Sick of The Friend Zone

LegacyUser

Hi all,

long story short, i'm absolutely sick to the teeth of being rejected by girls. I always end up "the good friend". I used to think it was because I was "too nice", which I didn't really mind either, but at times it gets really really too hard to be the shoulder to cry on for everyone when you want to be listened to and appreciated yourself.

Anyone else have this experience much?

biko

It boils down to fear of rejection. You'd rather be nice friends than letting them go, hoping they'll come around - will probably not happen. Next time make sure that they don't get the chance to move you into the friend zone.
Make it obvious that you are interested.

Nice guys never gets to kiss beautiful girls.

Call Me Jimmy

biko wrote:

It boils down to fear of rejection. You'd rather be nice friends than letting them go, hoping they'll come around - will probably not happen. Next time make sure that they don't get the chance to move you into the friend zone.
Make it obvious that you are interested.

Nice guys never gets to kiss beautiful girls.

Agree almost 100%, girls want a man, not a pussy, they already have one of those. The reason you're in the friends zone is because, as biko said, you aren't making it clear you want to ride em, or you are hanging around them after rejection.

Do you get outright rejected after making it clear you want some sexy time?
Or do you chat to a girl all night without her knowing you want sexy time?

BEAT

its happens to girls too... I cant tell you how many times I have ended up being just "one of the guys"
it all boils down to finding the right one, there is no certain way to be.... you just have to be yourself and eventually you will come across the right one, in the meantime just have fun and dont expect it or look for it.. life is too short..
if it happens it happens if it doesnt move on,
its importanat to remember that whatever you are doing you are having fun,
you'd be surprised how many people are attracted to someone who is happy with themselves and really knows how to have a good time

confusedbaby

looks like we are in the same kinda situation. i hate the co-called friends tooo

LegacyUser

Call Me Jimmy wrote:

Or do you chat to a girl all night without her knowing you want sexy time?

Have a habit of that actually. I feel like Jesus at times.

Wibbs

Call Me Jimmy wrote:

Agree almost 100%, girls want a man, not a pussy, they already have one of those. The reason you're in the friends zone is because, as biko said, you aren't making it clear you want to ride em, or you are hanging around them after rejection.

Not the most poetic way to put it, but it has a lot of truth in it, especially from the male perspective. You are being "too nice". You have to define "nice" as well. If you don't treat people in general with respect you're not going to get far either(though sadly often further than being "nice"). When you describe yourself as nice you are probably coming across as a non sexual person for a start. You're the one putting yourself in the friend zone, not her. If you act as a friend how else is she going to see you?

Then if you make a sexual move, it's coming from a source that for her she may not expect. Rarely works. Even if she does like the look of you in that way, because you're now her friend she may not want to jeopardise that friendship by getting physical, or she just wants to keep you around for the emotional support that she may not be getting from the guy who is getting physical with her. That happens a lot. When you're in a relationship being there for them in a good way is a must. At the very start, however a bit more detached confidence will serve you a lot better. Don't become her shrink or shoulder to cry on early on. That's fine later but the kiss of death in the early stages. Don't come across as needy either. Don't overdo the texts and calls etc. Be you and be fun around her, that will serve you a lot better. If when she thinks of you you don't want her to be thinking just of the bad stuff you've helped her through you want her to think of the fun she has with you. Put it this way, if you're going through a tough time and you have two women in your life, equally attractive. One is always listening to you moaning and groaning over whatever ails you and the other you have great craic with that distracts you from the grief in the rest of your life. Which is the more attractive? Now that's a black and white example and it's more subtle than that, but you get the idea.

I was taught this early on from an unlikely source. A very good mate of mine is gay with loads of female friends. One of which I was into at the time. I was getting nowhere except for being the shoulder to cry on. He pointed out my mistake one night. He basically said I was acting more like him, a gay friend, not someone who wanted to be her boyfriend. Good advice.

