here we go

bytesize

Just wondering, since this is the Korean thread i am asking about Koreans so i reckon it should go here.

ok over the past while a number of these, what should i call them... hmmm, ok claims

Over the past while, I have read of and been told of Koreans trying to lay claim to many historical and not so historical things. These range from language to festivities. Many of these claims seem to be made against Chinese things. For example the Chinese language, for some reason Koreans seem to be laying claim to the character set which makes up the Chinese language.

Another is the moon cake festival. This has long been a Chinese traditional festival which originated in china by Chinese and was later brought to other countries such as Korea. Now Koreans have also laid claim to this. is there something i am unaware of that has caused or pushed Koreans to claim these things or are Koreans so insecure about their own historical facts and such that they need to lay claim to other countries?

N.B I am in no way a hater of Korea/Korean's/Korean history/Korean beliefs

thank you

Hobbes

Have you actually checked on any of this? Or just taken what was mentioned to you as truth?

Language: Koreans have a seperate language to Chinese (Hangul). The Korean alphabet was alleged to have been created by a Korean king. It is not like Chinese at all. So in that instance they would be correct.

Hanja on the other hand is a combination of Korean/Chinese/Japanese words using the Chinese alphabet.

I don't know of any Korean who claims they invented that.

As for the moon cake festival. I think you are referring to Chuseok. I have been in Singapore during moon cake festival and I've also been to Chuseok in and out of Korea. They are not even remotely the same.

The only thing they have in common is they are harvest festivals, which England has btw.

Chuseok is more like thanksgiving, while moon festival would be more for kids.

I am not sure where you are claiming the Koreans are laying claim to the mooncake festival. Do you have a citation?

bytesize

Before I continue I should state that I have knowledge on both Korean and Chinese in different area's, just so you don't feel you need to explain things such as different language structures or related material.

Also some of the following text will be quotes from people on forums and i have given some links to evidence of these claims.

Ok on to the main topic. It is not a simple case of hearsay or hearing people chat about this topic, but rather reading lengthy debates and researching these accusations myself. I should also note that these claims have been going on for many years and that as time goes by, more claims are being made. Firstly about the language, it is a serious debate going on at the moment withing forums and other areas of debate. These claims are well known throughout much of the Chinese population around the world but I am not sure about the Korean population. I haven't asked my Korean friends about this as I fear an argument could erupt between them and my Chinese friends. Anyway, many Korean nationals seem to be claiming that the Chinese Character set and the language itself was invented by Koreans and not just a simple case of it being about Hanja but in fact the claim that the language itself was created by Koreans.

Another claim is that of the Dragon Boat festival. Recently Koreans have said it is their own tradition and have applied it in United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization to mark it down as a Korean tradition and not a Chinese one.


http://pachome2.pacific.net.sg/~willows5/singlish_D.htm

Also South Korea is planning to change the name of Chinese Traditional Medicine into Korean Traditional Medicine and apply it in UNESCO as their own tradition. South Korean also claims that the ancient Chinese medical scientist Li Shi Zhen is from Korea!

Kong Zi is the beginner of Chinese ancient and modern idea system, and he is a symbol of Chinese old culture. But now South Korea intends to steal him as the ancestor of Korea.

It is widely known that printing is one of the most important ancient inventions of China. It has pushed greatly the human civilization forward. The inventor is the famous Chinese ancient scholar Cai Lun. But what is unbelievable is that South Korea has built a museum of printing's invention and insists that printing was developed in Korea. Even they offer free visit to foreign guests.

Here is a link to some of the story behind why these Koreans claim such things:

http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/2410.html

here are more links which note Koreans claims:

http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=420


http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=288

Unfortunately I could go on but I fell this is enough for now. I must also add I have a big interest in Korean culture and Korea itself, I have studied the language a bit and have been there too, love the culture, food, entertainment. But I feel this is a bit childish to try claim another countries culture and heritage as their own because they seem to be dissatisfied with their own. I can only hope that most Koreans do not think like this.

Lastly I must say you are wrong in your assumption that moon cake festival is only for kids in comparison to Chuseok, it is in fact a big family orientated festival. I know this first hand and hope you get to experience it like that sometime as I would say you would like it if you like Chuseok.

frany

I think you better talk about that subject on Korean Internet Board, not here. If they stole your language, then they would understand your Chinese. This is not the board for the people who hate Koreans. This board is for Koreans and other races who love Korea and Korean culture.

Hobbes

Let me start by saying that I am taking your posts as a troll. You will be banned if you continue on the same vein. So let me make something clear, continue to post without proper research will get you banned.

nyway, many Korean nationals seem to be claiming that the Chinese Character set and the language itself was invented by Koreans and not just a simple case of it being about Hanja but in fact the claim that the language itself was created by Koreans.

