Irish Language in serious trouble

Cork

Minister for Community, Rural & Gaeltacht Affairs, Éamon Ó Cuív, has said that the leaking of the linguistic study on the state of the Irish language in the Gaeltacht was wrong.

Excerpts of the report were published in the newspaper, Foinse, last weekend.

Minister Ó Cuív said it should not have been leaked and that leaking it was not in the interest of the Irish language.

AdvertisementHe was speaking at the McGill summer school in Donegal.

The minister said there was nothing in the report about the state of the language that was not already known from census figures, but that recommendations in the study are to be discussed with the Government.

He gave no date for the publishing of the report

What needs to be done?

I find it hard to get an opportunity to use the language.

My local authority don't advertise that services are available in Irish.

I wrote 2 weeks ago looking for information to my local authority in Irish and I am still awaiting a reply. (My letter was 2 lines).

They is little opportunity for people to learn or use Irish.

I will again do the conversational course in UCC in September, I hated the language at school but have gone back to it.

If the course was not available - I would simply not have bothered.

luckat

I tried a few times going to the cafes in Dublin where people supposedly speak Irish. My order in Irish was greeted either by a nervous giggle and a request for it in English, or with over-enthusiasm.

You're quite right - it is normally an experience that behaviouralists would describe as 'negative reinforcement' to speak Irish. And after a brief period of trendiness in the 1990s, it's become unfashionable again.

One of the things we need is good entertainment in Irish. TG4 is great - but we need animators making funny, sharp stories in Irish - the kind of stuff that Oliver Postgate's Smallfilms used to make in English back in the 1960s, or that Ghibli Studios made in Japan in the 1950s to today.

We need Irish to be fun for the young. Not what civil servants think of as fun, but actually a basis for sharp, intelligent, funny comment. The rebels need to take Irish back.

Cork

I saw an article recently giving out about people sticking english phrases into the language.

I see nothing wrong with this.

Local Authorities are not promoting services are available in Irish.

The fact that you can't use the language is a turn-off.

To me - I am begining to like the language.

I find chat shows like the late late alien.

I much prefer to watch TG4. That said - my knowledge of Irish is not great.

dranoel

I'm delighted the report was leaked. Ó Cuív is just trying to cover up how bad things are rather than tackling the problem.

Míshásta

"I find it hard to get an opportunity to use the language."

Nach bhfuil deis agat anseo. Canathaobh go bhfuilir ag gearán i mBéarla mar sin.

"What needs to be done?"

Téir i dteangmháil leis an eagraíocht seo.

http://chetwyndedowns.blogspot.com/2006/12/eagraocht-ghaeilge-nua.html

luckat

Bhuel, labhair faoi rud éigin atá spéisiúil liom, a Mhíshásta!

GaryOR

luckat wrote:

Bhuel, labhair faoi rud éigin atá spéisiúil liom, a Mhíshásta!

Tosaigh rud eicínt atá spéisiúil leatsa, cén fáth go mbeadh tú ag brath ar Mhíshásta????

daphil

Cork wrote:

What needs to be done?

I find it hard to get an opportunity to use the language.



I will again do the conversational course in UCC in September, I hated the language at school but have gone back to it.

If the course was not available - I would simply not have bothered.

Bíos féin ar an gcursa sin le dha bhlian anuas agus tá se go maith. An fhaibh atá i gCorcaigh, ná easpa áite le teacht le céile do dhaoine. Ni dóigh liom go mbeidh Árus na Díghe ag ath-oscailt. Má tá fonn ar éinne rud éigin a eagrú thabhairfinn lamh cúnta doibh.
Slán tamaill
dave

Rosita

Cork wrote:

I saw an article recently giving out about people sticking english phrases into the language.

I see nothing wrong with this.

There's nothing wrong with inserting English phrases into Irish conversation in the same way that French or Latin or even Irish phrases are used in English. For example in Corca Dhuibhne they would say "mo bhicycle" rather than "mo rothar" etc.

However, people need to be honest and not simply use English because they could be bothered learning relatively routine Irish words. I think that is probably what annoys people.

Rosita

dranoel wrote:

I'm delighted the report was leaked. Ó Cuív is just trying to cover up how bad things are rather than tackling the problem.

