deep hand in a 3bet pot

robinlacey

3/6 3 handed,effective stacks 1300.

villain in the hand is the only good player at the table,he's been 3betting,floating and generally wrecking my head. he came out the best of our first few encounters (eg i folded to his 4bet,he won two showdowns in medium sized pots,etc) but in the last while i've won a few pots off him by calling him down lightish or making him fold preflop. i've been trying to avoid him as much as possible though,he seems pretty good,but he's on four of my tables so i have to play some pots with him.

the table only just became 3 handed.

anyway,i raise on the button to 21 with AKs,he makes it 75,i call.

flop QT5 with two of my suit,he bets 145,i call

turn is an offsuit 2,we both check

river is an 8,no flush for me,he bets 340,i fold.


i can't really think of much i can change about how i played it,but it seems kind of lame nonetheless. anyone got any ideas?

mrflash

if you think he is getting to you, leave all the tables you and he are on, get him another night, its not worth playing with a guy whos got inside your head.
ask yourself, would you normally and have you played this hand any differently against other players with his stats?
if you are playing differently than normal, then it might be time for a break.

cardshark202

make it 500 on the flop and call a shove?

EDIT: I think you played it fine though.

valor

I kind of like a min raise on the flop here actually, I think its a great way to confuse your opponent into making a mistake [by 3 betting with air/light]. If he calls, I' would take a free card

If I wasnt min raising, I would definitely be making some type of a raise on the flop

Also, preflop, vs someone this active I think you make a case for a 4 bet despite stacks being really awkward. I'd like to know more about his calling range for a 4 bet though so calling is fine I guess.

fuzzbox

Your line is fine here I think.
You can also raise the flop, but it QT kinda hits his range pretty hard.

Jaden

Flush Draw - 9 Outs.
Straight Draw 3 more outs.
Either an A or a K might be an out (say 2 out of the 6 left).

15 Outs total on the flop. You're a favourite. Raise the flop, and call the shove.

kebabfest

You said yourself he has been 3 betting and floating a lot. For this reason he could be doesnt always have the nuts.
Although I dont like 4 betting with AK if you do it in this situation he will probably flat call.
Just realised you had position on him and a good enough reason for not 4 betting
If you re-raise pre he'll probably call and then if you reraise on the flop you'll put him to the test.
The way it paned out you had a very passive line. He could have been betting out both times with air. (It would have been easy enough to put you on the flush draw in this hand)
At no stage in this hand do you put him under any pressure.
Not pre-flop (4 bet?)
Or on the flop reraise.
My advice could be way off , but in my experience you gotta put tricky customers to the test.

TheRock

Just wondering is there any reason you didn't bet when he checked turn
The flop bet looks like a standard C-Bet. Your call is scary to him.
The flop check from him looks weak.
Would a bet from you not take the pot down here a lot of the time?

RoundTower

I don't see anything wrong with playing it this way.

CaptainNemo

I would have played the flop more aggressively, you have a very strong hand and he may have missed or have a hand like 99 or JJ. I'd raise it up bigtime and if he comes over the top you call. As played you basically asked him to take it away from you and he did.

Ste05

I don't mind how you played this hand at all, although especially 3 handed I would probably raise the flop up to 450-500 and grumble to myself as I call a shove.

RoundTower

I think raising the flop is a bit awkward because he is unlikely to make a big mistake 3 betting, there aren't many flush draws since you have the A the K and one other big one, and if he has a pair he is not making much/any of a mistake getting it all in. Probably you should bet turn sometimes but taking the free card seems standard.

robinlacey

the reason i didnt raise the flop is because that deep against a good player he's not stacking off with anything i beat,it might have worked as a bluff to fold out KK and AQ but thats about it,and even that probably wouldn't have worked.

the range that puts more money in after i raise the flop is QQ,QT,TT,AA,KK and 55,and that's literally it.

Ste05

Well the reason I would have raised the flop are for a couple of reasons, but because you were on 4 tables with the guy this might not be correct based on your read of him and how he would view you, but how and ever.

