Car Issue

bookiebasher

Hope this is the right forum...Bought a car off reputable dealer..04 car with 6000 miles...Daewoo lacetti...
Driving into athlone yesterday and timing belt snaps with 56000 on the clock...engine is gone...
Just wondering where i stand here as garage cant help me until 9.00am tomorrow..The head salesman has told me off record that mileage was low for this to happen but he doest have the final say on this..(rang him this morning at his house)

mikemac

bookiebasher wrote:

Hope this is the right forum...Bought a car off reputable dealer..04 car with 6000 miles...Daewoo lacetti...
Driving into athlone yesterday and timing belt snaps with 56000 on the clock...engine is gone...
/QUOTE]

It's the wrong forum but someone will move it.

Your 04 car has 6,000 miles (seems very low) but the timing belt has 56,000 on the clock.

I'm confused. Is you car clocked or something?

bookiebasher

sorry for confusion..i bought the car with 6000 miles on the clock..it was only 9 months old...when belt went yesterday car had 56000 on clock...the only reason i mentioned buying it with 6000 on clock was im not sure of warranty on 2nd hand cars..timing belt should not have to be changed im told between 60000 and 65000.

Squall

So youve put 50000 miles on the car since you bought it? Seeing that its a 04thats under 3 years. Thats a fair bit of driving in such a short period of time.... could be why the belt went sooner than expected.

EKRIUQ

Most warranties won't cover more than 10,000 miles, if you after putting 50,000 miles on the clock since you got it why at your last service wasn't it noticed???

I'd guess your out of luck

bookiebasher

real sickener to buy a decent car and have to replace the engine after only 56000 miles..

Carrigart Exile

bookiebasher wrote:

real sickener to buy a decent car and have to replace the engine after only 56000 miles..

That happened to me and ever since every second hand car I've bought has got a new timing belt

cast_iron

bookiebasher wrote:

real sickener to buy a decent car and have to replace the engine after only 56000 miles..

Em, it's a Daewoo.

bookiebasher

in this day and age a car with 56000 miles should not have problems no matter what make...its not like its a lada??

biko

Get a Toyota instead.

Bluetonic

A few things.

You have the car over two years and your going back to the garage with the issue? :rolleyes:

Did you not get the timing chain checked on last service? When was this?

Who told you the engine was 'gone'?

bookiebasher

i am on here to see where i stand...guy that services the car told me last nite that a timing belt does not need to be changed until between 60000 and 65000.Car was serviced on time since i got it.
Im not one to cry so if its not covered by warranty then fine...just someone told me that it should not have gone after 56000

tommycahir

unfortunately i have a feeling that the garage will say that that as mentioned above the warranty was for 12 months or 10,000 miles which ever comes first.

I personally make a point of changing the timing belt every 45-50 k miles. As I put up over 33k miles per year on a 1.4 petrol i think that it is best to get the belt changed sooner than recommended as I am putting the car under more than average mileage.

colm_mcm

Car would be sold with manufacturers 3 year warranty from date of registration. It's not the garage's problem now I'm afraid.

Esel

bookiebasher wrote:

...guy that services the car told me last nite that a timing belt does not need to be changed until between 60000 and 65000....

If your mechanic was talking about any timing belt, he was well wrong. Different cars have different intervals. It's always better to change early, as you have found out.

It may be the case that your engine is not 'gone'. Some engines are 'non-interference', which means that timing belt failure does not cause engine damage. Check this aspect out for your car.

Also, afaik, the damage (if there) will usually be confined to pistons and valves etc. so you probably won't need a complete replacement engine. Might be cheaper to get a s/h one from a breakers though. If doing this, be sure your mechanic gives it the OK first.

patrickc

theres always give or take with timing belts,, depends on the driving also.. i personally change them 5k below recommended mileage

rebel.ranter

If the manufacturer says that 60k to 65k miles is the interval for the timing belt then you may have a case. You'll have to have proof of that though that the interval is 60-65k. In additon I think Daewoo come with a 4 year manufacturuer warranty too.
EDIT: Just checked it's only 3 years

Seth Brundle

When on 2004 was the car registered?
When did you buy the car and did that garage just use the manufacturers warranty or was a dealer engine and gearbox warranty given & if so was it in writing?

