Dublin City Cycle - Sunday July 29th

Slice

Anyone participating in the Dublin City Cycle this coming Sunday?

http://www.dublincitycycle.ie

Just a question for anyone who knows - if you're registering online to participate are you suppose to get a confirmation email and is the absence of a confirmation email some sort of indication that there are no more places left?

Dirk Gently

DUB CYCLE EVENT WEBSITE wrote:

Numbers are limited to 4500 for this year’s Dublin City Cycle so participants will be registered on a first come first served basis.

DUB CYCLE EVENT WEBSITE wrote:

Normal Rules of the Road apply for the Dublin City Cycle so:
Keep to your Left
Obey signals and instructions from the Gardai
Cycle with courtesy and consideration for other road users

From the info on the site it appears that this will be a major event, "limited" to the first 4500 cyclists registered. Just wondering from the second quote above, if traffic will be diverted from the roads in question for the event or if cyclists will have to hug the kerb as usual and give way to vehicle traffic. Not very practical if even a percentage of the 4500 number turn up. I assume one lane along the length of the route will be for the use of cyclists only?

I also notice they went out of their way on the safety section of their site to warn cyclists to avoid poor road surfaces (of which the route is littered) but not a mention about the mandatory use of helmets for anyone taking part. I would have thought that would be a must for thousands of people taking part in an event like this on dodgy roads.


EDIT:

Just spotted this on the FAQ section of the site:

Do I need to wear a safety Helmet?
No, but we would encourage children to wear cycle helmets.
back to top


Will any Roads be closed prior to the event?
No, the roads will not be closed
back to top

Membrane

clown bag wrote:

I also notice they went out of their way on the safety section of their site to warn cyclists to avoid poor road surfaces (of which the route is littered) but not a mention about the mandatory use of helmets for anyone taking part. I would have thought that would be a must for thousands of people taking part in an event like this on dodgy roads.

Irrespective of the quality of the road, scientific research does not support the conclusion that on balance there is a benefit to wearing a helmet: http://www.cyclehelmets.org/

beans

Hopefully this year none of the riders will be put in the same position as last year - sharing the Quays with HGVs, kids and inexperienced riders sharing the same piece of tarmac as vans, trucks and cars.

This year I shall be out of the country, but it's a fun evening out.

garo

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you there Membrane. That site is full of shoddy pseudo-science. Helmets are probably not the main factor in injury to cyclists - proper cycle lanes are. There may be some truth to the claim that cyclists become more careless when they wear helmets as they feel less vulnerable. But for a careful cyclist, helmets do increase safety.

That site, on the other hand, gives us gems like this:

Some studies have found that only hard shell helmets protect from head injury [2], or that non-approved helmets offer no benefit [1]. It is difficult to see why non-approved and soft shell helmets should offer no benefit at all if protection from hard shell helmets is significant. In today's fashion-conscious market, most helmets on sale have only a thin microshell if any at all, and hard shell helmets are difficult to buy.

Membrane

garo wrote:

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you there Membrane. That site is full of shoddy pseudo-science.

Prejudice prevents proper judgement of research.

Helmets are probably not the main factor in injury to cyclists - proper cycle lanes are.

Given your earlier demonstrated inability, I'm not going to bother challenging this other common fallacy.

garo

Membrane wrote:

Prejudice prevents proper judgement of research.

Precisely what I accuse the site of.

Given your earlier demonstrated inability, I'm not going to bother challenging this other common fallacy.

I am not interested in a slanging match. My post was not an ad hominem attack whereas your last comment can be interpreted as one.

I actually spent a half hour going through the site and some of the linked papers. I find its interpretation of the research dubious and "prejudiced". For the record, I am a scientist by training and research is how I earn my living. Of course, I could be a bad researcher so that is neither here, nor there.

Re: cycle lanes. I would much rather commute to work in Copenhagen or Amsterdam than Dublin. And I'm sure most people on this board who have visited either city feel the same.

mcgratheoin

From the policy statement on the website.

Whilst cyclehelmets.org strives to be objective in its selection of information for presentation, there is more helmet-sceptic material on this web site than that supportive of helmets.

I find it strange that an admission of helmet-sceptic bias forms part of the website's policy statement. While the site may strive to be objective - their introduction page is far from it. The editorial content of the website is entirely biased towards the argued ineffectiveness of helmets. To draw the conclusion that mandatory helmet wearing increases obesity levels is tenuous at best, and I believe that the motives behind this website are questionable and not in line with the stated aim of objectivity.

Either way, people are free to wear or ignore a helmet should they so choose.

Titiritero

What I find hard to believe is why do they limit it to 4500 people? Got that surprise too when I went to register. Is it not supposed to promote cycling habits? Improve awareness of other road users towards cyclists? Then the more the better, or not? Once they´re going to get the infrastructure ready (police, ambulances, traffic control, etc) I don´t see the point of having a limit. Besides, from previous years, most people don´t bother registering.

