3/6 hand

AmarilloFats

a 3bet hand OOP taken from 2+2. interested in hearing about general play and river decision..


""SB in this hand is pretty bad, calling 3-bets somewhat loose but playing ver straightforwardly post flop after I 3-bet. He folds to continuation bets too often in these pots, so 3-betting and getting called by SB is so money.

UTG+1 is a LAG/TAG with stats of 27.5/17.5/2 over about 30 hands. In general I've seen some fancy play syndrome from him in at least a couple big pots he has been involved in. Hard to say if this is a pattern after only 50 hands, but he doesn't seem like a strong player so far.

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $3/$6
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $908.95
UTG+1: $572.00
CO: $497.20
Button: $273.00
SB: $741.10
Hero: $582.00

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with Jh Kh
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $20, 2 folds, SB calls, Hero raises to $84, UTG+1 calls, SB folds.

Flop: 7c Jc 7h ($188, 2 players)
Hero bets $120, UTG+1 raises all-in $482, Hero !!

bops

it's all horrible imo

your getting ~ 2/1 but the only hand i can see you beating is AcKc

The push is a bit wierd - the only other thing i can think of is that he has AA...

it's all yuk!

jimmii

Yeh I don't like it at all. This is why folding KJ pre-flop is good it only gets you into nasty positions. Did they call and get 2h 3h on turn and river and the OP show 33.

Even if they have been making some fancy play syndrome i'd prefer to wait for a better spot than this.

Ace2007

i am totally lost on to why to raised to $84 pre flop with KJ hearts....

AmarilloFats

Preflop is fine and standard imo. A tag open raises utg+1(wideish range) ; bad sb calls so a raise(pot = $49) here will show immediate profit and you really don't mind a call from the sb as he is bad and oop..

it's also good to do this to widen your 3bet range .....

some claim they don't like to do this with hands like KJ cause they may be dominated and prefer 67s 94o type hands...

but the flop!! -

phantom_lord

he's got 99, call!

cardshark202

I would fold, i would be slightly more inclined to call if the boards wasn't paired though he may well be slightly more inclined to make a move because it is paired!

opr

phantom_lord wrote:

he's got 99, call!

They are not mental at 3/6

Opr

Gholimoli

AmarilloFats wrote:

Preflop is fine and standard imo. A tag open raises utg+1(wideish range) ; bad sb calls so a raise(pot = $49) here will show immediate profit and you really don't mind a call from the sb as he is bad and oop..

it's also good to do this to widen your 3bet range .....

some claim they don't like to do this with hands like KJ cause they may be dominated and prefer 67s 94o type hands...

but the flop!! -

i dont really want to open up my 3bet range from the blinds.
play from the blinds should be tight and associated with that is a tight range so i dont see anything bad with having a narrow 3bet range from blinds.

this is an easy fold IMO.

opr

Gholimoli wrote:

i dont really want to open up my 3bet range from the blinds.
play from the blinds should be tight and associated with that is a tight range so i dont see anything bad with having a narrow 3bet range from blinds.

this is an easy fold IMO.

Its not a bad thing but do you not think because the perceived wisdom is that we should be tight from the blinds that on occasion it can be a great place to open up your 3bet range as it looks so strong ?

Edit : I am not 3 betting here so i have a larger 3-bet range from the blinds as Gholi says i think your range should be tight its purely because given this the raise should look very strong and i think its a decent spot to pick given the action so far.

Opr

Gholimoli

opr wrote:

Its not a bad thing but do you not think because the perceived wisdom is that we should be tight from the blinds that on occasion it can be a great place to open up your 3bet range as it looks so strong ?

Edit : I am not 3 betting here so i have a larger 3-bet range from the blinds as Gholi says i think your range should be tight its purely because given this the raise should look very strong and i think its a decent spot to pick given the action so far.

Opr

if you have solid info that initial raiser can fold a decent range here then perhaps but otherwise not.
given the read here UTG+1 could make fancy plays etc then chances are he will not fold that often.
again im not saying you dont have a valid point just saying that i dont really like it in this spot that much.

