Toe and Heel

RobAMerc

Does no one use toe and heel to stop at lights on hills ?

The standard maneuver now seems to be - wait for green, wait, wait, engage first, drop handbreak then slowly, slowly - go. (real driving test stuff).

I notice no-one seems to use it slowing down either - are we loosing these arts - I used always think that blip on the throttle was the standard sound a car made slowing down.

fletch

I don't....my car has enough torque that I can lift the clutch to the biting point with the brake engaged and then just lift off the brake completely and start moving. (Although I don't do it very often at risk of cooking my clutch)

peasant

You don't need toe and heel to take off reasonably quickly at the lights ...all you need to be is awake

Gerry

On a hill, I'd only engage gear when the lights are about to go green. No point in cooking your clutch. You don't need heel and toe, you just let off the brake, and get to the accelerator before the car slips backwards.
Changing down while slowing down, I do use heel and toe. This is because I don't want to wear the clutch, and I don't want to stress the gearbox. ( Its also smoother ) I think the reason this is a lost art is because modern cars don't complain as much when you don't match the revs to the gear and speed. Its like they expect to be driven badly

rowanh

why exactly would you use heal and tow pulling off at lights? I started using it it downchanging a while ago for fun as much as anything but i dont get why you would use it at lights?

RobAMerc

I hold the car on the foot brake and then accelerate away using my heel, stops it rolling backwards.

Saves using the handbrake not that its hard to use
Just habit I guess.

Fey!

Sounds pointless. Touch the accelerator until you feel a slight pull, drop the handbrake, and accelerate away.

Alun

Fey! wrote:

Sounds pointless. Touch the accelerator until you feel a slight pull, drop the handbrake, and accelerate away.

I agree .. why make it more difficult than it has to be, plus it's easier to use the handbrake when you have to stop for any length of time.

cpoh1

Ive only ever used heel to toe braking on track coming up to sharp bends etc. to match the revs. Pointless doing it taking off at lights etc.

wingnut

RobAMerc wrote:

are we loosing these arts .

What arts? its safer, more sensible and can be just as quick to use the handbrake.

ninty9er

I do it. especially on hills. I'm not too worried about cooking the clutch as mine is probably due to be done anyway. It's actually "much safer" to get f*%$ing moving as soon as the lights go green that get rear ended by someone who is actually alert and ready to move.
I think everyone I've been behind at lights in recent times has taken the opportunity to go for a snooze if the lights are red and wait for the inevitible horn coming from the traffic behind!! I pass most people coming the opposite direction before they've even engaged 1st!! You have to do this if you don't wan to get stuck at the next 5 sets of lights. Limerick City centre is a disaster lights wise!!!

milltown

There seems to be some confusion here as to why/when to use heel and toe. It's patently unnecessary at traffic lights, regardless of the gradient. Nothing wrong with having the car in gear with the handbrake on at a red light. When the light goes green let the clutch out until the back of the car begins to squat, then let off the handbrake and away you go. Simple.

As cpoh said, heel and toe gearchanges are only necessary on the track (or when driving like a loon on the road) to maintain the balance of the car approaching a bend, right heel on the brake and blip the throttle with the right toe(s) just before you let the clutch out to match the rpms on the input and output side of the gearbox. In reality, most of the cars on the roads probably wouldn't have the throttle response to make it quicker, more worthwhile or safer than an ordinary smooth downchange.

Blipping the throttle when changing down is a dying "art" because maybe 40 years ago or more it was necessary for a smooth change. With the advent of synchromesh gearboxes there is just no need anymore.

The only time I had any need to do it was driving from Moate back to Dublin one night in a Citroen AX with a broken clutch cable.

Autoboxes FTW btw.

_Kaiser_

milltown wrote:

Autoboxes FTW btw.

Beat me to it!

JHMEG

milltown wrote:

In reality, most of the cars on the roads probably wouldn't have the throttle response to make it quicker, more worthwhile or safer than an ordinary smooth downchange.

In addition there is too much of an offset between brake and accelerator pedals in most ordinary cars to make it even possible. Unless you've some sort of prosthesis.

