Sean Sherk...

Tim_Murphy

disappointing:

http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=4359&zoneid=2

Tim_Murphy

...and Franca :rolleyes:

http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=4358&zoneid=13

Kazooie

Wow. I thought Sherk was one of the most honest and hardworking guys in the sport. He does look freakishly ripped though.

Dragan

Sherk will appeal, and likely be proved innocent.

He only came in at 12ng/ml , thats twice what the state allows. For a dude like Sherk he would have a naturally massive test level anyway. Add in a lot of recent studies into exactly how **** piss tests are for accurate detection of Nandrolone ( high protein diets, creatine and a HIIT combo all help to lead to false positives. ) and i feel he has a case. His levels are low enough for a false positive to be reasonable at this time so i won't judge him until the appeal.

The same could have been said for Royce, but he came in at 50ng/ml , which is hard to explain away as a false positive due to those levels.

septern

The sheer numbers of people failling drugs tests lately at the top end of the game, is really shocking!!!!!!!!

It really reflects badly on the sport as a whole.

The UFC and other major orgs have got to start doing their own out of competition testing as well

cowzerp

Personally i think sherk was always going to get caught for steroid use, the legendary training people talk about coupled with his shape and making the weight all seems strange to me-and substance use is well known in wrestling circles also-with all this training you would expect him out of action a lot through injury or overtraining etc..if he's only barely over maybe he was just using it better than royce? or could have been an older cycle..

cavedave

This is not particularly related to this case

I saw this interesting article on why it might be a bad idea to treat sports stars to completely different rules then the general population when it comes to drugs
Why are pro sports bosses so skittish about marijuana?

I want to say that using steroids is cheating. And probably a very bad idea. It is just the idea of holding one group of people (sports people) to completely different standards then others does not strike me as fair.
Performance Enhanced Theorems

cavedave

cavedave wrote:

This is not particularly related to this case

I saw this interesting article on why it might be a bad idea to treat sports stars to completely different rules then the general population when it comes to drugs
Why are pro sports bosses so skittish about marijuana?

I want to say that using steroids is cheating. And probably a very bad idea. It is just the idea of holding one group of people (sports people) to completely different standards then others does not strike me as fair.
Performance Enhanced Theorems

I disagree. Sports stars have the opportunity to win world titles and make a lot of money from winning. Thus taking the shortcut and taking steroids is cheating other athletes who choose to stay clean out of the titles and money they deserve. Hardly seems fair to allow that cos a different set of rules apply to the average joe bodybuilder??? That would basically mean that unless you're taking roids you are highly unlikely to win and as a result you either dont compete, compete and lose, or risk your long term health to keep up......now THAT harldy seems fair does it?

Now the average joe who takes roids to enhance his physique, he doesnt stand to do this. Unless he goes into bodybuilding, which in itself is a joke for the steroids, it doesnt affect other peoples chances of making money and winning hard earned titles. His only sacrifice is his health and wellbeing in the long run.

johnathan woss

Dragan wrote:

Sherk will appeal, and likely be proved innocent.

He only came in at 12ng/ml , thats twice what the state allows.

Yea but the allowed levels are actually very high. The laws are lenient.
To have twice the allowed levels is significant.

hardCopy

The amount of drug failures in MMA recently has been pretty shocking, even though a lot of them were due to recreational drugs rather than performance-enhancing Link. I think they need to bring in out-of-competition testing and implement a WADA style testing policy, up until UFC 72 there was no testing at all for events held outside of regulated states, eg. UK, Texas and others.

The other big issue now is the state of the UFC's lightweight division, the curse of Jens Pulver strikes again.

Valmont

I had no idea that nandrolone occured naturally in the body, can anyone shed any more light on the subject?

cavedave

I think i might have been unclear. If you implicitly allow drug use in a sport you do get to the point where nearly everyone has to take it in order to have a "level playing field". There is some evidence that cycling has reached that state.

Take one drug: Ritalin. And look at who takes it and the consequences to them of doing so.

Kids: 3 million American kids are prescribed it

Reason: What do you think the consequences of prescribing Ritalin for all of these kids will be?