Darven

okay, i couldnt even read to end of all the replies, think bluetonic touched on what i was thinking. my golf had timing belt done at 54k. the engine is gone? what? you replace timing belt and water pump and away you go. its labour intensive but the belt might cost you 30 or 40 quid.

also saying a belt shouldnt go is like saying you shouldnt have to refill window washers but once a month. its essential maintenance, same as clutch or gear box to certain extent.

gyppo

OP,

If my reading on this is correct, your timing belt went before the manufacturers specified replacement interval. Have you a service history that can be verified and confirmed?
If so, then I'd be onto the irish distributors of this car, and see what they have to say...

bookiebasher

ok here is the latest..rang garage today and was told that belt needed to be changed at 48000 which is fair enough..my mechanics fault...but this has me fuming..im at home with no car and my place of work is 40 miles away and im due in at 1pm..i asked garage could they fix the car at my cost and give me another car to get me around while fixing mine and i was told no that they dont want anything to do with the car and to feck off.that they were under pressure with a 2 week backlog.brilliant after sales service..

MR DAZ

You cant really blame them ... if you haven't been getting your car serviced there...and it is nearly a year since you bought it from them right?

Why not go back to your mechanic and get him to fix it?

bookiebasher

hold on im not blaming them for timing belt but after shelling out 14000 euros 2 years ago im sick to the teeth with their after sales treatment.I would have paid to get it fixed but no feck off and stop annoying me was what i got on the phone....

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

bookiebasher wrote:

hold on im not blaming them for timing belt but after shelling out 14000 euros 2 years ago im sick to the teeth with their after sales treatment.I would have paid to get it fixed but no feck off and stop annoying me was what i got on the phone....

well i suspect that the boys in the dealers aren't thick and coped that you were looking to blame them and get them to replace the engine...when that didn't work you asked them to do the work at cost....
is their something your not telling us... like does you dad own the dealership, because you seem to be expecting quite a lot from them, they owe you nothing, the car is two years old, you never went back to them for a service you got your own guy, but now you expect them to drop everything an fix your car...forget about their regular customer who buy and return for the service.

i would have said the same.... nobody wants or needs customer like that. sorry.

OKenora

IMHO You have no recourse here against anyone except yourself. As owner of the car you are supposed to know when it needs servicing, it's all in the manual.

If it needed a belt at 48k it should have got one.

JHMEG

You need to check this stuff out:
a) What duration is the manufacturer's warranty?
b) From the date of purchase, is the car still under warranty?
c) What is the timing belt interval? You need to find this out from the manual.

TychoCaine

There's two things at play here, warranty and product quality. Your warranty is up, so you have no claim there. In your case the timing belt is designed to last 60000 miles, but the dealers are instructed to check the timing belt as part of every service in case it's wearing faster than normal. Wear time depends as much on the type of driving done as on actual milage covered, so the 60K is only a guideline.

If the timing belt snaps before 60k, and a Daewoo approved mechanic checked it at the previous service and did not tell you to change it early, then you have a claim. I have heard of this happening on Ford cars, and in each case Ford have covered the cost of the new engine.

In your case the services were carried out by mechanics other than manufacturer certified ones, so who's to say they checked the belt at all? If you can't prove that manufacturer specified checks designed to prevent this were carried out, then you're on your own.

lafors

esel wrote:

If your mechanic was talking about any timing belt, he was well wrong. Different cars have different intervals. It's always better to change early, as you have found out.

It may be the case that your engine is not 'gone'. Some engines are 'non-interference', which means that timing belt failure does not cause engine damage. Check this aspect out for your car.