We've all done it, as we've bought into the idea that women want a nice romantic guy. They do, but not in the way you're going about it or it would have worked for you before. Now women will often tell you what they want in a guy, but equally often they're jumping the bones of a guy completely different to the ideal guy they describe. Sound familiar? The old chestnut of "women love bastards". They don't, but bastards give the right signals early on in the game. They come across as confident, mysterious and detached and that's an attractive quality initially. Long term it's anything but.

Another thing you're probably doing is leaving all the balls in her court. You're usually leaving all the decisions about the state of your relationship up to her. That's going to be irritating for either gender. State your case more often.

Also by acting passively all the time, you can come across as weak and immature. Sorry to say it, but that's how it can come across. You appear to be a boy not a man. This getting stuck in friendzone behaviour is far more common among younger men. Basically because they're young and not experienced in life or relationships and it shows. It's one of the reasons women will often seek out older guys as older guys generally know what they want out of themselves and for themselves and are a lot more attractive than a guy who doesn't. A man is not some macho stereotype either. He just simply likes himself, treats others with respect, yet knows what he wants and goes for it in a clear way. If he's refused he deals with it, not by moaning, but moving on from that in whatever way is appropriate for the situation. If he's confident and strong in himself then any partner he has will feel a lot safer with him if and when the shíte hits the fan.

Solution? Don't jump into shoulder to cry on at the start. Avoid that like the plague. If a woman you're talking to starts down that road, talking about exes or how all men are gits, change the subject in a jokey way. Be more fun. If she walks away from that, good luck to her. She's not going to pay you an hourly rate to be her therapist so no loss. It's a hard balancing act as you don't want to come across as a bad listener either. Ask her about work/college/holidays/socialising etc and listen to her, really listen to her answers, rather than getting into personal stuff early on. You've got plenty of time for that later. Don't get into personal stuff about yourself either. Big no no. You don't want to come across as having too much baggage.

Make it clear you find her physically attractive, again in a jokey, but direct way. You don't need anymore friends you want a girlfriend.

If you're not making any headway, make your excuses and leave, otherwise you'll end up at the end of the night with her going off with someone else and you crying into your pint. Life's too short.

That may all sound a bit harsh and different situations and different people will throw that out the window, but as a general tack it has it's merits.

Wibbs

BEAT wrote:

its happens to girls too... I cant tell you how many times I have ended up being just "one of the guys"
it all boils down to finding the right one, there is no certain way to be.... you just have to be yourself and eventually you will come across the right one, in the meantime just have fun and dont expect it or look for it.. life is too short..
if it happens it happens if it doesnt move on,
its importanat to remember that whatever you are doing you are having fun,
you'd be surprised how many people are attracted to someone who is happy with themselves and really knows how to have a good time

Good advice and a lot more succinct than my ramblings.:D

Red Alert

That post should be put into the PI Biki Page if we've got one.

py2006

RejectedFriend wrote:

Hi all,

long story short, i'm absolutely sick to the teeth of being rejected by girls. I always end up "the good friend". I used to think it was because I was "too nice", which I didn't really mind either, but at times it gets really really too hard to be the shoulder to cry on for everyone when you want to be listened to and appreciated yourself.

Anyone else have this experience much?

I hear you OP. I wrote the book on this subject! Hell, I even directed and starred in the movie!

My head has been wrecked over the last 3-4 years falling into the "good friend" thing as you put it. In the end the friendship falls apart when they realise your interested!

Its the same old argument which has been debated on here before. If you treat them like sh1ite they will be all over you.

Caliden

Always let them know you're interested, either with a compliment or bold statement.
It's all fine and well being friendly to girls you meet but you have to subtely let them know you fancy them without coming across as a sleeze

Crumble Froo

my most significant ex, nad my current boyfriend were both very very close friends before we got together, and were both shoulders to cry on for me too.

since getting together wiht my ex, we broke up,a nd arent even friends anymore, and fúck the relationship,i just really really miss having him around as a mate. always remember what you might be losing... make sure youre serious before you ever try to make the friend-girlfriend transition.

my boyfriend though is still my best friend (which my ex wasnt when we were in a relationship)... these things can work out well

a lot of good advice up above as well though.