I can find no reference at all to what you have claimed. In fact all I can find is a post on another message board which claims this but doesn't cite any Korean source claiming as such.

Asking a couple of Korean friends+relations their first response was "Huh? No that is wrong." Hanja is Chinese character set. Hangul is Korean character set. They are both very different.

Another claim is that of the Dragon Boat festival.

I can find no reference of such a claim either. Asking my Korean friends again all said "We have never heard of such a festival".

Also South Korea is planning to change the name of Chinese Traditional Medicine into Korean Traditional Medicine

Again you have not backed this up. I can tell you that there is Traditional Korean medicine as well as Traditional Chinese medicine (at least that I saw in Korea). They are somewhat different.

South Korean also claims that the ancient Chinese medical scientist Li Shi Zhen is from Korea!

Again, I see no such claim.

It is widely known that printing is one of the most important ancient inventions of China. It has pushed greatly the human civilization forward. The inventor is the famous Chinese ancient scholar Cai Lun. But what is unbelievable is that South Korea has built a museum of printing's invention and insists that printing was developed in Korea. Even they offer free visit to foreign guests.

Actually the first Metal printing press was invented in Korea.

China did invent the first movable type printing press. Despite what you believe Cai Lun did not invent the printing press. He invented paper.

Here is a link to some of the story behind why these Koreans claim such things:

You need to find better sources. Someones blog is not a basis of factual research and the first link posted was about Japan.

I have studied the language a bit

If you had you would of known what you posted earlier is factually incorrect.

But I feel this is a bit childish to try claim another countries culture and heritage as their own

No trying to troll is being childish.

Lastly I must say you are wrong in your assumption that moon cake festival is only for kids in comparison to Chuseok, it is in fact a big family orientated festival.

As I said I was in Singapore for the moon cake festival and it appeared be mostly for kids running around with their lanterns. If you have been to a Thanksgiving in the US you would see that Chuseok would resemble that more.

Chuseok is not even remotely the same, and again you have yet to back up that fact either.

Another look on the net nearly all your claims seem to match this post.
http://www.chinalanguage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=17737&sid=7ae4255c8dc760e922eea07d24fbcfa0

Again this has no citations so I would not base it on fact.

Now if your going to respond I suggest you do so with actual facts and you bother to read what your posting. The fact that you thought that the inventor of paper invented the printing press means you need to do a bit more reading.

And I am serious about banning intentional trolling.

bytesize

Firstly to frany, i am not Chinese and i have a big interest in korea and korean.

secondly, hobbes i am not trolling, i was asking in this forum to get opinions from many other Korean natives to get their view on this situation.

and if you had bothered to read through all the links i gave you and the whole of the text, you would see that i said some of what i posted was quoted from other people. there were facts in there but you obviously have a biased view since you are married to a Korean. i honestly understand that so i will, in no manner of trolling at all since i am looking for information and feedback not an argument or trying to stir up anything, quote factual statements that should inform you better on what i am talking about.

ok to start, i never said Cai Lun invented the printing press. I linked to a wiki page that states

who is conventionally regarded as the inventor of paper and the papermaking process, in forms recognizable in modern times as paper

i do apologize for one mistake which i quoted from another page , it had said

It is widely known that printing is one of the most important ancient inventions of China. It has pushed greatly the human civilization forward. The inventor is the famous Chinese ancient scholar Cai Lun.

In relation to the dragon boat festival, i gave you a link which states:

wiki wrote:

Dragon Boat Festival is a traditional Chinese festival held on the fifth day of the fifth month of the Chinese calendar. It is also known as the Double Fifth. It has since been celebrated in other parts of East Asia as well. In the West, it is commonly known as Dragon Boat Festival.

I then gave you a link with script stating about this claim, quote from this link http://pachome2.pacific.net.sg/~willows5/singlish_D.htm:

China has shortlisted the Dragon Boat Festival, acupuncture and Shaolin gongfu as among several hundred cultural traditions worth preserving, as the country marks its first Cultural Heritage Day today. .. Officials and experts have suggested raising the status of traditional Chinese festivals like the Dragon Boat and Mid-Autumn, putting them on a par with the Spring Festival and Chinese New Year. .. Many in China were stung by South Korea’s successful application to Unesco at the end of last year to have its own version of the Dragon Boat Festival recognised as a world cultural heritage. China’s Dragon Boat Festival, which originated nearly 2,500 years ago, began as a commemoration of the sacrificial act of the patriotic poet Qu Yuan (340–278 BC) who drowned himself when the capital of his state fell to invaders.

and as requested here are factual pieces of information:

http://chineseculture.about.com/b/a/212613.htm

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-05/21/content_332694.htm


i want to state once again that i am not trolling but simply looking for light to be shed on the situation.

thanks

frany

am a S.Korean and I know Chinese letters are from China.
And also we don't have that festivals...what?? Dragon boat festival?? Is it right?