Hectorjelly

easy call, 3 bet is obviously fine (depending on image and so on), if you dont know why then this is not the thread to find out in

cardshark202

lol how is this an easy call? This is an easier fold than it is a call.

Hectorjelly

we have the best hand a lot of the time, when we don't we have outs

cardshark202

I think we rarely have the best hand and when we don't we have to hope he has QQ.

fuzzbox

I agree with sharky.

Hectorjelly

Hes 27/15, not 19/15. His calling range is probably quite big, that coupled with the fact that there is another player in the hand means he isnt that likely to have a big pair. I wouldn't rule it out, but its not very likely. Sucks if he has Aj but there are a tonne of hands which he could have that we beat. I really doubt he is pushing all in with JJ or a 7.

Where is the 2+2 thread? Id be surprised if many people advocated a fold

Importantly we only have to call 372, into a pot already containing 400. getting slightly better than 2:1 here you cant even consider passing.

Ste05

If he's leading the flop, he can never fold to a raise. It's a call as played IMO.

cardshark202

Aces and kings

Gholimoli

i disagree with pretty much everything HJ said in this thread.
i dont think 2:1 is enough to make this a call at all.
what do you think he puts you on and still makes the move?
i think AJ is the min he has there but QQ+ is much more likely.
to say that we have the best hand here alot of times is totally wrong IMO.

Ste05

Gholi, you really need to 3-Bet/ Squeeze more if you only see QQ+ here... If the only hands that you'll have in that spot is QQ+, it's probably a problem. This is 3/6 and considering what 1/2 is like nowadays, 3/6 will be even more aggressive. The games are super aggressive nowadays. I could have a mountain of hands there and therefore so could the Villain.

Hectorjelly

the hand ranges are much wider than they used to be in these spots, and we have taken a line which allows him to push in with a wide range. The games are so aggresive, and players who play those stats are paticularly aggro. You should rarely fold top pair in a reraised pot against an aggro player, and this is certainly not the time for it.

I had a look for the thread on 2+2, not many replies but not one posted advocated folding

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=11332169&an=0&page=2#Post11332169

Hectorjelly

Gholimoli wrote:

i disagree with pretty much everything HJ said in this thread.
i dont think 2:1 is enough to make this a call at all.
what do you think he puts you on and still makes the move?
i think AJ is the min he has there but QQ+ is much more likely.
to say that we have the best hand here alot of times is totally wrong IMO.

If the games played as tight as you make out then yeah obv fold, but they dont. I have seen hands like this and the villain turns over an underpair to the entire board.

cardshark202

Ok i see they all want to call, but it really depends on the feel of the table and everytime I read over the post I'm thinking easy fold

AmarilloFats

HJ and most posters in original thread advocate the bet/call line.

Which means they think KJ on a Jc7c7h flop versus a 27/17 range in this spot has at least 2:1 equity in the pot.


If i put my self in villains shoes for a sec...In this spot if I get all in my range would be
heavily weighted towards - AcKc QQ KK AA JJ..and rarely, tilt depending, 99 TT AcQc

No pokerstove in work but against this range KJ is crushed - much worse than 2:1 dog..

In the original post indicated that villain would show up here with QJ JT or bluff......

I would fold this against an "average" villain!!
IS my range well off ??
btw - I think preflop is fine...

Van Dice

As played, this is easy call. You can't fold there ever. Even against a tight range you are getting odds to call + if you fold this spot then you are going to lose most 3-bet pots you play, and opponents can call ATC pf and shove any flop.

Your calling range is a function of your 3-betting/c-betting range. If your 3-betting range includes KJs in this spot then on this flop you have the nuts. Generally, if your 3-betting range has KJs as it's worst preflop hand, and you bet and fold on this flop when you don't have JJ+, you are folding just under 75% of your hands. So your opponent can literally play with ATC and make a profit.
Obviously it's different for different 3-bettors ranges, but if you 3-bet KJ then you cannot fold on this flop.