straight flush draw on flop

luckylucky

E.g.
Cash game
Say you have about 100 BB.
Your hand is 7c6c, Board is Qh5c4c.

My normal line of thinking is just try to get all the chips in the middle as even against a set im only a 42% dog. Recently on two occassions I've been in this kinda spot and I got all-in and called on flop both times, 1 win and 1 loss.

Seems like if you get your chips in the middle on the flop, you avoid headaches.

Is there ever a case for avoiding getting all-in with this sort of hand?

5starpool

If there are multiple opponents in the hand then your flush draw (apart from the 1 out straight flush) is likely in trouble. Heads up I am usually happy enough to play this hand very strongly.

Van Dice

No. End thread.
Actually, try to manouever betting so that you're pushing all-in rather than calling. Though calling all-in obv isn't a bad result. Now end thread.

Ibjiba

I agree, staying strong and getting the hand is better than betting too much in this case. It might still be too obvious to your opponents as well.

mdwexford

it all depends, what 5starpool says is right, except for you have 2 straight flush outs obviously

CaptainNemo

Paul Wasicka folded an open-ended straight flush draw on the flop when it was 3-handed and Jamie Gold and the other guy were both all-in, even though he had the other guy outchipped and therefore would have got 2nd place money even if Gold eliminated them both in that hand. The only scenario that would have killed him is if the other guy won the hand but Gold's hand beat Wasicka's.

As it happens Gold was on a far worse draw which he hit on the turn but Wasicka would have made his flush on the river IIRC. He out-thought himself on this hand I believe, and was never going to get a better chance to put himself in contention with Gold.

So I guess my answer is that with this hand I will always be looking for ways to get all my chips, and the maximum amount of everyone else's, into the pot before the river.

Brayruit

My instinct is to agree that a push is best, but as I think about it I am less sure.

A big enough bet (EDIT: say ~= pot) will shut off most of the same hands that a push will get rid of. If a big bet is called, then you can reassess after the turn on the basis that you are now more likely to have been up against trips or 2 pairs and are now potentially a 30% dog (or 5% if the house may have been hit).

I know that means that you are potentially giving yourself a headache - but sometimes you have to play poker?

mdwexford

Brayruit wrote:

My instinct is to agree that a push is best, but as I think about it I am less sure.

A big enough bet (say 5-10BB) will shut off most of the same hands that a push will get rid of. If a big bet is called, then you can reassess after the turn on the basis that you are now more likely to have been up against trips or 2 pairs and are now potentially a 30% dog (or 5% if the house may have been hit).

I know that means that you are potentially giving yourself a headache - but sometimes you have to play poker?

a big enough bet in regards to what?? how much is in the pot??

depending on stack sizes and number of players in the hand i usually prefer a check raise unless i think i will get raised and can 3 bet

Brayruit

mdwexford wrote:

a big enough bet in regards to what?? how much is in the pot??

depending on stack sizes and number of players in the hand i usually prefer a check raise unless i think i will get raised and can 3 bet

I was answering on the basis that the pot is relatively small as that was the scenario in my mind... sorry, should have specified...

Edit above post to say pot bet

Jesus Wept

Van Dice wrote:

No. End thread.
Actually, try to manouever betting so that you're pushing all-in rather than calling. Though calling all-in obv isn't a bad result. Now end thread.

:o:o

Firstly, you're wrong.

Secondly, stop saying end thread!! :o:o

cardshark202

It all depends really, sometimes calling is best.

luckylucky

Thanks for the replies, in the specific scenarios that I was involved in i had 2 opponents on 1 occasion and 1 opponent on the other,
i raised pushed all-in the first time against original raiser as I felt pretty strong that he just had a pair so I was confident I was favourite, the other player involved hit a set of 4s and called but I rivered him. I wouldn't change the way I played the hand on the flop, preflop is another story.

The second hand is the one that got me thinking maybe I could have avoided getting stacked. I had raised preflop with 76c and flop is Qh5c4C as mentioined, I decided to bet out, my lone opponent who seemed a reasonable player then puts in a moderate raise. I again decided not to fook around and just shoved, he called again with 44, i hit my flush but he redrew for house . I think in this heads-u casse a case could have been made for just calling his raise as there was a strong chance he had a set, then I could have reassesed on the turn.

I still don't think in a heads up situation there is a whole lot wrong with just getting the chips in the middle, but in this case maybe I could have slowed down, after all his raise gave me massive odds to catch up, and there's no way he's putting me on 76 suited after I had raised preflop so he doesn't realise the potential peril he's in.

valor

some situations when you dont want to get it all in on flop with such a draw

a) when your know what your opponent has, and know he will pay you off it you hit anyway, but will definitely call if you shove. in this situ you should just try and hit as cheaply as possible
b) if you think there is a higher flush draw out there, which wont fold. here you should just fold unless you are getting great pot odds
c) if you think your opponent is fos and you can cr on turn or shoveover his turn bet, you make more money this way from his bull**** hands

Bandara

CaptainNemo wrote:

Paul Wasicka folded an open-ended straight flush draw on the flop when it was 3-handed and Jamie Gold and the other guy were both all-in, even though he had the other guy outchipped and therefore would have got 2nd place money even if Gold eliminated them both in that hand. The only scenario that would have killed him is if the other guy won the hand but Gold's hand beat Wasicka's.

Nemo

Wasickas has talked about this hand a few times since in interviews etc. His thinking was that the prize difference between 2nd and 3rd was something like $2.2m so he was folding in the hope for Gold busting the other player as he knew if he missed his draws he was gone in 3rd place.

Not exactly the 'first place or nothing mentality' that the big tourney pros have but to be honest I can see where he's coming from. 2 million quid is a lot of dosh.

phantom_lord

yeah but 12m is a hella of a lot more. plus all the extra $$$ and intangible benefits that goes with the bracelet.

if I'd been there i'd have shoved it in so fast, the difference between 1st and 2nd is so vast i wouldn't have given a **** about coming third. anyway you'd expect your hand to have huge equity.

CelticPhantom

valor wrote:

c) if you think your opponent is fos and you can cr on turn or shoveover his turn bet, you make more money this way from his bull**** hands

Who is fos?

CaptainNemo

Hammertime wrote:

Nemo

Wasickas has talked about this hand a few times since in interviews etc. His thinking was that the prize difference between 2nd and 3rd was something like $2.2m so he was folding in the hope for Gold busting the other player as he knew if he missed his draws he was gone in 3rd place.

Not exactly the 'first place or nothing mentality' that the big tourney pros have but to be honest I can see where he's coming from. 2 million quid is a lot of dosh.

If Gold eliminated them both he would still have got 2nd place money. His only nightmare scenario is if the other player wins the whole main pot and Gold beats him for the side. I understand it was a legitimate concern but that's only 1 scenaio out of 3 likely ones (he wins, gold wins, other guy wins) and if he takes the entire pot down, or even the side pot against Gold, he is suddenly in real contention.

Yes, 2.2m is a lot of money and folding was the conservative play. I guess if he knows what hand Gold has then he calls it every time but he might have put him on a set in which the fold probably does make sense.

valor

full of ****