I'm going, I enjoyed 2 years ago (wasn´t here last year)

Dirk Gently

Titiritero wrote:

(police, ambulances, traffic control, etc)

is this in place? I got an e-mail today after registering during the week and I was given a mobile number to call in case of an accident. Never attended in previous years but I'm still not clear as to if the roads are closed to other traffic during the event, the website suggests not. tbh for such a short distance and the amount of kiddies and pot holes I'm likely to be spending my time avoiding I might just stick to howth or the park on Sunday.

blorg

Try not to get your knickers in a twist, there is probably some legalistic reason for limiting to 4,500. If it makes that it will be doing well, don't let that stop you from going along on the day, I would go myself but I'm off from this rain and hope to be over the Pyrenees by Sunday.

Shaymoboy

Anyone know why this event was moved from a week evening last year to a Sunday this year?

I thought the week evening was a better for getting participants.

S

robfitz

Shaymoboy wrote:

Anyone know why this event was moved from a week evening last year to a Sunday this year?

The two previous events were held mid week. This event isn't like Critical Mass it's meant to be a fun family cycle in the city, weekends should mean it's more practical for parents to bring there kids into town.

ba

ive just returned from the dublin city cycle.

i doubt the circuit was 10.14Km but it was good craic + the weather was great. some eejits were complaining about it not being exactly 10Km. retards imo. like theyre supposed to get a pat on the back for cycling this tiny distance.

there were a lot of children there, so when the horn blew i made sure to get up the front, as not to hang around with people who are shakey on a bike, there were a lot of this type.

i hung directly behind the lead garda car with some other racers and with those that could manage.

so when i was leaving, this is the thing i am concerned about, a family were complaining to a garda about it being too fast? the once large group of hundreds of cyclists inevitably streched out due to those who are in good shape or with kids or slow, at points there was only 1 lane for us and nobody communicated about pot-holes, a large peleton would have been crazy, so i believe this woman to be full of BS. another woman asked if the pace could be reduced, another BSer. imo it was definately safer for a less dense group. i am worried that these said leisure cyclists will undermine the success of the event just because they couldnt keep up.

i'd like to know what others think, particularly those that were there.

Shaymoboy

I am just back from the cycle. I was about mid way through the cycle crowd. At one time, we got split off into a group of 10 and almost lost our way. Some cyclist became angry at the lack of organisation and with the preference the gardaí were given to motorist. At one point on Pearce Street it became dangerous as we were sharing the road with motor cars and buses. As a whole, the event was badly organised with the gardaí taking the rap. On the plus side the weather was great and there was a good turnout. I guess the verdit is 'could do better'.

S

PurpleFistMixer

I did this, very proud of myself. Only got back into cycling at all a while back when my mum told me about it, so it was a great excuse to push myself!

So glad the weather was good, could have been dire but it was perfect. : )

I was worried I'd be exhausted after cycling in to town from Blackrock but I guess I'm fitter than I thought I was. : p

Was a bit dodgy at points especially around the beginning where everyone was packed together, I was somewhere near the middle, expecting me and my mum to end up at the back but we were far from the worst there! Avoiding kids swerving around was a bit tricky but finally we ended up with a group of others going our own pace.

We hadn't examined the route map very carefully so we were completely confused at times as to where we were meant to go, but the gardaí were helpful.

I thought at first that they were going to close the roads so I was a little put off when I found out they were left open, I'm terrified of cycling with traffic.. ended up grand though because there were so many of us, and the gardaí organising the traffic for us!

All in all it was a great thing to do, can't wait till next year! : )

Thomas_B

Three of us went down today, it was a great atmosphere before the start, people there from 6 to 60 and a great range of bikes (I loved the guy with the animal horns strapped to his handlebars!)

Once we set off we ended up about 2/3 the way back -- we were just happy enjoying the sunshine and chatting to people and enjoying riding down the quays unmolested! Loads of kids, a really good atmosphere.

The problem happened from the Dame St./George's St. junction onwards -- up to that point all junctions were manned by gardaí and we sailed through safely. Suddenly we were all in the middle of traffic -- I had to cycle beside a little six year-old who was stuck outside her mother and was fairly exposed to the ongoing traffic. Fair enough, we were told that we had to obey the rules of the road, but to be suddenly exposed to full-on Dame St. traffic was a bit unfortunate.

ba wrote:

i made sure to get up the front, as not to hang around with people who are shakey on a bike, there were a lot of this type.

i hung directly behind the lead garda car with some other racers and with those that could manage.

ba wrote:

i am worried that these said leisure cyclists will undermine the success of the event just because they couldnt keep up.

