Flopping a set 400bbs deep

Flushdraw

I've been at the table about 2 hours and i've rebought in twice for the $200 max after losing a flopped straight to a rivered flush and another buyin to a bluff gone wrong. I've a LAG table image and i'm getting action with my hands. MP in the hand is very LAP. Calling a lot of raises and folding if he misses. The button is a good scandie player. I've seen him make moves when any weakness is shown and he is prone to trapping or just taking control of a pot. He's built most of his tank without showing down cards. He took me off a pot about 15 mins prior where i made a play with nothing and he raised me.

UTG opens to 10, 3 callers i make it 60 in the CO with 66

Button calls as does player in MP

Flop is A 6 4 rainbow

MP leads out 100, i flat call, button makes it 250, MP pushes for 350, action on me?

I have 600 behind and button has 800

valor

take ages and call

Rb

Call and either lead turn or crai, eithers fine by me.

Flushdraw

I'm not really sure what hand i put either of them on at this moment. MP has played his hand like 44 so i'm leading towards that. The button could have AA worst case scenario. He could have Ax or just be making a play with any hand and got caught. I thought for ages and flat called as did the button.

Turn was a 2

Whats the best way to play the turn?

valor

check, call a shove, shove over a small bet. if it checks thru shove any river

BuChan

in i have the maths right once the mp guy shoved the pot hit 880 right? you have 600 behind so i don't see why you would just flat call since the button now knows you're never going to fold and won't bet the turn unless he has a straight draw and hits. i think you should have moved in after the mp guy shoved. as played i'd probably check call a shove on the turn or shove the river if scandie checks behind on the turn. that sickly little 2 hit a straight for the 53 sooted, he didn't have that did he?

cardshark202

check-call or shove any river. pushing turn is good too.

CaptainNemo

I would call on the flop. We have to figure we are ahead of MP so the objective now is to try to trap the button into putting more money in the flop. If he has AA we're going broke so let's not worry about that.

After the button flat calls on the flop it's harder to put him on a hand. The nasty little 53 suited is a definite possibility given the action. However, we can't fold now given the amount of money in the pot and the fact that the button's range also includes a strong ace, A6, 64, or possibly 75 suited.

I don't think checking the turn is right after the button has flat called on the flop. If he had very little and wanted to try to take you off your hand he would probably have pushed on the flop so we have to figure he has some kind of hand that can draw out on you and we shouldn't give any more cheap cards. He probably won't bluff the turn if it's checked to him.

We could try to milk him by betting 300. I think it's probably better to shove.

carfax

CaptainNemo wrote:

The nasty little 53 suited is a definite possibility given the action.

How do you arrive at that? The action went from 4 players in for 10 to three players in for 60 (with three of the previous 4 folding). If he has called with 5-3 I would be very surprised and would do my dough.

The only hand I can see the button having that beats us is a dangerously slow played A-A and I'm losing my chips if that is the case because I don't fold middle set online.

CaptainNemo

carfax wrote:

CaptainNemo wrote:

The nasty little 53 suited is a definite possibility given the action.

How do you arrive at that? The action went from 4 players in for 10 to three players in for 60 (with three of the previous 4 folding). If he has called with 5-3 I would be very surprised and would do my dough.

The only hand I can see the button having that beats us is a dangerously slow played A-A and I'm losing my chips if that is the case because I don't fold middle set online.

I've seen people do worse. I suppose what I failed to state was that in my opinion the button would have to be a total donkey to get to that point in the hand with a 5-3!

BuChan

mistake in my last post on this thread, i think the pot is 1010 after mid position moves in. i didn't pay attention to the preflop 10 and limpers. it think the only hands the button can have here are 444, A6, A4, 64, 57s, 53s. i don't think he wouldn't make that smallish flop raise with just an A or air. i think the MP guy has AK, passive players don't usually raise small pairs in early position. (LAP meaning loose active passive, i'm guessing?) i still think moving in on the flop is ok since the button knows if you call 350 leaving 250 behind he's guaranteed to have to call that 250 too so makes the same decision as if you'd shoved no?

Flushdraw

CaptainNemo wrote:

I would call on the flop. We have to figure we are ahead of MP so the objective now is to try to trap the button into putting more money in the flop. If he has AA we're going broke so let's not worry about that.

This was my thinking in the hand. I figured i had MP well and truly beat so the real reason for my post is to see if we should let the button into the hand or just push the flop and be happy with whats already there. At the time, i was confused as what to do. Clock was called on me for the first time ever playing poker because normally i just push but felt i had a chance to get the rest of the buttons money.

CaptainNemo wrote:

I don't think checking the turn is right after the button has flat called on the flop. If he had very little and wanted to try to take you off your hand he would probably have pushed on the flop so we have to figure he has some kind of hand that can draw out on you and we shouldn't give any more cheap cards. He probably won't bluff the turn if it's checked to him.

I felt that if i lead the turn, i havent accomplished anything that a push on the flop wouldnt. The only difference it made was that i gave him an extra card to catch up. When i checked to him, i was hoping he would have a stab at the pot and i didnt expect him to be ahead. I really lacked the knowledge of how to play this hand and what the best line was to take on the flop/turn.

CaptainNemo wrote:

We could try to milk him by betting 300. I think it's probably better to shove.

I call a bet of 100 on the flop..MP bets 350 so when i call this i only have 350 behind.

As BuChan said early on, the button had 35 and hit his straight on the turn. I checked to him, he pushed allin and i called. No help on the river and he won a nice pot. I didnt post it as a bad beat story..if the button doesnt have 35 but has 444, A6, A4, 64, 57s as Eamonn says then was my check on the turn correct because he may push with these hands?

mormank

if he called pre flop for 60 with 3 5, what flop is he lookin for?/ so to be honest he sounds like he may have seen the turn with 3 5 here no matter what action u took on the flop?? Am i wrong??

carfax

Flushdraw wrote:

As BuChan said early on, the button had 35 and hit his straight on the turn. I checked to him, he pushed allin and i called. No help on the river and he won a nice pot. I didnt post it as a bad beat story..if the button doesnt have 35 but has 444, A6, A4, 64, 57s as Eamonn says then was my check on the turn correct because he may push with these hands?

Very unlucky mate but it was a complete Fish play for him to make as it could easily get re-popped before the flop never mind the fact that he called for 60 with 3-5.......The only argument for his play is that you can never put him on the hand but its once in a blue moon that he gets paid off and you still had plenty of outs when he went ahead.

You definitely played the hand really well irregardless of the result.

BuChan

mormank wrote:

if he called pre flop for 60 with 3 5, what flop is he lookin for?/ so to be honest he sounds like he may have seen the turn with 3 5 here no matter what action u took on the flop?? Am i wrong??

the question isn't whether or not he should have pushed to make him fold a draw or not, of course tony wants him to call with the draw. the question was should he check the turn after flat calling the flop. i don't think it really mattered one way or another how it was played once MP guy pushes. the pot was huge and the button's range after he makes that small flop raise was always strong enough to call a push for another 450 to win 1610. sklansky says slowplaying is less important in big pots and i think it was kind of pointless here but a lot of other people say to call so i could be wrong.

as for saying this guy is a fish for playing the 53, i don't mind it. he's playing over 500bb deep with some other similar stacks getting nearly 3 to 1 on the preflop call if the original raiser comes along or one of the few limpers who called 10. he has position and a hand with big implied odds. his flop raise is pretty bad though. unless he thinks it'll buy him a free river card or something.