusation to give them the right to search the house of 2 innocent people?

The Gardai have to obtain a warrant in order to search the house. This involves going to a judge and explaining the reasoning behind the request. It doesn't take a whole lot - "I've seen X going to his sister's house quite often" would be a likely explanation.

No-one here can really say much about it tbh. Each case is different, and we can't give any legal advice on it.

sham69

Thanks again all for the advice.
I will leave it at that..
sham.....

Our man in Havana

Warrants can be signed by peace commisioners which are local people with no legal qualifications. The Gardai just show up and ask them to sign the warrant.

Is there any comeback if the warrant was obtained on the basis of duff info?

biko

Members of the Garda Siochana sometimes get confidential information from informants. Frequently neither the informant nor the Garda wish the source of the information to emerge publicly.

Its emergence can be prevented under the common law “informer privilege”.

Generally the information will lead to an application for a search warrant. The application is generally made to a District Court judge or, sometimes, a Peace Commissioner.

The Garda applicant will usually have to prove on oath that s/he has reasonable grounds for believing [a set of facts] indicating the need for a search of a premises. The judge or Commissioner might ask questions and would, in the event of receiving unsatisfactory replies, be in a position to decline to issue the warrant.

Generally, therefore, there is some safeguard against abuse by the Garda Siochana.

If the warrant is not validly issued the lawfulness of the search and the admissibliity of any evidence obtained will be compromised.
*

sham69

thanks guys.
Is there any way to find out where the info came from seeing as they found nothing and gave an apology for the inconvenience. The worst thing seems to be my mate worrying where the info came from and is trying to think of an enemies he might have made and is also worried about the security of his house aswell which I can understand.

Our man in Havana

Did you ask to see the warrant?

johnnyskeleton

The confidential information could have come from anywhere or anyone. If they had found drugs on the premises and it went to court, the gardai would still not be obliged to explain who the confidential information came from. They may have to explain what further steps they took to ensure the accuracy of the information that they received. I think that it would not be enough if someone rang the garda confidential line and told them that X person had drugs in their house. The gardai would, in my view, need more before they could apply for a warrant.

In difference to some of the posters below, the fact that the gardai had a warrant does not absolve them from liability. The gardai can be sued where they have acted contrary to the constitution, abused their powers or where they have been negligent (Walsh v. Ireland, Supreme Court, 30 Nov, 1994; Hanahoe v. Hussey[1998] 3 IR 69; Shortt v. Garda Commissioners, Supreme Court, 21 March, 2007). However, it would be a fairly onerous task to prove one of these, and the costs of an unsuccessful action would be quite large. It might be something that the Garda Ombudsman, or a solicitor, might advise you on.

PeakOutput

you know that his g/fs brother is involved with drugs...they know it and unfortunately there will be a certain amount of guilty by association

i do think that the gardai need the ability to be able to do this and i dont see why they should be entitled to any sort of compensation. if they do not let the brother into their house as advised presumably it wont happen again

Our man in Havana

I think that it would not be enough if someone rang the garda confidential line and told them that X person had drugs in their house. The gardai would, in my view, need more before they could apply for a warrant.

I know for a fact that warrants have been granted on that sort of information. Some peace commisioners would be simply too afraid (remember these are not legally qualified people) to deny a gardas request. A judge would be less likely to grant a warrant on the word on an anonymous informant.

Are there any types of search warrants that can only be granted by a judge?

johnnyskeleton

PeakOutput wrote:

you know that his g/fs brother is involved with drugs...they know it and unfortunately there will be a certain amount of guilty by association

i do think that the gardai need the ability to be able to do this and i dont see why they should be entitled to any sort of compensation. if they do not let the brother into their house as advised presumably it wont happen again

Guilt by association, violation of the dwelling based on shoddy information, garda immunity, shunning relatives to avoid the gardai entering your house? These are not the sort of principles which the law seeks to protect, and they are disproportionate to any perceived benefit the gardai might gain. The gardai must exercise care when carrying out their functions and if they are remiss in any way, they should be liable for that. I don't see the need to do this - I fail to see why the gardai cannot act reasonably and within the law at all times.

Bond-007 wrote:

I know for a fact that warrants have been granted on that sort of information. Some peace commisioners would be simply too afraid (remember these are not legally qualified people) to deny a gardas request. A judge would be less likely to grant a warrant on the word on an anonymous informant.