Rossibaby

what ya want to do is ignore these women make a point of it,make them think your not interested thats always the way,get them to like you!otherwise girls get bored nd thts never good.girlsike a bad guy not because they are bad but because they are unpredictable.in other words act ike you dont care,and they will come

Bottle_of_Smoke

Used to happen to me. I think the problem was I was saying what they wanted to hear rather than what I was thinking.

*cliché drum roll*

Be yourself.

Wibbs

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

I think the problem was I was saying what they wanted to hear rather than what I was thinking.

Or more likely you were saying what you thought they wanted to hear. If you actually said what they wanted to hear you wouldn't have any problem.

Be yourself.

Cliche indeed.:D It's a very very common bit of advice. I'm not so sure it's helpful. In some cases it can be very unhelpful.Put it this way if someone is being himself and not getting anywhere, maybe it's time to tone down what part of "yourself" is the problem. In any case in the mating game being yourself at least initially is hardly what people do.

Both genders try to make themselves look as attractive as possible. Women especially have that pressure. You tell a woman getting ready, primping and preening for the first date to "be herself". That extends to the emotional side too. Both are or should be on their best behaviour. If you met some woman and within minutes she was bending your ear about her exes or her unhappy family life, you would likely run a mile. I know I would. Now this is in a society that almost expects women to be the more emotional gender and still it would probably put you off. Reverse the roles and you can see why a lot of guys get the short end of the stick.

It also depends on the definition of being yourself. If it's being an open book emotionally within minutes of meeting, forget it. Game over. You'll look like an immature swivel eyed over emotional loony. Keep a bit of mystery about you. Be fairly clear about what you want as well. Try to appear in control of yourself. Being in control of yourself is an attractive quality.

narco wrote:

since getting together wiht my ex, we broke up,a nd arent even friends anymore, and fúck the relationship,i just really really miss having him around as a mate. always remember what you might be losing... make sure youre serious before you ever try to make the friend-girlfriend transition.

Like I wrote before a lot of women won't want to take the risk of losing you as a friend. They appear to be a lot less impulsive that way than men. The flip side of that of course is that if you break up women all too often come out with the frankly daft statement of "can we still be friends". A touch of the cake and eat it syndrome (as an aside Never go down that route unless or until you've both fully moved on from the BF/GF relationship.).

Rossibaby wrote:

what ya want to do is ignore these women make a point of it,make them think your not interested thats always the way,get them to like you!otherwise girls get bored nd thts never good.girlsike a bad guy not because they are bad but because they are unpredictable.in other words act ike you dont care,and they will come

I would say ignore is too strong and all of this depends on the ages of the people involved. Less bullshít as you get older in general. The unpredictable bit is true. The air of mystery. The lack of boredom. The thrill of discovery etc. The challenge that their influence might change you in some way. That's very common. I wrote in another thread that men think women will never change and women think men will. The joke is and I've seen this with a woman friend, if they do change the guy too much they can lose interest pretty quickly. I agree with getting them to like you first. I would say keeping your cards close to your chest about your feelings for them at the very start is a very very good plan. Nearly a rule in my book.

Crumble Froo

wow!

i only wrote that last night, and actually ran into that guy today!

first time ive seen him in about a year, and for the first time in just over two years, we've had an actual conversation:eek: :eek:

The_Conductor

narco wrote:

wow!

i only wrote that last night, and actually ran into that guy today!

first time ive seen him in about a year, and for the first time in just over two years, we've had an actual conversation:eek: :eek:

Be careful about being friends with him- your current bf may not be too impressed!!!

biko

This may seem like a joke but there is a lot of truth in it too.

A woman has a close male friend. This means that he is probably interested in her, which is why he hangs around so much. She sees him strictly as a friend.

This always starts out with "You're a great guy, but I don't like you in that way". This is roughly the equivalent for the guy of going to a job interview and the company saying, "You have a great resume, you have all the qualifications we are looking for, but we're not going to hire you. We will, however, use your resume as the basis for comparison for all other applicants. But, we're going to hire somebody who is far less qualified and is probably an alcoholic. And if he doesn't work out, we'll hire somebody else, but still not you. In fact, we will never hire you. But we will call you from time to time to complain about the person that we did hire".