Szasz: We may not know all of the medical consequences for another 20 or 30 years. In social terms, it gives the impression to people that behavioral problems are medical and should be handled with drugs; it imposes a certain stigma on the child, possibly on the family. It medicalizes educational and child- rearing problems, and it may cause biological problems in the person taking the drug. I don't know if the average person on Main Street realizes that if a 30-year-old man has a pocketful of Ritalin, he can go to jail for years. This is called "speed." And this is what they give as a treatment to schoolchildren when there's absolutely no laboratory or medical evidence that they are sick.

Students, take it to improve exam performance

Mathematicians take it and are lauded as geniuses

Drug fiends. As said above if you get caught with this drug on the street you can be put in jail.

Combat Pilots. Its use has been linked to a number of killing your own men (friendly fire) incidents

Sports Players. Baseball has especially been linked to its use.

Here is a drug that is widely used for performance enhancing reasons. In some cases if you are found with it you are publicly shamed (druggy or sports star) in others you are rewarded for it helping you get more done (mathematician or student). It is not a simple issue, imagine how you would feel if you had to take a drug to do your job? I think that you cannot separate drug use in sport from their wider use in society.

cavedave

cavedave wrote:

I think i might have been unclear. If you implicitly allow drug use in a sport you do get to the point where nearly everyone has to take it in order to have a "level playing field". There is some evidence that cycling has reached that state.

Take one drug: Ritalin. And look at who takes it and the consequences to them of doing so.

Kids: 3 million American kids are prescribed it


Students, take it to improve exam performance

Mathematicians take it and are lauded as geniuses

Drug fiends. As said above if you get caught with this drug on the street you can be put in jail.

Combat Pilots. Its use has been linked to a number of killing your own men (friendly fire) incidents

Sports Players. Baseball has especially been linked to its use.

Here is a drug that is widely used for performance enhancing reasons. In some cases if you are found with it you are publicly shamed (druggy or sports star) in others you are rewarded for it helping you get more done (mathematician or student). It is not a simple issue, imagine how you would feel if you had to take a drug to do your job? I think that you cannot separate drug use in sport from their wider use in society.

This is short sighted dont u think? Start testing mathematicians?


Think about it. Theyre not endorsing the use of performance enhancers, theyre just not putting barriers up to discourage it. That doesnt mean we should just allow it free reign in mma. That would be giving up any chance we have of having this sport taken seriously in the mainstream.

cavedave

Thus taking the shortcut and taking steroids is cheating other athletes who choose to stay clean out of the titles and money they deserve.

This is short sighted dont u think? Start testing mathematicians?

So it is wrong if I get on a baseball team ahead of you because i took Ritalin but it is ok if i get a job as a maths lecturer ahead of you because I took Ritalin?*

*edit i think i misinterpreted this statement about testing mathematicians. Drug tests on the general population do not work for statistical reasons. Also the idea of living in a society where everyone is tested all the time to make sure they are not taking anything that might make them smarter is a nightmarish dystopia, pretty much anticipated by Vonneguts handicapper general http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html.

cavedave

cavedave wrote:

So it is wrong if I get on a baseball team ahead of you because i took Ritalin but it is ok if i get a job as a maths lecturer ahead of you because I took Ritalin?*

*edit i think i misinterpreted this statement about testing mathematicians. Drug tests on the general population do not work for statistical reasons. Also the idea of living in a society where everyone is tested all the time to make sure they are not taking anything that might make them smarter is a nightmarish dystopia, pretty much anticipated by Vonneguts handicapper general http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html.

it is wrong. 2 wrongs dont make a right. Its wrong that maths teachers get the better jobs for taking it.


By your logic we should allow mma to become like wwe where its fine to juice and then face the media ****storm when they all start dyin early?? No thanks.

Imagine 2 guys murder 2 different girls. 1 gets caught the other doesnt. Should we just release the guy who got caught cos its not fair on him that he's in jail and the other guy isnt???? i dont see how you are arguing this.

cavedave

Imagine 2 guys murder 2 different girls. 1 gets caught the other doesnt. Should we just release the guy who got caught cos its not fair on him that he's in jail and the other guy isnt???? i dont see how you are arguing this.

I do not see how someone could either. But the current system with drug use in sport is oddly unfair. It is fine for a mathematician to take a drug but bad for a sports man. How would you feel if the law was changed to the "mathematicians can get away with murder".

Speaking of murderers if you want to get rid of the hyporisy of certain drug use be ok then let half of them out because of the genetic PCR based evidence used to convict them. Mullis was off his head on LSD when he came up with PCR. If you really did stop the usage of performance enhancing drugs you would now have alot more criminals out and about.