Are there any types of search warrants that can only be granted by a judge?

Warrants are often issued because a garda has received confidential information from "a reliable source", e.g. a person that they know has some involvement with the drugs trade. They will remain anonymous for the purposes of the warrant, but the garda might have known them previously. Where a garda receives a tip off from some unknown source about an unknown residence, I believe it would be prudent to make further investigations before applying for a warrant. If a peace commissioner does not inquire into the basis for the garda's suspicion and satisfy himself that the suspicion is reasonable, that warrant is invalid.

I understand that warrants under the Criminal Justice (Misc. Provisions) Act, 1997 can only be issued by a judge.

PeakOutput

johnnyskeleton wrote:

I fail to see why the gardai cannot act reasonably and within the law at all times.

you dont see the need for gardai to be able to search a house they suspect of having drugs in it??? (i am assuming that what they suspected) and i also dont see how they acted outside the law in this case but i have not studied law so maybe they did.

also im not talking about the letter of the law here though im talking about practical common sense if you associate with something/someone that breaks the law then you have to be prepared to come under scrutiny yourself at some stage....im not saying this is right or wrong im just saying its a fact.


the best outcome of this experience is not to get compo from the governement its the wake up call to sort out the brother.

im not speaking from a holier than tho postion either iv no particular problem with people who do drugs at a recreational level but the fact the gardai are that aware of him suggests thats not the case to me anyway

johnnyskeleton

PeakOutput wrote:

you dont see the need for gardai to be able to search a house they suspect of having drugs in it??? (i am assuming that what they suspected) and i also dont see how they acted outside the law in this case but i have not studied law so maybe they did.

I have no problem with gardai searching a house that they reasonably, but mistakenly, suspect contains drugs, but I take issue with the gardai searching a house which they casually or negligently suspect contains drugs. The difference is the level of care and attention the gardai put into it. If the garda does not have reasonable grounds for suspicion, or if the issuer of the warrant has not taken steps to satisfy him/herself of those reasonable grounds, then no lawful warrant is issued.

PeakOutput wrote:

also im not talking about the letter of the law here though im talking about practical common sense if you associate with something/someone that breaks the law then you have to be prepared to come under scrutiny yourself at some stage....im not saying this is right or wrong im just saying its a fact.

Perparing yourself to come under scrutiny is fine, but having your constitutional rights unduly interfered with is not fine. The fact that the Irish courts treat all such interferences seriously (even if it is just opening someone else's junkmail) is what separates us from a police state.

PeakOutput wrote:

the best outcome of this experience is not to get compo from the governement its the wake up call to sort out the brother.

im not speaking from a holier than tho postion either iv no particular problem with people who do drugs at a recreational level but the fact the gardai are that aware of him suggests thats not the case to me anyway

Have you ever received your neighbour's post by mistake, or has anyone ever rang you, believing it to be another Peak Output? That is how easy it is to for the gardai to make mistakes as to identity. Suppose his brother's name was Joe Soap from Anytown and there are twenty Joe Soaps in Anytown. In one of the cases I mentioned earlier, Walsh v. Ireland, there was just such a mix up. So I would be reluctant to assume that someone was involved in the drugs trade based on an obscure suspicion.

PeakOutput

johnnyskeleton wrote:

So I would be reluctant to assume that someone was involved in the drugs trade based on an obscure suspicion.

theres no point in me arguing about the laws of it its just my personal opinion but the op said they know what the brother is doing themselves or they know roughly what he is doing so in this case there was no mix up and that is why i said they should see if they can do anything to help the brother

sham69

thanks again guys I didnt realise this would spark that much interest.
I am not sure how involved the brother is, hopefully its a wake up call and he choese to change his ways.
I personall thought it was unfortunate that it happened, I know my friend and his G/f extremely well and know they would not get involved in anything dodgy. The only association was the Gf's brother. You can't be answerable for your relatives actions and I found it strange that his house or his mothers house was not searched , just his sisters was?. The guards in fairness to them did not wreck the house, my mate said they were quite careful but 2 of them were quite harsh considering his g/f is 8 months pregnant (2 female officers were the harsh ones). He said it was one of the worst experiences of his life and has made it clear that the brother is not welcome anymore.
Thanks again for all the advice and remarks.