Intentional string bet, angle shooting?

Lazare

JP's Sunday game.

200/400 level, I'm in CO with 34k (can't remember what I have), MP limps (20k), I make it 1500, folded to him, he calls. Flop is A47r, he donks for 1800, I intend to raise and throw out a 5k chip, it's only when the dealer is giving back change do I realise I've stringed. I announce my mistake.
The turn is a brick and he thinks for a bit, looks a little nervous then checks, I bet 6k and he folds.

A couple of hours later on a different table, I have 53os OTB, two limpers for 1200 and I throw out a 5k chip and say raise, but the dealer rules the chip was in the pot before I said raise, fair enough, my stupid fault. Oscar completes the SB and BB checks. Flop comes raggy with a 3, it's checked to me and I bet 6k and take the pot. Oscar says after the hand, 'you missed out on some value there, if you raised I was gonna squeez'.

My point is, on both occasions I obviously didn't intend to string bet, but both times it won me the pot. In the first hand, if he leads the turn, I fold saving myself 3k, and the second one I would've had to fold preflop losing 5k.

Would using this as an occasional tactic be a slimy angle shoot, or would you consider it fair game?

5starpool

It depends who does it. Chances are if it is a regular player who never has been caught for string raising that does something like this then chances are that it will be an angle shoot and you can pick this up. Also, it may backfire if the dealer allows it for some reason, or gives you the benefit of the doubt that time.

In general though I hate angle shooting. It is something I never do and don't like when I see others doing it.

Lazare

5starpool wrote:

In general though I hate angle shooting. It is something I never do and don't like when I see others doing it.

I totally agree, I'm interested to see if anyone would consider this fair, and maybe have done it.

mdwexford

on the first occasion i wouldnt announce my mistake because it looks weak, id just pretend i meant to call.

2nd one id get a ruling if the dealer was just being awkward.

id never angle shoot, its just below slow rolling on the list of scummy things to do on the poker table

Lazare

mdwexford wrote:

on the first occasion i wouldnt announce my mistake because it looks weak, id just pretend i meant to call.

Since I raised preflop, I think flat calling would look very weak on that board and make it more difficult to take it on the turn, he would surely lead out again, that was the reason I announced it.

bohsman

2nd hand it was fairly obvious you meant to raise, personally as a dealer I would have asked you "is that a raise?" when you threw it out as you had the right change to call.

It also gave me a chance to check raise if I had hit the flop with AQ so other players are getting free info out of it aswell.

Lazare

bohsman wrote:

It also gave me a chance to check raise if I had hit the flop with AQ so other players are getting free info out of it aswell.

Yeah good point, I'm always (C)betting every checked flop. Although yourself and Ray were the only two capable of utilising any free info.

pumpkinpints

The rules in JPs games are that if someone throws in a 5K chip and has the change then its a raise regardless of whether you announce it.

mdwexford

pumpkinpints wrote:

The rules in JPs games are that if someone throws in a 5K chip and has the change then its a raise regardless of whether you announce it.

the rules are incorrect then

JP Poker

mdwexford wrote:

the rules are incorrect then

Hi mdwexford,

I didn't make up the rule set that i use myself, instead i have adopted "The Roberts Rules of Poker" which states if a player has lower value chips to make the call, but uses a higher value chip this is then a raise.

This appears to have been a dealer error. I will go through this with all of my dealers again before this Sundays game.

pumpkinpints

JP Poker wrote:

Hi mdwexford,

I didn't make up the rule set that i use myself, instead i have adopted "The Roberts Rules of Poker" which states if a player has lower value chips to make the call, but uses a higher value chip this is then a raise.

This appears to have been a dealer error. I will go through this with all of my dealers again before this Sundays game.

i think you would be better to change it imho.

bohsman

I like it JP, much fairer.

mdwexford

JP Poker wrote:

Hi mdwexford,

I didn't make up the rule set that i use myself, instead i have adopted "The Roberts Rules of Poker" which states if a player has lower value chips to make the call, but uses a higher value chip this is then a raise.

This appears to have been a dealer error. I will go through this with all of my dealers again before this Sundays game.

Hello JP,

Most of those rules are pretty good but i have never played anywhere that a big chip is automatically a raise without announcing it, regardless of whether the player had change or not.

it makes it more awkward for dealers as well as they would be constantly asking is that a call or a raise if everyone was throwing in big chips and not stating their intentions.

bohsman

mdwexford wrote:

Hello JP,
it makes it more awkward for dealers as well as they would be constantly asking is that a call or a raise if everyone was throwing in big chips and not stating their intentions.

They should do that anyway, as it stands theyre going to have to explain that its only a call because etc everytime.

mdwexford

bohsman wrote:

They should do that anyway, as it stands theyre going to have to explain that its only a call because etc everytime.

the players should??

but if they had normal rules then the player wouldnt have to say call every time he bets a big chip. im just used to the normal way and would find it strange.

bohsman

No, the dealers have to explain that its only a call, you shouldve said raise etc. I just feel this is fairer, its the same as the string bet, people dont do it on purpose, they just dont know any better so players are basically angle shooting by making it a call.