MrBaseball

biko wrote:

This may seem like a joke but there is a lot of truth in it too.

A woman has a close male friend. This means that he is probably interested in her, which is why he hangs around so much. She sees him strictly as a friend.

This always starts out with "You're a great guy, but I don't like you in that way". This is roughly the equivalent for the guy of going to a job interview and the company saying, "You have a great resume, you have all the qualifications we are looking for, but we're not going to hire you. We will, however, use your resume as the basis for comparison for all other applicants. But, we're going to hire somebody who is far less qualified and is probably an alcoholic. And if he doesn't work out, we'll hire somebody else, but still not you. In fact, we will never hire you. But we will call you from time to time to complain about the person that we did hire".

Have I seen that before?

Anyway, as usual wibbs seems to be on the ball here.

If you're getting into the "friend zone" all the time , when you want more, that should be a pretty clear indication to you that there's something wrong with your approach. I suggest letting women know that you're into them, instead of just acting like an asexual friend and a doormat in the hopes that they'll see what a great guy you are, for a start.

Being a shoulder to cry on too hard for you? Good, stop doing it then. I have a girlfriend, she occasionally moans about stuff, that's fair enough, she's my girlfriend so I'm there for her. I have a couple of female friends. I NEVER act as a shoulder to cry on for them. I never would. I suggest you stop filling that role.

Wibbs

smccarrick wrote:

Be careful about being friends with him- your current bf may not be too impressed!!!

Very true and old feelings can resurface too if there was a core of actual love there. Then again from your description that's less likely unless he's changed in the intervening years.

biko wrote:

This always starts out with "You're a great guy, but I don't like you in that way". This is roughly the equivalent for the guy of going to a job interview and the company saying, "You have a great resume, you have all the qualifications we are looking for, but we're not going to hire you. We will, however, use your resume as the basis for comparison for all other applicants. But, we're going to hire somebody who is far less qualified and is probably an alcoholic. And if he doesn't work out, we'll hire somebody else, but still not you. In fact, we will never hire you. But we will call you from time to time to complain about the person that we did hire".

Class.:D As you said very true though.

MrBaseball wrote:

Anyway, as usual wibbs seems to be on the ball here.

Makes a nice change for me. I must be sick. Better have a little lie down..:D

If you're getting into the "friend zone" all the time , when you want more, that should be a pretty clear indication to you that there's something wrong with your approach. I suggest letting women know that you're into them, instead of just acting like an asexual friend and a doormat in the hopes that they'll see what a great guy you are, for a start.

Nail on head. When you act like that, you're basically telling them you're not a sexual being, you don't act "worthy" of them and it's more advantageous for them to keep you in the friend zone.

Being a shoulder to cry on too hard for you? Good, stop doing it then.

Exactly. Why continue to do something that doesn't work for you? Makes no sense.

I have a girlfriend, she occasionally moans about stuff, that's fair enough, she's my girlfriend so I'm there for her.

Which is good and you're getting both the good and the bad stuff because you're having a sexual/love relationship. Frankly that's what it boils down to. We can get all romantic here, but that's no use if you're not getting action frankly. Pink fluffy love hearts aside that's the very basic need you're looking for here. A loving sexual relationship with a woman you find attractive. You've enough friends already. As I said before it's not your job to be her friend. Why be the emotional support for someone who is then getting naked with another who may not be giving her that? The fact is you're helping him out. Crazy

I have a couple of female friends. I NEVER act as a shoulder to cry on for them. I never would. I suggest you stop filling that role.

Funny enough with my female mates I have done in the past and I would be there to support them in the future the same way I would for my male mates. The simple reason being I don't fancy them. Same goes for girlfriends, but only after they become my girlfriend.

CathyMoran

I personally think that it is fine to be friends as long as you are not friends for too long. I was friends with my husband for 3 weeks before we started dating (though I did have a crush on him ). If I was friends with someone for too long the idea of loosing the friendship was worse than starting a potentially wonderful relationship. There are exceptions of course, one of my best friends is now dating a girl that he was friends with for 8 years!

