Apostlehip and Spiritual Gifts

kelly1

JimiTime wrote:

Noel, use your reason. What you are saying is that priests are apostles. That they have inherited apostleship from Jesus' day. Remember, that apostles healed the sick, gave sight to the blind etc. They were filled with spirit. In being filled with spirit, they could ressurect the dead, as both Jesus and Elijah had done. Apostleship was for those who were messangers of the Spirit. In fact Paul qualify's his apostleship by stating that he was an apostle based on the fact that he was not trained or selected by men (Galatians 1:11-12)

I'm not saying that the office of apostle is passed on to priests. Apostles were appointed by Christ and obviously this ended after His ascension. But the apostles did ordain bishops and as far as I know the main differences concern
the gift of miracles and personal infallibility. The remaining powers/authority were passed on to bishops.

God bless (yes, I mean it),
Noel.

PDN

JimiTime wrote:

are you reasoning that there are modern day apostles? If so, where?

All over the place. I see no biblical reason for claiming that apostleship was like a carton of milk with a sell-by-date. I know a guy in China who, in the space of 15 years, has established a network of house churches comprising 500,000 believers. I certainly see the characteristics of an apostle in him.

kelly1

PDN wrote:

All over the place. I see no biblical reason for claiming that apostleship was like a carton of milk with a sell-by-date. I know a guy in China who, in the space of 15 years, has established a network of house churches comprising 500,000 believers. I certainly see the characteristics of an apostle in him.

I'm not sure but isn't an apostle by definition appointed by Christ? Or does Matthias break that theory?

What I'm saying is that the bishops are the successors of the apostles.

BTW, Paul who was chosen by Christ was also ordained by Ananias.

God bless,
Noel.

JimiTime

PDN wrote:

All over the place. I see no biblical reason for claiming that apostleship was like a carton of milk with a sell-by-date. I know a guy in China who, in the space of 15 years, has established a network of house churches comprising 500,000 believers. I certainly see the characteristics of an apostle in him.

I'm not sure if you have your definition of Apostle correct. this indeed is a ministry of great proportion, and great news to hear. However, an Apostle had the gifts of the spirit, and was able to impart them to others by laying hands on them. So really this man is doing great work, but apostleship? Jury's out on that for me.

PDN

JimiTime wrote:

I'm not sure if you have your definition of Apostle correct. this indeed is a ministry of great proportion, and great news to hear. However, an Apostle had the gifts of the spirit, and was able to impart them to others by laying hands on them. So really this man is doing great work, but apostleship? Jury's out on that for me.

I have witnessed the gifts of the spirit being imparted through the laying on of hands on many occasions, and not just by apostles.

JimiTime

PDN wrote:

I have witnessed the gifts of the spirit being imparted through the laying on of hands on many occasions, and not just by apostles.

Like what?

PDN

JimiTime wrote:

Like what?

Gifts of prophecy, of healing, of speaking in tongues.

JimiTime

PDN wrote:

Gifts of prophecy, of healing, of speaking in tongues.

Ok, if I may be the sceptic here until I'm convinced.

Prophecy: Could you detail?

Healing: Was it a Christ-like healing? I.E. a blind man seeing there and then or a lame man walk, or a dumb man speak? Or was it, someones Cancer going into recession and finally given the all clear after a year?

Tongues: Was there someone with the gift to interpret the tongues? If so, what were they saying?

I must say, I'm very excited by such a prospect, but am sceptical until I have more answers.

philologos

JimiTime, a lot of what PDN is describing is in the documentary Jesus Camp. I'm skeptical of speaking in tongues. Prophecy I believe in, and I think it's possible someone could heal someone with faith.

Asiaprod

Jakkass wrote:

I'm skeptical of speaking in tongues. Prophecy I believe in, and I think it's possible someone could heal someone with faith.

Interesting topic. I spent 1 year going to a Charisma-tics group back in '83 which was when they were at their peak in Dublin. I enjoyed the people but was always confused with this idea of speaking in tongues. I could not see what purpose it served since nobody understood what anybody else was saying. The laying of hands to heal was also an integral part of there actions, never saw it work, does not mean it did not. I do believe that faith in something can be an aid to healing, even if it is just faith in oneself. I believe this aspect is best exemplified in the relationship between a patient and their doctor; a combination of trust and faith.

JimiTime

Jakkass wrote:

JimiTime, a lot of what PDN is describing is in the documentary Jesus Camp. I'm skeptical of speaking in tongues. Prophecy I believe in, and I think it's possible someone could heal someone with faith.

I'm only being sceptical of the claims. I don't think it can't happen. I've seen a bit on the tele about faith healing and speaking and tongues, and TBH it was a crock. I've never heard of any modern day Christian (unless we lump the likes of David Koresh in) prophesying though.

Now just to clarify, I'm not saying it can't happen, but what I've seen in my lifetime certainly does not merit the term spiritual Gifts. I'd love PDN to ellaborate. PDN where are you??:)

PDN

JimiTime wrote:

I'm only being sceptical of the claims. I don't think it can't happen. I've seen a bit on the tele about faith healing and speaking and tongues, and TBH it was a crock. I've never heard of any modern day Christian (unless we lump the likes of David Koresh in) prophesying though.

Now just to clarify, I'm not saying it can't happen, but what I've seen in my lifetime certainly does not merit the term spiritual Gifts. I'd love PDN to ellaborate. PDN where are you??:)

OK, a quick run through this. Firstly, my main reason for believing in spiritual gifts is biblical, not experiential. Nowhere in the New Testament do I see any teaching that they are only a passing phase for the first few years of the Church's life. Also, in the last 26 years, I have seen numerous events that confirm my view on this.