Firstly the hand is 3 handed, so his 3-betting range from a button opener should be huge, also your calling range this deep would also be very large.

He then fires a standard cont. bet meaning nothing really, the flop is a nice one for both of you. A raise to 500 say, would leave you with ~800 left behind and again isn't all that strong. I would have thought he was capable of pushing with a very large range there, because the board is so draw heavy, so I would think he could eaily push with a weaker draw or a semi-strong hand protecting from draws that you could easily have, thinking he has loads of FE, (which generally he will have 3-handed).

I would have thought hands like KQ, QJ, KJ, J9, a weaker flush draw as well as sets etc. could easily push. Also it might just fold out hands like AQ, KQ, KK, JJ, (having no option but to push or fold really, and he might not be willing to risk it) and should nearly always fold out hands like 99, 88, 77.

There's also metagame considerations to take into account, presumably you 2 will be banging heads for a while if you both stay on the 3 handed table, and it might make him more wary of 3-betting you and if he does and you call again he may be more wary of leading the flop if you call. You might get more button steals in against him, from there on, etc. etc. but in general with all that beside the point I would have thought the range of hands that would push over the top I can't see crushing us and he will fold alot of hands that beat us, (KQ, QJ, JJ, 99, 88, 10x maybe even AQ and KK).

I know some of that is contradictory, like I say he could push KQ and could also fold it and the likes but I just think with this board alot of things could happen and I would have thought a flop raise would be profitable, I still don't mind the flop call but I just think a raise would have a higher expectation, if slightly higher variance. If we call and the flush completes on the turn/river, I don't think we are winning a huge pot.

kebabfest

thats a fair point. I see your reasoning now. You basically thought he had a fairly big hand ? So therefore betting the turn was a no no as he simply would have re-raised you puting you in a very difficult spot. So the check on the turn gives you a free card.
Once he bets on the river since you have nowt you fold.
On 1st inspection your line looks way too passive, but in fact it is common sense.
However I still reckon that 4 betting pre isnt a bad option against a player like this. I suppose your counter line would be he is only going to play back with big pairs.
So I cant fault your play , but even with the counter arguments you gotta find a way of putting this type of opponent to the test.

robinlacey

so i should just value bluff the flop!

only joking,very good post and you might well be right.its possible that these are the sort of situations i should be more aware of in these sort of deep,three bet pots...

robinlacey

(cross post,that a response to ste's post)

Macspower

I think you played it fine.... I would probably have 4 bet preflop but them I'm a very ABC player and wouldn't have your ability post flop...

I think your right not to bet the checked turn... "stack a donk" springs to mind? you bet it and he calls your done.... you bet and he raises you don't get a free river....

River fold?? what else can you do?

Fine I think....

fuzzbox

robinlacey wrote:

the reason i didnt raise the flop is because that deep against a good player he's not stacking off with anything i beat,it might have worked as a bluff to fold out KK and AQ but thats about it,and even that probably wouldn't have worked.

the range that puts more money in after i raise the flop is QQ,QT,TT,AA,KK and 55,and that's literally it.

Yeah, but he folds a whole load of hands that you would like him to fold, and he might felt a worse draw.

AmarilloFats

nothing insightful to say -- Just questions - questions are good

why no 4 bet pre flop..? 4 handed button raise blind 3 bet from lag!!


How much does AK reduce in value as stacks get bigger?? would you prefer to have any pocket pair in this spot preflop??Suited connectors?


Flop comes - 9 6 2 with 2 of your suit and villain still leads into you for 145. what's your move?

- 447 no draw same action - what % do you raise / float

ianmc38

Fine. I may raise and get allin on the flop though.

BobSloane

I would nearly always raise that flop and be happy to call a push. Your hand is very strong on the flop and worthless on the river. Isn't that one of the keys to 6-max play your 12+outs hands very strong and the times they fold+the times they call and you make your draw = profit?

I suppose playing it passivly saves you money when you miss but its would be hard to get paid on the river here i think as played.
Or is it because its 200+bb deep and not just 100 or so