Ó Cuív isn't trying to cover up how bad things are. He simply said that there was nothing in the report that wasn't already apparent from the census and condemned the leaking of the report which seems reasonable to me. That's hardly the same as trying to cover up how bad things are.

Nevyn

Well why not create the place and time to have such convertaions.

Most librarys offer space and you do see ads for converstaion groups why not start an irish one.

flogen

luckat wrote:

You're quite right - it is normally an experience that behaviouralists would describe as 'negative reinforcement' to speak Irish. And after a brief period of trendiness in the 1990s, it's become unfashionable again.

I don't think that's true at all - I think Irish has continued to rise in popularity over the last decade or so.

The Government has been gifted with a natural move by the general public towards Gaelscoileanna (no, they're not in the majority but they're popularity has exploded in recent years) and they're just ignoring it.

I know of one school (Gaelscoil Bharra) in Cabra (Bertie's constituency) that has been teaching out of prefabs in the grounds of a GAA club for years - it only got funding for a dedicated building before the election. There's another school in Finglas that's using a room in an old dancehall (those familiar with Finglas might know it - the WFTA or WEFTA hall near where the Sunday markets are held).

How the Government can allow any children to be taught in these conditions is appalling - the fact that their families have put them there just so they can speak their own language makes it even more disgraceful that the Government is doing nothing. Maybe Mary Hanafin has bought into the concept of Gaelscoileanna being the preserve of the rich - maybe she should visit either of these Gaelscoileanna or many more like them and learn something.

What upsets me the most, however, is the fact that when these kids make their way out into the real world in years to come, with superb Irish, they'll struggle to find places to practice it.

In general terms I think the Government should realise that the Gaeltacht aren't the sole defenders of the language. They should also realise that it's not a matter of forcing people to use Irish, it's a matter of giving them the opportunity to use Irish if they choose*.

It's clear to me that they don't know what they're doing, or couldn't be bothered trying. I read their programme for a bilingual Ireland (or whatever it was called) and it was the most vague, wishy-washy piece of crap I've ever approached in my life. Completely aspirational without a single policy or new idea in it.

I've spoken here before about the possibility of small grants or tax cuts for shops and companies that dual sign and employ at least one fluent Irish speaker (who have passed a very strict test to prove their fluency). A tiny tax cut could go a long way for companies and it would mean that people could come in and do their business in Irish if they wanted to, without being treated like a tourist. You could give a similar cut or credit to the people who speak Irish fluently to encourage them to take the test.

Of course that's completely pointless if the Government can't offer all its services in both languages too - the fact that that's even in question is a disgrace in itself.

But let's face it; the greatest success story of the Irish language in recent years has been the Gaelscoil, and they've been successful because of the passion of staff and the pure interest of parents - the Government had nothing to do with it.

For that reason I don't expect our Government to do anything to improve the standing of Irish; if anything I expect them to do their best, by accident or otherwise, to destroy it more and more.

In other words, we shouldn't wait for the Government to do something to save Irish - they've been given an 80 year-long chance and have failed miserably. The only people that can save Irish are the people; it has to be from the ground up and I feel that there is more respect and interest for Irish now than ever, so there's no time like the present.

(* To add to that, I don't support the call to make Irish a choice subject in the JC or LC - I just think the curriculum needs a complete overhaul and it needs to be taught as a language, not a maths subject).

luckat

Agree with virtually everything you say, flogen.

As for shops with notices - I used to chat in the Potigear near South King Street, but then they started employing non-Irish-speakers, who were embarrassed, and I just stopped. In Siopa Linn in Harold's Cross they gape at you if you try to talk Irish. In the cobblers up near Superquinn there's a guy with good Irish, but his politics, er, wouldn't be mine.

It's not my lifetime's avocation to speak Irish. I'll happily speak to people in Irish if they'll speak to me. In fact, I'll be delighted.

But I don't want to be corrected, thanks very much, and I don't want any other unpleasantness.