As a dealer I have always asked, anyone that complained I explained that it was obvious that he intended to raise and that it stood.

mdwexford

yeah i understand your point now, i suppose there is less room for mistakes by novices this way. i have seen a lot of that angle shooting going on with more experienced players taking advantage of beginners.

RoundTower

that rule sounds like a mess JP. Someone bets 2350 or something, other guy fiddles with his 100 chips and thinks he doesn't have enough so he throws in a 5k chip to call. Dealer notices he has two more 100 chips than player thought he had, so he had enough to call 2350. Is this a raise?

RoundTower

also I don't see that rule in this link to Robert's Rules of Poker and had never heard of it before

http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/poker/chapter3.php

JP Poker

RoundTower wrote:

that rule sounds like a mess JP. Someone bets 2350 or something, other guy fiddles with his 100 chips and thinks he doesn't have enough so he throws in a 5k chip to call. Dealer notices he has two more 100 chips than player thought he had, so he had enough to call 2350. Is this a raise?

Hi Roundtower,

In that case above. The player could solve the confusion by just saying call when put the 5k chip in.

mdwexford

RoundTower wrote:

that rule sounds like a mess JP. Someone bets 2350 or something, other guy fiddles with his 100 chips and thinks he doesn't have enough so he throws in a 5k chip to call. Dealer notices he has two more 100 chips than player thought he had, so he had enough to call 2350. Is this a raise?

thats the exact situation that i was thinking of yesterday, i would not be happy if i meant to call and all of a sudden half my stack was on the line

bohsman

They obviously arent very strict on it as it didnt happen in the example lazare gave.

mdwexford

yeah in both of Lazare's hands it should have been a raise according to JP's rules, but it was only a call both times.

RoundTower

JP Poker wrote:

Hi Roundtower,

In that case above. The player could solve the confusion by just saying call when put the 5k chip in.

this is a silly response. The player can always clarify what he is doing by announcing it verbally. I am asking about how you apply the rule mentioned above, which covers the situation where the player does not announce his action verbally.

Cuban Son

JP Poker wrote:

I didn't make up the rule set that i use myself, instead i have adopted "The Roberts Rules of Poker" which states if a player has lower value chips to make the call, but uses a higher value chip this is then a raise.

This appears to have been a dealer error. I will go through this with all of my dealers again before this Sundays game.

from roundtowers link wrote:

15. If you put a single chip in the pot that is larger than the bet , but do not announce a raise , you are assumed to have only called. Example: In a $3-$6 game, when a player bets $6 and the next player puts a $25 chip in the pot without saying anything, that player has merely called the $6 bet .

This is correct.

Wombatman

Betting out of turn is another nasty one for angle shooting. Guy in our home game pulls it from time to time. Saw Yukon Brad do it on HSP S3 v's Townsend.

mormank

i was once dealing a table and a guy pushed in about a third of his stack over the line and then took them back out and grabbed the rest and said 'all in'.

i pulled him on it saying it was a string bet..which he said was ok at the time. so the bet was only a third of his stack. which was maybe a third of the pot aswell. he won the pot on the assumption of him wantin to go all in.

he later told me he did this 'manouvre' on purpose cos he knew i would pull him on it therefore only risking a third of his chips on the bluff while giving out the impression to other players on the table that he wanted to push al in!! comments??

pumpkinpints

mormank wrote:

i was once dealing a table and a guy pushed in about a third of his stack over the line and then took them back out and grabbed the rest and said 'all in'.

i pulled him on it saying it was a string bet..which he said was ok at the time. so the bet was only a third of his stack. which was maybe a third of the pot aswell. he won the pot on the assumption of him wantin to go all in.

he later told me he did this 'manouvre' on purpose cos he knew i would pull him on it therefore only risking a third of his chips on the bluff while giving out the impression to other players on the table that he wanted to push al in!! comments??

wp

JP Poker

Cuban Son wrote:

This is correct.

Hi Paul,

I've read the link the roundtower has posted here (which is an updated version to the one i used). The rule appears to have been revised.

The version i used at the time gave an example (something along the lines of this).

Blinds 500-1000
UTG who has numerous 1k chips, places a 5k across the line and says nothing. Folded around to the BB, who calls and for 5k.

At this point UTG says that he only called, several players at the table complain as the would have called for 1k.

The rule was there to protect players from people angle shooting.

That said there must be a reason why it has been removed from the latest version.

I will review the rule.

Cuban Son

Hi JP, sorry if the post looks like I'm angle shooting myself, but as a dealer and even before, this was always my understanding of the single chip rule.
My intention was not to poke holes in your way of doing things as I know you run a quality event, and house rules vary, but to highlight an inaccuracy in standard play.
I can understand someone under-raising by more than half the bet
to gain info, therefore the rule was brought in that it stands as a full raise, as it happens quite frequently, and I see your point about protecting newbies to the game but you can usually guarantee people are helpful to new comers and they don't usually make the same mistake twice.