And in addition, we have our own separate letters and they're invented by King Sejong of Chosun Dynasty.

Korea, China and Japan have had very long diplomatic relations like England with other European countries. So we(Koreans,Chinese and Japaneses) have complicated emotions. So you can't understand this feelings if you're not a Chinese.

And you misunderstand about the relations between Korea and China.

I will give you a link. Visit Korean VANK site and read what they are talking about China. They are now trying to steal Korean old country,Goguryo!!
And have a look wiki encyclopedia what it's saying about Korea.
At least, Koreans don't tell a lie with our history.

This site will give you many correct true informations for understanding Oriental world.



http://www.prkorea.com/english/e_intro/e_introto1_2.htm


You said you have a big interest in Korea. Then you should know Korean good cultural things as well. But I really hope that you won't have a BIG interest in bad points only of Korea. There are some ignorant people who love to talk very badly about other races. I really wish you won't belong to them.

bytesize

dear frany,

thank you for taking the time to understand that i am trying to understand this situation and not simply trying to cause an argument.

firstly dragon boat festival is the western name for Double fifth. this is a Chinese historical holiday which was passed on to Korea and also. Korean has its own festives which are the same as chinas but they also incorporate a few others which china does not. the Korean name for this festival is Dano 단오.

here is a wiki link for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dano_%28Korean%29


in relation to the Korean language, i know the history of King Sejong and how he invented the Korean character system for Koreans because Koreans couldn't use the Chinese language system to properly communicate as it didn't fit the Norean pronunciation and meaning so it was hard for people who were not able to learn hanja.

in relation to Goguryo i know of the claims and am currently researching into this myself.

anyway thanks for replying and hopefully we can shed some light on everything

Hobbes

bytesize wrote:

and if you had bothered to read through all the links i gave you and the whole of the text, you would see that i said some of what i posted was quoted from other people. there were facts in there

Quotations from other people is not a basis for facts.

but you obviously have a biased view since you are married to a Korean.

That has absolutely nothing to do with and if you continue to bring up such counter arguments like this you will be banned.

I honestly understand that so i will, in no manner of trolling at all since i am looking for information

Your first post goes on about how Koreans are claiming to have made the Chinese character set. I point out this is false and you say you already know what I said but then still make the assertion without actually backing it up.

The explantions regardless if you want them or not is for people who might actually believe what you are saying.

ok to start, i never said Cai Lun invented the printing press. I linked to a wiki page that states

Actually you did. Go back and read your own post. Also if you actually bothered to even read Wikipedia you would find you would be wrong also.

It looks more like you cut and pasted from here:
http://www.chinalanguage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=17737&sid=7ae4255c8dc760e922eea07d24fbcfa0

I suggest you find better sources to review.

i do apologize for one mistake which i quoted from another page , it had said

Numerous mistakkees.

In relation to the dragon boat festival

DANO IS NOT EVEN REMOTELY THE SAME AS THE DRAGON BOAT FESTIVAL!

Dragon Boat festival: People race dragon boats to remember a famous poet.

Dano: Women washed thier hair with special shampoo, played a swing game, while men played wrestling and also mask dances.

Seriously are you even researching what you are claiming? The only thing they have remotely in common is they fall within the same time of the year.

I then gave you a link with script stating about this claim, quote from this link http://pachome2.pacific.net.sg/~willows5/singlish_D.htm:

Sorry but that doesn't claim that Koreans are taking the festival. In fact it doesn't even mention Koreans have the same festival. It does however just point to the same China Daily story. Just because someone puts it on their webpage doesn't make it true.

http://chineseculture.about.com/b/a/212613.htm

I will tell you again. Research properly. If you had you would of noticed that the story that page you links to has been retracted and was just a copy of the second link you posted. The original story came from "China Daily" (I had already read it), but I could find no such evidence that it was in anyway factually correct.

In fact you haven't proved it either.

i want to state once again that i am not trolling but simply looking for light to be shed on the situation.

Light has been shed. You are wrong.

Hobbes

Further checking on the China daily story regarding the dragonboats.

UNESCO asked asian countries for a list of holidays and Korea put forward Dano along with others.

China on the other hand would not put forward the dragon boat day as a national holiday as it is not on the ministry of cultures heritige preparatory list. In fact they will not even add this year even though they said they will take applications for it to be added.