Also, afaik, the damage (if there) will usually be confined to pistons and valves etc. so you probably won't need a complete replacement engine. Might be cheaper to get a s/h one from a breakers though. If doing this, be sure your mechanic gives it the OK first.

esel, afaik when the timing belt goes is how your engine will fare. It the belt goes while your doing a decent speed on the motorway (for example) then yes your engine will probably be mince meat. If it goes at a low speed, then maybe it'll only have minor damage. Many variables

Same thing happen to my dad's passat about a month ago, engine was wrecked, I went to the garage to see the damage after it was removed, amazing the damage that was done. He was doing 120 on the M50 when it happened.

bookiebasher

quite a few people are missing my point here..

1.I am not expecting garage to do repairs for free..i would have paid to get it done
2..someone said i wasnt a customer of them as i got the car serviced elsewhere..HELLO i purchased the car from this garage..i would have thought that they would have fixed it at my expense and given my a car to get to work while it was being repaired.
3..i posted here yesterday just to find out where i stood as regards the belt snapping after 56000 miles..i never stated as a poster wrote earlier that i wanted work carried out for free..

OKenora

Quite a lot of people seem to be posting without reading

THE TIMING BELT INTERVAL IS 48K

It broke at 56k (wasn't changed at 48k), nobody to blame, no warranty will cover it.

TychoCaine

If you have an interference engine then the inlet or exhaust valves will still be open, and in the way, when the pistons comes up when the belt snaps. The valves will be snapped off and driven into the cylinder head. It means new valves, cylinder head and pistons. Lafors is wrong when he says that slow driving has an effect. The cylinders are hammering up and down @ 12 times a second even at idle, so engine or wheel speed is irrelevant.

Non-interference engines are ones where the valves don't drop low enough in the cylinder to be hit by the piston at any time. When a timing belt goes in one of those the car just comes to a spluttering halt on the side of the road. The worst damage you'll get is a messed up catalytic converter from unspent fuel going into the exhaust system, and that's rare.

The valves and cylinder head are easily replaceable, but the pistons are attached to the crank shaft at the bottom of the engine. Getting at it means removing the engine and almost total disassembly, which gets stupidly expensive at garage rates. It is almost always cheaper to replace the entire thing with a 2nd hand/recon engine. In most cases even a new engine is still cheaper than repairing the original.

The thing is that the Lacetti isn't the most common car on the roads, and the oldest is only 3 years old, so you're not going to have an easy time finding one in a scrap yard.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

i would have a word with your mechanic, as it was on his advice you didn't change the timing belt, i would persuade him not to chard labour if replacing with a new engine.... he will hardly pay for the new engine, but he could waver the labour costs.

anything that will help with the cost.

Gregor Samsa

bookiebasher wrote:

2..someone said i wasnt a customer of them as i got the car serviced elsewhere..HELLO i purchased the car from this garage..i would have thought that they would have fixed it at my expense and given my a car to get to work while it was being repaired.

But why do you expect them to drop everything for you and repair it immediately if they're booked up for two weeks?

Noelie

bookiebasher wrote:

quite a few people are missing my point here..


2..someone said i wasnt a customer of them as i got the car serviced elsewhere..HELLO i purchased the car from this garage..i would have thought that they would have fixed it at my expense and given my a car to get to work while it was being repaired.

Well they told you that they had a two week back log so you would need a loaner for at least that length of time, I can't see any garage wanting to give you a car that long.

TychoCaine

An update on the 2nd hand engine option. It uses the same engines as the old shape Opel Astra, so you could have options there....

lafors

TychoCaine wrote:

If you have an interference engine then the inlet or exhaust valves will still be open, and in the way, when the pistons comes up when the belt snaps. The valves will be snapped off and driven into the cylinder head. It means new valves, cylinder head and pistons. Lafors is wrong when he says that slow driving has an effect. The cylinders are hammering up and down @ 12 times a second even at idle, so engine or wheel speed is irrelevant.