By your logic we should allow mma to become like wwe where its fine to juice and then face the media ****storm when they all start dyin early?? No thanks.

That would be giving up any chance we have of having this sport taken seriously in the mainstream.

Both of these are about what is best for mma as a sport. What is best for mma is not really a moral issue. If they decide to change it into a tickling contest that is their own business.

cavedave

cavedave wrote:

I do not see how someone could either. But the current system with drug use in sport is oddly unfair. It is fine for a mathematician to take a drug but bad for a sports man. How would you feel if the law was changed to the "mathematicians can get away with murder".

Speaking of murderers if you want to get rid of the hyporisy of certain drug use be ok then let half of them out because of the genetic PCR based evidence used to convict them. Mullis was off his head on LSD when he came up with PCR. If you really did stop the usage of performance enhancing drugs you would now have alot more criminals out and about.



Both of these are about what is best for mma as a sport. What is best for mma is not really a moral issue. If they decide to change it into a tickling contest that is their own business.

Tell me where exactly I said it was fine for mathematicians to do it??? I could care less about mathematicians, I care about MMA and thats what we're talking about here. MMAcan only regulate itself, not mathematicians, so I dont even know why u brought that up. Were u beaten to a job by a druggie mathematician cos u seem to care more about mathematicians than debating if the powers that be in MMA are doing enough to deter drug use........

cavedave

Tell me where exactly I said it was fine for mathematicians to do it???

you did not. But if you only chase after one group who does something there is an implication that the rest can keep going.

I could care less about mathematicians,

Mathematicians was an example of another class that uses performance enhancing drugs, You can choose students, pilots,scientists as previously explained or artists, truck drivers and loads of others. The argument is not about mathematicians it is about having different rules for different sets of people.

I care about MMA and thats what we're talking about here.

On an martial arts board that is completely legitimate. However I was talking about the wider use of performance enhancing drugs in society and mma as an example of this.

cavedave

cavedave wrote:

Mathematicians was an example of another class that uses performance enhancing drugs, You can choose students, pilots,scientists as previously explained or artists, truck drivers and loads of others. The argument is not about mathematicians it is about having different rules for different sets of people.

Fighters and sports people more generally are taking part in a zero sum competitive situation, whereas the examples you mentioned are not.

cavedave

Fighters and sports people more generally are taking part in a zero sum competitive situation, whereas the examples you mentioned are not.

You do not get much more zero sum then combat pilot. The guy running your pension might be on Ritalin as well, or maybe not and that could be why you don't get to retire when you want to.

dlofnep

There are those of you who are going to believe that Sherk used steroids regardless of what he says or what happens with his appeals. This is not to you. I write this to those of you who will actually weigh the evidence and keep an open mind. I am a close teammate of Sherk and have never known him to use anything illegal. And after hearing his response to his positive drug test, I sincerely believe it to be a false positive.

Sherk trains harder than anyone I have ever met. He takes an ungodly amount of supplements and maintains a rigorous diet in order to train the way he does. The fact is, Sherk's level of nandralone was very low. Sherk tested at a 12. An athlete who uses nandralone should test between 40 and 80. So the only way Sherk could have used steroids and tested at 12 is if he was coming off of a cycle. In order to be coming off of a cycle, he would have had to of taken the steroids around the time he was having surgery on his shoulder – a time when he was not lifting or exercising whatsoever. Now you tell me what sense does it make that an athlete who lives a very strict lifestyle and has passed numerous drug tests in the past would go on a cycle at a time when he couldn't even exercise?

Moreover, increased exercise increases your nandralone levels naturally. And seeing how Sherk trains harder than anyone I have ever met, it makes sense that his levels would naturally be higher. On top of that, supplements can sometimes give false positives. Again, the fact that Sherk takes so many supplements is conducive to the idea that this is a false positive.

Sherk is appealing the drug test. I believe subsequent drug tests and testing of his supplements will prove that Sherk did not cheat. Sherk is someone who has dedicated his life to mma and has done it cleanly. I feel terrible for him that his reputation has been smeared through no wrong doing of his own. I ask that you consider all the facts and reserve judgment until that time.

Nick Thompson

After looking over everything, I think this is a case where Sherk may be a false positive.

dunkamania

He makes a strong case assuming his facts are accurate.