Christianity and the military. A conflict?

JimiTime

Just curious to know what the Christian consensus is on military duty? Is there a Christian justification for serving in the armed forces. Personally i don't think there is, for if you loved your enemy, you wouldn't kill him. Also, it was only when Catholocism was founded that we had 'militant christianity'. Does this go against Christian teaching? Is there such thing as a just war to Christ? Even stopping Hitler, was it against Christian teaching? Love to hear Christian opinion.

philologos

I wouldn't enlist anyway.

JimiTime

Is that on the basis that 'you' don't agree with it? or is it because you believe its not Christian?

philologos

both. I don't agree with it and it's not Christian.

MooseJam

Jakkass wrote:

both. I don't agree with it and it's not Christian.

What about fighting evil such as Hitler

philologos

think about the lives you have to take on the way to fighting that evil? is there an easier / better way to deal with it.

JimiTime

Jakkass wrote:

think about the lives you have to take on the way to fighting that evil? is there an easier / better way to deal with it.

Its usually the Hitler example thats raised in such a conversation. usually a rhetorical question 'Well, wat if you knew if you shot such and such, you would save 10 innocent people'. I must admit, that usually gets me. However, based on Christs teaching, we must love our enemy and also turn the other cheek. So I would agree with you 100% that it is not Christian, and that there is no 'Just War' in Christs eyes. He never gave any exceptions. The fact that he exemplified this meekness when going to his own torturous death shows this also. Of course Peter, probably feeling like most would, lobbed the soldiers ear off, but again jesus led by example and healed him.

Any Christians out there who would contend with this view?

JC 2K3

I remember my 3rd year religion teacher telling us that it was only right to kill another man in a just war.....

philologos

So... we would have to submit to occupation if that occurred JimiTime. I find it interesting that Islam allows wars of self defence. However there is nothing like that listed in Christianity (not that I know of anyway).

Fallen Seraph

Lets not forget that there are no atheists in foxholes. Someone's gotta take up the slack.

PDN

I think of myself as a pacifist, but there are some things that are so evil that I wonder if violence is the only way.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer began as a Christian pastor and pacifist who opposed the Nazis and called for resistance by the Christian church to Hitler's treatment of the Jews. He was banned by the Gestapo from preaching and eventually from teaching and all public speaking. He was arrested for funding the escape of Jews to Switzerland, and later implicated in the July 1944 plot to assassinate Hitler, for which he was executed. Bonhoeffer finally came to the conclusion that he must choose the lesser of two evils. He reportedly declared, "I believe it is worse to be evil than to do evil."

Martin Luther King once said, "If your opponent has a conscience, then follow Ghandi and non-violence. But if your enemy has no conscience, like Hitler, then follow Bonhoeffer."

jonny72

Fallen Seraph wrote:

Lets not forget that there are no atheists in foxholes. Someone's gotta take up the slack.

huh?

JimiTime

PDN wrote:

I think of myself as a pacifist, but there are some things that are so evil that I wonder if violence is the only way.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer began as a Christian pastor and pacifist who opposed the Nazis and called for resistance by the Christian church to Hitler's treatment of the Jews. He was banned by the Gestapo from preaching and eventually from teaching and all public speaking. He was arrested for funding the escape of Jews to Switzerland, and later implicated in the July 1944 plot to assassinate Hitler, for which he was executed. Bonhoeffer finally came to the conclusion that he must choose the lesser of two evils. He reportedly declared, "I believe it is worse to be evil than to do evil."

Martin Luther King once said, "If your opponent has a conscience, then follow Ghandi and non-violence. But if your enemy has no conscience, like Hitler, then follow Bonhoeffer."

I know what your saying. But the people you quoted were not Christ, so I think that says something. i think we suffer 'The Peter effect'. We in our short sightedness and lack of faith can get carried away by the anxieties of living in an ungodly world. At the end of the day, does Christ permit it?

Fallen Seraph

jonny72 wrote:

huh?

Apologies, it's quite OT. Just grinding an axe over the oft repeated american belief that atheists are just denying god "for the lulz" and whenever they're put in extreme situations (such as war) they immediately revert to belief in god. The extra theists have to spill over into some category.

JimiTime

Jakkass wrote:

So... we would have to submit to occupation if that occurred JimiTime.

Well, If that was the consequence of following Christs example, yes.

kelly1

Fallen Seraph wrote:

Lets not forget that there are no atheists in foxholes. Someone's gotta take up the slack.

Hello, FS, forgive by stupidity
but I've heards that phrase several times and I can' figure out what it means. Is it something similar to "there are no atheists in an airplane that's about to crash"?

God bless,
Noel.

Ciaran500

kelly1 wrote:

Hello, FS, forgive by stupidity
but I've heards that phrase several times and I can' figure out what it means. Is it something similar to "there are no atheists in an airplane that's about to crash"?

God bless,
Noel.

Yep, he explained it above Whenever an atheist is under serious threat they always turn to god.


Apparently ¬_¬

robindch

Ciaran500 wrote:

Whenever an atheist is under serious threat they always turn to god.

Well, one could equally wonder whether christians visit priests or doctors when they're sick.

Actually, the common religious line that non-religious will only develop belief when under fire, doesn't suggest to me that reason plays much of a part in choosing to believe in god. And the no-atheists-in-foxholes line is complete tosh too. There are many atheists in the US army, and it seems that it's ok to discriminate against them:

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=25659

And here's a list of atheists who's been in foxholes and remained atheists:

http://maaf.info/expaif.html

Juza1973

History of Christianity has been made by people in the military among the others. And Joseph the Baptist baptised Soldiers. I don't perceive Christianity as absolute pacifism, although very next to it.

PDN

robindch wrote:

Well, one could equally wonder whether christians visit priests or doctors when they're sick.

The only difference, of course, being that Christians don't claim to disbelieve in doctors.

Húrin

Yes, there is a conflict. Christians should love their fellow man, love peace, and of course, not kill people. But most importantly, our loyalty should be reserved for the Kingdom of God, not worldly states.