I find that attitude a bit disappointing. Surely the whole point of this event is that it's supposed to be a family-type gig that anyone with a set of two wheels can take part in.

I'm sure you and the other "racers" were happy enough belting down behind the garda escort, but because of the fast pace, many of the rest of us were left battling cars (the groups got split up to let traffic through) and the parents cycling with kids especially had a bit of a nightmare time.

It was such a shame because the first half up to Dame St. was so pleasant -- and you really got the feeling that many people who wouldn't normally cycle in town were getting in to the cycling buzz and having a great time.

Those of us who are experienced cyclists can presumably deal with the horrors of Dublin traffic -- so I fail to see the point of the organisers letting people belt ahead at a breakneck pace. If there was a slower pace taken then everyone could have stayed in one (albeit quite long) group which would have been much safer and would have made the event far more enjoyable.

ba

i understand that it wasnt 'a race'. we werent racing, or breaking speed limits.

if you wanna hang round with the kiddies, by all means. when the event is advertised as a day 'open to all levels of fitness' i presume its alright to follow the escort car. as did many dozens. at the front its much easier to avoid accidents and TDF style crashes, as we've all seen recently. there is NO safety in numbers, unfortunatley thomas.

shakey riders and inexperienced scare the hell outta me, especailly if one is all over the shop swerving and i cant see the road in front of me.

BendiBus

ba wrote:

i presume its alright to follow the escort car.

Was the escort car setting the pace for you or vice versa?

ba

the escort car was.

oobydooby

Why did you attend ba? As far as I recall from another thread here, you only recently joined a cycling club. It was pretty clear that this event was targeted at inexperienced cyclists and families and perhaps people who would like to cycle more around the city. Surely the only reason for a club cyclist (if you would consider yourself such already) to attend such an event would be to offer advice, encouragement and helpful tips to others.

ba

what relevance has this got oobydooby? what does it matter if i have joined a club? i was there to support with friend and family. and nobody was asking for advice. i tried to tell people to beware of potholes and parked cars tho.

Titiritero

I went last Sunday to the city cycle and I must say:

-the event was great. Loads of people in good spirit, families, kids, messengers, commuters,… The whole cycling community was represented there. The weather was perfect too.
-the organisation was quite poor. Not enough gardai to block incoming traffic, causing several dangerous moments with kids cycling surrounded by passing buses, taxis and other cars. Also, no final car to close the convoy. At a certain point I had to lend my pump to a guy that was carrying his 2 kids in a trailer. We fell behind the group, and to catch on we had to cycle along the quays overtaking loaded trucks coming from the port, risky stuff when carrying a trailer with kids.

I understand moving the event to a Sunday to make it easier for families. What I didn’t understand is why a mini-marathon can block the entire city for a whole morning, but the cyclists don’t deserve a mere 1 hour of traffic free streets on a Sunday morning to enjoy the city safely.

I think BA went to the wrong event if he thinks it was too slow. The whole thing was designed for everybody (including some 4 year old kids that could barely reach the pedals) to enjoy a fun and safe cycle in the city. I understand families complaining of being too fast, as I saw a few kids that could barely keep the pace (slow as it was, but not as much when you learnt to walk just a couple of years back!) and it was easy to fall behind if you had to inflate a tyre, mind that child that fell off his/her bike or re-fit a loose helmet.

Drapper

Simple.

They should have closed off the streets. All levels means all levels "fast and slow" the last time I checked??

Just needs to be properly managed and streets closed off a similar event in Melbourne Oz, attracted 200k people and in Amsterdam about 250k........... of all levels!

beans

I was in communication with the organisers by email and over the phone last year, expressing my concerns about the exposure of the young and inexperienced riders to traffic.

I had to cycle beside a little six year-old who was stuck outside her mother and was fairly exposed to the ongoing traffic.

From this and other posts I gather nothing has changed.

Would it be fair to say that if the route is not closed off to vehicular traffic for the duration of the event, that the event should not take place at all? The only other option would be to have a safe facility along the route that could accomodate that number of riders safely - that aint going to happen.

Trojan

Do you guys think any of the less experienced cyclists would now consider cycling in traffic as easier or safer than they might have thought previously?

I was thinking of that as a positive side-effect of newbies being mixed with city traffic.

beans

That's a good point. Cycling in the city has always suffered from the public perception that it's akin to a deathwish. Of course it's not, and the more folk who understand that the better.

It's perfectly safe to cycle in Dublin once you're aware of the traffic around you, and aware of yourself as a cyclist. My experience of those on the DCC showed many who knew how to hold their own on the road, when to brake, how to deal with a stopped vehicle on the quays etc. If the cycle showed them how cycling in Dublin is, then great.