Some chinese took this to mean that because Korea had a holiday on the same day that they would be denied entry onto the UNESCO list. This is false.

I hope that clears up your misunderstanding. I even found a news report for you. Second last paragraph spells out Chinas official stance.
http://www.china.org.cn/english/MATERIAL/196350.htm

Hobbes

As for Koreans inventing Chinese language. I also found this.
http://www.chinalanguage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=779&start=0&sid=95bc9d95bf180649df63fbfc87201493

Oddly enough by the same person claiming Koreans stealing Chinas ideas. Cites no real sources but as mentioned is clearly debunked in the thread by others.

bytesize

are you even reading what i am writing or are you taking bits and pieces and making your mind up on your failed attempt to understand things??

i didn't only give you quotations from other people as fact, i gave factual links. the quotations where peoples research into this accusation

Your first post goes on about how Koreans are claiming to have made the Chinese character set. I point out this is false and you say you already know what I said but then still make the assertion without actually backing it up.

i never said i already know what you said and how did you state that it was a false claim, i could give you links to factual news statements but you wouldn't be able to read them. they are in Chinese.

on what basis did you prove they were false? because you couldn't find anything to disprove it? not my fault you cant research properly.

Actually you did. Go back and read your own post. Also if you actually bothered to even read Wikipedia you would find you would be wrong also.

It looks more like you cut and pasted from here:
http://www.chinalanguage.com/forums/...eea07d24fbcfa0

I suggest you find better sources to review.

i do apologize for one mistake which i quoted from another page , it had said

see you are not reading what i am saying. you chopped a statement in 2 and replied as if it was 2 statements. i said in a previous post:

my second post wrote:

Also some of the following text will be quotes from people on forums and i have given some links to evidence of these claims.

read what i am saying before you reply without knowing what you are saying.

in relation to the chinese character set... here is a link to a page. it contains links to korean pages which your wife will translate to you

http://koreasparkling.wordpress.com/2007/05/16/who-invented-chinese-characters/

i am not going to reply to you anymore as you dont seem to understand what i am saying.

in relation to dragon boat festival, that is the western name for the festival, it is more s known as Duanwu Festival.

dano is one of the festivities that koreans get involved in during this day.

Hobbes

bytesize wrote:

on what basis did you prove they were false? because you couldn't find anything to disprove it? not my fault you cant research properly.

Normally if you make an assertion it is up to you to prove it true. That is how it works. Until that point it is false.

You have not proven anything. All you have done is latched onto internet urban legends.

As I pointed out I already found the story in relation to the UNESCO request and why Chinese seemed to think that Koreans were taking the Dragon boat holiday (when in fact they aren't).

in relation to the chinese character set... here is a link to a page. it contains links to korean pages which your wife will translate to you

http://koreasparkling.wordpress.com/2007/05/16/who-invented-chinese-characters/

Actually that page debunks it and details what I already posted in relation to the source of that urban legend. Like I said actually read what your claiming. It is even in English pointing this out.

The whole story is said to have originated from one person who may be in the University of Maryland. Doesn't sound very Korean.

As for the korean page I trust you have actually read it? It refers to Koguryo. Not the Chinese alphabet.

in relation to dragon boat festival, that is the western name for the festival, it is more s known as Duanwu Festival.

dano is one of the festivities that koreans get involved in during this day.

Just because two separate countries have two different holidays with different customs on the same day does not mean that one of those countries is stealing the holiday.

Hobbes

아무튼, 한글은 읽을수 있습니다. 님도 한글 읽을수 있나요? 한글을 쓰고 말하는거에 대해선 그리 잘하진 못하지만 말이죠.

frany

bytesize wrote:

dear frany,

thank you for taking the time to understand that i am trying to understand this situation and not simply trying to cause an argument.


I think it's wasting time to talk to you with this sensitive subjects. SORRY FOR MY TERRIBLE ENGLISH MISTER.If you're NOT A CHINESE, THEN IT'S NOT YOUR BUSINESS,RIGHT? LEAVE CHINESE AND KOREAN SOLVE THIS OUT. IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A DISCUSSION WITH THIS SUBJECT, THEN DO IT ON CHINESE LANGUAGE FORUM. DO YOU KNOW WHY I DON'T POST ANY HISTORICAL THINGS ABOUT KOREA HERE? I REALLY DON'T WANT TO INSULT OTHER RACES LIKE YOU DO. YOU SAID YOU'RE A PERSON WHO HATES KOREAN AND KOREAN CULTURE. SO YOU BETTER TALK TO CHINESE ON CHINESE FORUM.I DON'T CARE ANY MORE WHAT YOU'RE TALKING RUBBISH THINGS.

Hobbes

appears to have run its course.