Non-interference engines are ones where the valves don't drop low enough in the cylinder to be hit by the piston at any time. When a timing belt goes in one of those the car just comes to a spluttering halt on the side of the road. The worst damage you'll get is a messed up catalytic converter from unspent fuel going into the exhaust system, and that's rare.

You're right But surely if you are at a higher rpm (not speed, as I mistakenly said) then the piston would be moving faster and would cause greater damage, hitting the valve at a faster speed?
Maybe I'm answering my own question but does each cycle give the same amount of rotational force, and the reason for speeding up is the greater amount of cycles per second?
Or, I'm losing the plot here , that wouldn't be right either, as the fuel mix entering the cylinder is dependant on the thottle valve?

I'm no mechanic as you can see

Sorry OP for going off topic

TychoCaine

The inertia is greater at higher RPM, but idle speed is fast enough to do enough damage to the heads and cylinders to require replacement.

The valves don't meter the volume of air/fuel mix. That job is done by the fuel injection system (or carburettors in older cars), which is outside the engine. Valves are opened and closed for a set duration at a specific point in the cycle to allow fuel/air in or exhaust gasses out of the cylinder.

lafors

TychoCaine wrote:

The inertia is greater at higher RPM, but idle speed is fast enough to do enough damage to the heads and cylinders to require replacement.

The valves don't meter the volume of air/fuel mix. That job is done by the fuel injection system (or carburettors in older cars), which is outside the engine. Valves are opened and closed for a set duration at a specific point in the cycle to allow fuel/air in or exhaust gasses out of the cylinder.

Cool thanks

OKenora

But surely if you are at a higher rpm (not speed, as I mistakenly said) then the piston would be moving faster and would cause greater damage, hitting the valve at a faster speed?

You are semi right, if it goes at high RPM the impact will be greater and the damage more. Unfortunately it does not help at all as a break at idle has enough force to bend the valves badly and an impact at high revs will simply bend them even more badly, though it may also increase the chances of crankshaft damage as well but this usually won't show for a few thousand miles after you get your head fixed and does not always happen.

JHMEG

OKenora wrote:

THE TIMING BELT INTERVAL IS 48K

Did you read this in the actual owners' manual?

I seem to have missed where this came from. The garage told the op two different figures of 60-ish and 48k.

JHMEG

TychoCaine wrote:

dealers are instructed to check the timing belt as part of every service in case it's wearing faster than normal.

Mechanics do not check the timing belt as part of a regular service as it's not visible.

TychoCaine

This is a tick sheet that Volvo dealers use when servicing their cars:
http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/s80/s80_service.pdf
The Diesel S80s have a "check/adjust" detail for the timing belt every 20k miles. I don't think you can expect a non-dealer garage to have the maintenance schedules and procedures for every manufacturer.

The timing belt is not visible until you take off the plastic cover. Once you undo the couple of clips it's perfectly visible. You'll need a torch, but it is possible (and necessary) to inspect it during the service.

JHMEG

Is it the same for a Daewoo petrol? It's not for the far eastern makes -- belts cannot be easily inspected, and do not require adjustment between renewals.

TychoCaine

I don't know about Asian cars. I've always found them too bland, so I've only owned Fords and Volvos. Each has had timing belt checks as part of dealer services, especially when they went over 50k miles. My last Focus was supposed to get 110K out of a timing belt, but was changed @ 90K on the recommendation of the dealer when serviced after they checked it and found a crack, so dealers are checking them.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

JHMEG wrote:

Did you read this in the actual owners' manual?

I seem to have missed where this came from. The garage told the op two different figures of 60-ish and 48k.

i don't think he brought the car back to the dealer for servicing, he got his own mechanic to carry out the regular servicing, and it was he that said around 60k, it was only when the belt broke that the op contacted the dealer who informed him that the change should have been done at 40k.... or something like that.


op please correct if I'm picking this up wrong