But there were also a lot of cyclists who were breezing through junctions, swerving around the place - the little girl I saw got stuck between a JJ Kavanaghs bus on her left and an artic trailer on her right, she started looking around for her Ma and swerving left and right, how she didnt go under the trailer is beyond me. You're bringing that standard out and encouraging that it's a safe, fun day out. Potentially neither, if someone gets squished.

robfitz

Though I have very strong feeling against a lot of what the DTO and DCC do, this is one event I'm very much in favour off. If any of you were there I was one of the guys giving out Dublin Cycling Campaign fliers.


To give some background to my point of view. I've taken part in a number of urban cycling events including the two previous City Cycles, many critical mass cycles, I gave a guide tour to delegates at Velo-city Dublin and took part in a number of cycle events in Velo-city Munich, etc.

The problem was that the event was not coordinated correctly on the day, was not manned with enough cyclists and the right type of cyclists.

The most important objective is to move as a large group (safety in numbers), coordinating cyclists need to be possitioined at the front, a few in the middle and a larger group at the back, and then use radios to slowdown, stop the group, or report issues.

The reason to have the large group of coordinators at the back, is that one or two of them can look after someone with a problem and then catch up with the rest of the group. A family group with young children should never be allowed fall behind, adults might be OK as long as they know the route.

The other thing is the Gardai aren't there to set the pace of the group, they in cooperation with the coordinators are there to make sure the group moves safely through the streets by blocking traffic, etc.

The right type of cyclist is someone who as taken part in events like this before members of DTO/DCC staff, Dublin Cycling Campaign, Cycling Ireland, etc. As far as I could tell the two cyclists at the end were just normal event security guards who happened to have bicycles (there was a support vehicle), but it seemed they were not able to keep the group moving together. I didn't see any Gardai moving along with the end of the group.


About the day I didn't move off until the very end

Almost immediately I came across a person who's chain had come off the gears on his Brompton which took a bit of head scratching to figure out now to rethread it. I then came across a late arriving father with his young family, I took an assertive road positions and cycled along with them for about 10 minutes until we caught up with the back of the main group.

I then helped a lady and man with a very flat tyre on the quays, by the time we got going again the head of the group was on Westmorland Street, they skipped the rest of the quays, but I quickly cycled up and around Dame Street looking for an stragglers. I did find a few people but they were able to rejoin the main group at College Green.

The end of the group moved along Nashua Street but other road vehicles did seem to be able get in and around the cyclists. At Merrion Square a father and his son got left behind (trying to take photos) and another group of adults got stuck due to one of them getting something stuck in his wheel. I stayed with them for about 15 minutes as we fumbled are way along. The father gave up at Pearse Street his son was really struggling to keep up, they said the were going to cross the Liffey by the foot bridge. I caught back up with the adults but they seemed fine. So I cycled on but I was never able to catch up the back of the group.

By the time I got to the finish, a lot of people had already left so I think it must have been a least 15 minutes after everybody else.


In the end I think the group must have spread out over at least a kilometre, with such a low density of cyclists it could only be expected that other road vehicles would get mixed up with the cyclists. Road surface was bad as ever but as long as you paid attention you'd be fine. Speed was fine for an adult but some kids did seem to be struggling, fixed gears etc.

Could have been done better but still worth doing.

Membrane

robfitz wrote:

The problem was that the event was not coordinated correctly on the day, was not manned with enough cyclists and the right type of cyclists.

When I read about the event I thought, "not for me", not realising that there was a need for experienced and city wise cyclists to do some form of marshalling. Sounds like you made a positive contribution on the day rob, well done. Next time, give us a shout in here and some of us probably will be willing to come along to help.

Slice

Altogether I thought it was a very well worth-it activity. The cordination and Garda supervision was particularly poor around the Westmoreland St / D'Olier St area not helped by the fact that I wasn't too sure where to go at one stage from being unfamiliar with the map. I thought it was here that more direction was need but the event was fun nonetheless. Frustratingly some of the participants including the two people I attended with didn't seem to 'get' the idea about sticking together as a group and so dissapointingly it meant a load of people strayed ahead which defeated the whole purpose.

beans

Robfitz, commendable attitude to go into such an event with, puts me to shame for just cycling around observing problems last year without doing anything about them. If everyone who was savvy enough about all things bike were to do likewise then I'm sure the day would be a safe success.

daymobrew

beans wrote:

Robfitz, commendable attitude to go into such an event with, puts me to shame for just cycling around observing problems last year without doing anything about them. If everyone who was savvy enough about all things bike were to do likewise then I'm sure the day would be a safe success.

+1 from me.
I didn't go because I felt it would be a painfully slow ride. If I'd known that they'd need the assistance of experienced cyclists I'd definitely have gone. If nothing else it would have acted as a positive PR for the cyclist community to the younger and less experienced that were the intended audience.

Maybe they should go around the Phoenix Park - certainly looks better and has a few closed (or easily closed) roads.