Crumble Froo

smccarrick wrote:

Be careful about being friends with him- your current bf may not be too impressed!!!

haha, nah, i got with my boyfriend about 6-8 weeks after me nad the ex broke up, back then, we were just completely platonic friends, and my bf knows exactly how i felt about my ex, and that i missed the friendship more than anything else.

also, the fact that my move to nz, to my boyfriend, away from all the people i used to know is a pretty comforting fact for him i reckon :P

Wibbs

CathyMoran wrote:

I personally think that it is fine to be friends as long as you are not friends for too long. I was friends with my husband for 3 weeks before we started dating (though I did have a crush on him ). If I was friends with someone for too long the idea of loosing the friendship was worse than starting a potentially wonderful relationship. There are exceptions of course, one of my best friends is now dating a girl that he was friends with for 8 years!

Yes it can happen and it's more likely to happen the older the two people are.

smccarrick wrote:

Be careful about being friends with him- your current bf may not be too impressed!!!

Very true and old feelings can resurface too if there was a core of actual love there. Then again from your description that's less likely unless he's changed in the intervening years and other circumstances have changed.

biko wrote:

This always starts out with "You're a great guy, but I don't like you in that way". This is roughly the equivalent for the guy of going to a job interview and the company saying, "You have a great resume, you have all the qualifications we are looking for, but we're not going to hire you. We will, however, use your resume as the basis for comparison for all other applicants. But, we're going to hire somebody who is far less qualified and is probably an alcoholic. And if he doesn't work out, we'll hire somebody else, but still not you. In fact, we will never hire you. But we will call you from time to time to complain about the person that we did hire".

Class.:D As you said very true though.

MrBaseball wrote:

Anyway, as usual wibbs seems to be on the ball here.

Makes a nice change for me. I must be sick. Better have a little lie down..:D

If you're getting into the "friend zone" all the time , when you want more, that should be a pretty clear indication to you that there's something wrong with your approach. I suggest letting women know that you're into them, instead of just acting like an asexual friend and a doormat in the hopes that they'll see what a great guy you are, for a start.

Nail on head. When you act like that, you're basically telling them you're not a sexual being, you don't act "worthy" of them and it's more advantageous for them to keep you in the friend zone. The whole alpha male idea does get trotted out a bit, but there is some truth in it. Luckily for men it's not all down to looks either. Forget about the pure physical attraction part for a second and think of the ideal man for most women. Emotionally strong, supportive and stable, in control of himself and situations that may throw others off, socially comfortable, well developed sense of humour, mature, confident(not cocky) with an obvious sense of who he is and what he wants. An air of layers to be discovered helps. An air of mystery. Money and power in men work as attractive qualities precisely because they can accentuate some of those features, like confidence and control(not always of course). Now think of what you may be doing that are lessening those features in you.

Being a shoulder to cry on too hard for you? Good, stop doing it then.

Exactly. Why continue to do something that doesn't work for you? Makes no sense.

I have a girlfriend, she occasionally moans about stuff, that's fair enough, she's my girlfriend so I'm there for her.

Which is good and you're getting both the good and the bad stuff because you're having a sexual/love relationship. Frankly that's what it boils down to. We can get all romantic here, but that's no use if you're not getting action frankly. Pink fluffy love hearts aside that's the very basic need you're looking for here. A loving sexual relationship with a woman you find attractive. You've enough friends already. As I said before it's not your job to be her friend. Why be the emotional support for someone who is then getting naked with another who may not be giving her that? The fact is you're helping him out. Crazy

I have a couple of female friends. I NEVER act as a shoulder to cry on for them. I never would. I suggest you stop filling that role.

Funny enough with my female mates I have done in the past and I would be there to support them in the future the same way I would for my male mates. The simple reason being I don't fancy them. Same goes for girlfriends, but usually only after they become my girlfriend. You can get lucky with someone that is really on your wavelength, but in general it's better to be a bit distant at first, especially if you're meeting them in nights on the rip.