Esel

RobAMerc wrote:

I hold the car on the foot brake and then accelerate away using my heel, stops it rolling backwards.

Don't you mean 'toe'?

ninty9er

milltown wrote:

There seems to be some confusion here as to why/when to use heel and toe. It's patently unnecessary at traffic lights, regardless of the gradient. Nothing wrong with having the car in gear with the handbrake on at a red light. When the light goes green let the clutch out until the back of the car begins to squat, then let off the handbrake and away you go. Simple.

As cpoh said, heel and toe gearchanges are only necessary on the track (or when driving like a loon on the road) to maintain the balance of the car approaching a bend, right heel on the brake and blip the throttle with the right toe(s) just before you let the clutch out to match the rpms on the input and output side of the gearbox. In reality, most of the cars on the roads probably wouldn't have the throttle response to make it quicker, more worthwhile or safer than an ordinary smooth downchange.

Blipping the throttle when changing down is a dying "art" because maybe 40 years ago or more it was necessary for a smooth change. With the advent of synchromesh gearboxes there is just no need anymore.

The only time I had any need to do it was driving from Moate back to Dublin one night in a Citroen AX with a broken clutch cable.

Autoboxes FTW btw.

It seems I don't do it so!!!

And yes autoboxes FTW...drove one today but won't be buying since it wasa a heap. 04 and the speedo didn't move til I was doing 60!!

Mr.Diagnostic

Just to confuse the issue slightly. Does anyone left foot brake?

JHMEG

Mr.Diagnostic wrote:

Just to confuse the issue slightly. Does anyone left foot brake?

My sister did when driving my auto. And gave us all whiplash, several times. Only cos she didn't know what else to do with here left loot.

I suggested she throw her left leg across the centre console to try to improve the situation, but she wouldn't listen.

unkel

JHMEG wrote:

My sister did when driving my auto. And gave us all whiplash, several times. Only cos she didn't know what else to do with here left loot.

I suggested she throw her left leg across the centre console to try to improve the situation, but she wouldn't listen.

LOL

My father in law did the same in his first auto. Quite unnerving really

But not quite the left foot braking Mr. Diagnostic was referring to methinks

squibs

Ok - can somebody explain this to me please? I understand how the technique could be used at lights, but the racing thing? I'm lost. I watched the video and the guy was holding down the brake and "blip"ing the throttle when donwchanging gears. I don't understand what the blip does for him?

SoBe

milltown wrote:

Autoboxes FTW btw.

or a manual subaru either god im gona miss that brakeing system

Esel

squibs wrote:

Ok - can somebody explain this to me please? I understand how the technique could be used at lights, but the racing thing? I'm lost. I watched the video and the guy was holding down the brake and "blip"ing the throttle when donwchanging gears. I don't understand what the blip does for him?

Keeps the revs up so the power is right there when the clutch bites.

BTW, left foot braking in auto is great as long as you don't think it's a clutch and apply severe pressure! That's where the whiplash comes from. Main newbie problem in autos is the foot slipping from the brake to the accelerator with disastrous consequences. Much less likely with left foot braking. You must remember to always lift your right foot off the accelerator too! LFB is not recommended in autos, but imo it works well and gives quicker reaction times as long as you know what you're doing.

nastysimon

squibs wrote:

Ok - can somebody explain this to me please? I understand how the technique could be used at lights, but the racing thing? I'm lost. I watched the video and the guy was holding down the brake and "blip"ing the throttle when donwchanging gears. I don't understand what the blip does for him?

By matching the engine speed to the selected gear for the speed that the car is doing, the engine does not act like a brake while changing down gears. This means that it does not unbalance the car as much as it would otherwise do. In a rear-wheel-drive car, the engine can act like a handbrake and may cause the car to lock the rear wheels, in a front-wheel-drive car it will act to increase the braking force on the front wheels, which may cause it to lock-up (especially if the car is already braking hard).
This is particularly likely to happen when you are using the upper end of the rev range as racing drivers seem to like to do.
It is not just useful for racing drivers, but also for smooth driving on ordinary roads. If you use it under braking, it allows you to be in the right gear for the moment you finish braking, allowing for a smoother transition and more gentle braking. It is not necessary for safety.