For most people, speaking Irish is not a 'positively reinforcing' experience. It's a chance to get a slap from someone who regards speaking the language as a competitive activity, or an exclusive activity.

flogen

luckat wrote:

For most people, speaking Irish is not a 'positively reinforcing' experience. It's a chance to get a slap from someone who regards speaking the language as a competitive activity, or an exclusive activity.

I'm not an Irish speaker (Yet!) but despite this I know what you mean.

My Irish teacher in the Leaving Cert was from a Gaeltacht area and was a very elitist person in this regard. She would make the distinction between a born and bred Irish speaker (what she'd call a native speaker) and a born and bred Irish person who spoke Irish (what she'd call a fluent speaker). Now such distinctions, in my mind, are completely counter-productive.

The whole idea of distinguishing between someone who was raised with the language and someone who learned the language is bemusing to me - what's important is they both speak Irish fluently. At a time when Irish needs all the help it can get, I fail to see how this helps anything.

As my English teacher (a Dublin man who learned Irish) pointed out to me, though, the chances are his Irish is actually better than hers because she was raised with the slang while he wasn't - of course he was far to sensible a man to actually make any distinction despite this.

Then there's the fact that "native" speakers learn the language because it's there, while "fluent" speakers actually learn it because they want to... but anyway.

Another rant, but the attitude always stuck in my claw. The whole idea that there are different types of Irish speaker, who are segregated not on their fluency level but on the way they learned language is just complete snobbery.

(by the by, while I was apathetic towards Irish in school and probably wouldn't have learned it anyway, her methods were terrible - she thought it like something you needed to memorise. My sister on the other hand had a teacher in her school who thought it as a language and never used English in class - she came out of 2nd level fluent).

gaeilgegrinds

'It is not for the difference between 'tá' and 'is' that the Gaelic League was formed.' And it is neither of those words that make a language what is it,a part of someone's culture & heritage.I correct others when asked to do so, otherwise I don't. I wouldn't correct their English so what gives me the right to correct their Irish. Níl aon duine anseo foirfe ach má taimid go leor ag imirt don foireann céanna cén difríocht a dhéanann focail nó dhó?!

Cork

Friday July 20 2007


A Government-commissioned study this week highlighted a decline in the use of Irish in Gaeltacht areas.


However, seasoned GAA followers were already aware of the impending gloom, as evidenced by the way our mother tongue is treated in GAA commentary circles.

While TG4's presenters cannot be faulted, their co-commentators often lack the vocabulary to give an insight "as Gaeilge" and resort to a bastardised version of the language.

On one radio station's Irish language programme last week, the 'Failgóir' previewing last Sunday's Leinster final continuously lapsed into a hybrid Gael-glish, which included phrases such as "Tá Laois na minnows", "Sell-out is ea é" and "Níl Baile Átha Cliath home agus dry".

Considering one of the GAA's fundamental aims is to promote the use of the Irish language through its games, tá an situation seo an embarrassing ar fad.

What is wrong at "Níl Baile Átha Cliath home agus dry"?

When I was in primary school - my spelling was crap. I was told I was crap at Irish. I did ok with it in secondary school. I've just gone back to it a few years ago.

But It is better that people overcome the fear factor with the language. What TG4 are doing is brillant. Hopefully they'll ignore the purists and the po-faced.


I took the above quote from http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/t-an-usage-of-our-mother-tongue-an-embarrassing-ar-fad-1040438.html

Rosita

Cork wrote:

What is wrong at "Níl Baile Átha Cliath home agus dry"?

But It is better that people overcome the fear factor with the language. What TG4 are doing is brillant. Hopefully they'll ignore the purists and the po-faced.

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Nothing seriously wrong with "home and dry" but at the end of the day the broadcast is supposed to be in Irish. If you have English idioms in every third sentence what's the point? Borrowed words are used in all languages but you wouldn't expect to hear it numerous times in a single broadcast.

And depsite the "po-faced" stuff it's a legitimate criticism. This kind of stuff critically weakens a language when the idiom of another language is used and the Irish used is merely the grammatical constructs that are learnt in school. I understand that people learning a language like to be encouraged but those who learn Irish get very precious about any intervention which might be actually designed to help them speak the language better.

A little bit of variety in the commentaries would be good too. Pat Fleury must say "go deo" forty times per game.