The Bollox

OP, this is a pain I know only too well. out of my group of friends I would be considired to have one of the best personalities, and have no problem talking to girls. It's making them know I want some sexy time, and that I not just here to make them laugh. it's a pain in the hole

MrBaseball

Wibbs wrote:

Funny enough with my female mates I have done in the past and I would be there to support them in the future the same way I would for my male mates. The simple reason being I don't fancy them. Same goes for girlfriends, but usually only after they become my girlfriend. You can get lucky with someone that is really on your wavelength, but in general it's better to be a bit distant at first, especially if you're meeting them in nights on the rip.

Going off on a tangent here but, personally, I don't really fall into the "I am 100% not attracted to her" school of thought regarding female friends. They are my friends because we get on well with each other and enjoy each others company. They are also usually goodlooking. So, I just don't get the "i am not attracted to them" line. I mean, I could understand if they were all ugly and annoying, but if they are goodlooking girls who you get on with, surely there'll be a bit of attraction there somewhere. Then again, I don't really have any "close friend" situations with women, to be honest. Just people I talk with in college or whatever. More than acquaintences, but not like a good male friend...

I often think that the type of people who can be good friends with women and help them with emotional stuff and not get attached or let it mess with their head a bit must be more in control of their emotions than I am.

Wibbs

MrBaseball wrote:

Going off on a tangent here but, personally, I don't really fall into the "I am 100% not attracted to her" school of thought regarding female friends. They are my friends because we get on well with each other and enjoy each others company. They are also usually goodlooking. So, I just don't get the "i am not attracted to them" line. I mean, I could understand if they were all ugly and annoying, but if they are goodlooking girls who you get on with, surely there'll be a bit of attraction there somewhere. Then again, I don't really have any "close friend" situations with women, to be honest. Just people I talk with in college or whatever. More than acquaintences, but not like a good male friend...

Not so much of a tangent given the situation with the OP and others. I've two very close women friends. Know them for years. Never had anything sexual with either of them. Lookswise? They are both good looking, intelligent funny women. Now I can see why men would go for them. Not really a stretch of the imagination for me, it's just that for whatever reason I never felt that way about them(altough some of their exes got their knickers in a bunch over our closeness at times). They're more like family members really. They're also handy yardsticks on seeing how the other side thinks.

I often think that the type of people who can be good friends with women and help them with emotional stuff and not get attached or let it mess with their head a bit must be more in control of their emotions than I am.

Maybe. I dunno. For me I just don't think of them in that way. I mean I have been "friends" with women way back that I found attractive and that didn't really pan out for the reasons I've outlined above. It also can be an age thing too. It can be down to the idea that men and women are separate species and the only interaction that's comfortable is with your respective naughty bits. Not true at all and if you end up thinking that way any long term relationship can be heading for trouble.

LegacyUser

'Well I am in similar position to OP and my attitude is i do not do friends or bother with any girl who is in a relationship with spomeone else. I feel they just use me while waiting for someone else or when they are bored. I prefer books they do not reject me'

Pepe LeFrits

Call Me Jimmy wrote:

Agree almost 100%, girls want a man, not a pussy, they already have one of those. The reason you're in the friends zone is because, as biko said, you aren't making it clear you want to ride em, or you are hanging around them after rejection.

Thread could have been closed after this post!

OP, you're an 'orbitter'. Stop orbitting.

Wibbs

notregd wrote:

'Well I am in similar position to OP and my attitude is i do not do friends or bother with any girl who is in a relationship with spomeone else. I feel they just use me while waiting for someone else or when they are bored.

While there is value in keeping some distance, blanket attitudes like that are equally unhelpful. Plainly they're unhelpful as you're still in the friendzone(or not). If you think that and radiate that, why are you surprised at the lack of results?

I prefer books they do not reject me'

Again if you expect rejection, the chances are good you will be, or will walk right by someone who won't reject you. Too often people would rather have their preconceptions proved "right" than be happy. Books won't keep you warm at night.

Pepe LeFrits wrote:

Thread could have been closed after this post!

True enough, but for a lot out there it's down to the "how" and "why" of what they may be doing wrong.