Prophecy. Much prophecy is 'forth-telling' rather than 'fore-telling'. For example, much of the prophesies of the Old Testament prophets were giving God's take on current events. Also, a lot of silly waffle passes for prophecy in Charismatic Christianity today. However, there are many instances of predictive prophecy that have come to pass. One of the most notable I experienced was in the Assemblies of God. I attended their annual conference in England about 1986, and remember someone sniggeringly pointing out a guy who had become a bit of a laughing stock a few years earlier. Apparently, at their conference in 1982, he had stood up and announced that God had told him the Berlin Wall would be removed in 7 years time. Since such an event appeared impossible at the time, and since a failed prophecy delivered in such a public manner could be damaging to the church's reputation, other ministers tended to shun the guy a bit after that. I am ashamed to admit that, as a young guy who thought I knew it all, shared in the sniggering. Needless to say he had the last laugh when the wall came down in 1989.

I have seen many healings (and have prayed for many more who were not healed). I myself was healed instantly in 1995 in Ghana West Africa through the laying on of hand in prayer. There was an outbreak of what the locals called "rice water cholera" and I got it through my stupidity in not sticking to bottled water. The transformation in my condition instantaneously after receiving prayer was amazing. The fever, vomiting & the craps stopped instantly. I know that any sceptic can claim this was a coincidence, but I've noticed that the more we pray the more such 'coincidences' happen.

Speaking in tongues is practiced by a large percentage of modern Christians. In fact the the growth of Pentecostal/Charismatic Christianity in the 20th Century (from a few hundred people in 1900 to hundreds of millions by 2000) is probably the fastest growth of a non-militaristic, non-political movement in human history. I could cite many examples of how this phenomenon can be beneficial for Christians. One case I witnessed was where a guy stood up in a service and spoke a message in tongues. We all waited for someone to give an interpretation, but none came. I was really annoyed because the Bible says tongues in public worship should always be interpreted. At the end of the service a young guy, his first time in a Pentecostal church, came forward to receive Christ. The meeting leader asked me to pray with him. He explained that he had come into the meeting out of curiosity and only intended to stay for 10 minutes, but had been stopped in his tracks when "that man began to tell everyone what I've been up to". I discovered that he had understood perfectly the message in tongues and it referred to him.

Another case where speaking in tongues was clearly beneficial was related to a good friend of mine who is a very well respected College Professor, one of the editors of 'Christianity Today', and a member of the Lausanne Committee on World Evangelization. He woke up one night at 2am with a very strong feeling that he needed to pray for his daughter (who was pregnant). He didn't know why, so he prayed in tongues for 3 hours, trusting that the Holy Spirit was praying through him. At 5am he felt that he had no need to keep praying so he went back to sleep. A couple of hours later he received a phone call to say that this daughter had been dangerously ill, had almost lost the baby, but her conditioned had stabilised at 5am.

Today I am much more involved in international ministry and, even here in Ireland, I spend most of my time among immigrants. I find that those from non-western backgrounds tend to have many more experiences of this kind of stuff than western Europeans.

JimiTime

PDN wrote:

Today I am much more involved in international ministry and, even here in Ireland, I spend most of my time among immigrants. I find that those from non-western backgrounds tend to have many more experiences of this kind of stuff than western Europeans.

Thanks for the elaboration PDN. Any idea on why the above point is the case? BTW, of which denomination are you a member? if you don't mind me asking.

PDN

JimiTime wrote:

Thanks for the elaboration PDN. Any idea on why the above point is the case? BTW, of which denomination are you a member? if you don't mind me asking.

I think it has to do with the fact that western culture has swallowed as a fundamental basis for belief the mantra of "I'll believe it when I see it." However, the biblical view is that faith frequently precedes what you see. More believing is seeing than seeing is believing! Many non-Western cultures are a lot closer to the biblical worldview and so have less difficulty in believing for miracles and answered prayer. My African friends, for example, frequently laugh at my western scepticism.

robindch

PDN wrote:

I think it has to do with the fact that western culture has swallowed as a fundamental basis for belief the mantra of "I'll believe it when I see it."

Given the tendency that many people have to take advantage of the gullible, this may not be a bad thing to swallow. Why wouldn't you agree?

PDN

robindch wrote:

Given the tendency that many people have to take advantage of the gullible, this may not be a bad thing to swallow. Why wouldn't you agree?

We all want to guard against being gullible, but it is easy to allow such caution to cause us to miss out on good things.

For example, I don't want to be conned by beggars who are really just lying & want to rip me off. But neither do I want to become so cynical that I would refuse to give to someone who genuinely needed my help. A balance is needed.

Similarly, we need to take steps to guard against gullibility, but sometimes faith can yield wonderful instances of answered prayer. Again, a balance is needed. We tend to feel that many in the two-thirds world are gullible and unbalanced. They see our cynicism and caution as equally unbalanced.

robindch

PDN wrote:

We tend to feel that many in the two-thirds world are gullible and unbalanced

Indeed. But one is still able to stand back and look at the administrative and legal systems that arise in the two societies where excessive gullibility and excessive caution exist. I can tell you which one I prefer living in

From B+W the other day:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6294666.stm

BrianCalgary

1 Corinthians 12
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

There are more gifts than just tongues, prophecy and healing. In the parable of the talents God tells us that if we use our talents we will gain more, if we bury them we will lose them

I took a spiritual gifts inventory abot 8 years ago and my top three were: faith, evangelism and teaching. I have used those gifts over the last 8 years and did an inventory this past spring.

God has added, pastoring, shepherding and apostleship into my mix.

So there is plenty of evidence of spiritual gifts and their usage around the world.

The above is only one list in the NT. There are others. One gift that I truly admire is wisdom, and I have been thankful for my friend who has that gift. He has been a real blessing over th eyears.