Frequent cash spots

Van Dice

3/6 games. I play on the LAG side, generally 28/23/4

No history with either of these guys.

1
Villain (23/18/4) is button with 660, I cover.

UTG limps, I make it 24 with AcQd in CO. Button makes it 75, and I call.
Flop is Ad Td 9c.
I check and he bets 135.


2
Villain here is 27/20/3 with 600, I cover.

I make it 21 in CO with ThTc, both blinds call.
Flop 8d 8h 4d
Checked to me, I bet 42 and BB CR to 189 (full pot)

BigCityBanker

1 is an easy fold, you gotta believe he is doing this with AJ or A8 or worse? Whats his continuation bet frequency like? Would he bet JJ - KK if you check to him in this spot?

im not so sure about 2

AmarilloFats

1. I don't think this is a certain fold.
I call here almost always. It's a rr pot you have TPGK. What's his rr range? Most players I play against 2/4party would Continuation bet this flop when they have rr ..
I would never call his rr preflop if I was gonna fold to a cont bet on this board...
If you call pot = 420 and he'll have 450 left.


2. I fold here against most - ie I need a specific read to call or 4 bet.

Ace2007

hand 1: I dont' think u can flat call the flop, cause if he fires again on the turn, what u do then?? I dont' really get why you didn't bet the flop, but now i'd reraise here, can he really call with AK if u reraise, probably not, have to be aware of AA, and because of that reason i would have bet the flop, if you had of bet 100 on the flop, you get an easy answer, as it stands u have no idea really where u stand. he could have KK and is doin a continuation bet.

hand 2: i think u gotta fold, CR gotta have an 8 imo.

BobSloane

I think I would bet the flop in hand 1 as he's going to continuation bet that flop with KK QQ JJ anyway and now you don't know where you are. I would prefer to bet 135 than call 135

Hand 2 could well be a check-raise with a flush draw so I probably call there too and see what he does on the turn.

I have issues when it comes to folding.

However I have never played a hand of 3/6 or 2/4 for that matter in my life and if i don't start folding hands occasionally I probably never will

valor

#1 is an *easy* call. then c/c shove on any turn pretty much

#2 is really awkward, i probably just fold now

BigCityBanker

valor wrote:

#1 is an *easy* call. then c/c shove on any turn pretty much

Why is this an *easy* call?

valor

utg limper, laggy co raises and laggy button re raises. everyones range is huge here. co calls which probably cuts down his range a good bit, but its still very wide. Ace flops, CO checks and button bets almsot all of huge range. note alot of players will bet JJ-KK here because they are stupid. he will also be betting his 56s, QJo, whatever 2 cards he decided to resteal with.

we have tp2k, raising is dumb, and we cant fold becaus we are miles ahead of his range, so we call..

phantom_lord

1. folding this would be really bad, his range is pretty big.

2. i'd fold.

Ace2007 wrote:

hand 1: I dont' think u can flat call the flop, cause if he fires again on the turn, what u do then?? I dont' really get why you didn't bet the flop, but now i'd reraise here, can he really call with AK if u reraise, probably not, have to be aware of AA, and because of that reason i would have bet the flop, if you had of bet 100 on the flop, you get an easy answer, as it stands u have no idea really where u stand. he could have KK and is doin a continuation bet.

that's why c/c >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting.

Ace2007

that's why c/c >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting. - what?? - still not up to date with all these TLA's

phantom - was it a good idea to check flop in ur opinion...

p.s - i would have quote ya but my wireless is very slow for some reason, and pages are taking ages to load up

phantom_lord

pretty simple. cause he's gonna bet an a-high board with his full range which is pretty wide. if u bet he'll just fold those hands and call with ones that have u beat.

Ace2007

yea but if u flat call the flop - he could hit a better hand that then beats you... if K comes on turn or a diamond, and he bets again what then?

as it stands - u have no idea what he's betting with, imo if u bet flop then u find out easily/quickly/cheaply

robinlacey

i would fold preflop in hand 1,as played i would call

hand two i would fold if there is no history between us,if he's been doing stuff like this regularly i would consider shoving but usually just fold.

Theresalwaysone

Fold hand one preflop. But call and see what the turn brings.

Hand two, cheeky f***er check raising you jim ( doesnt he know these are friendly games?) But I fold.

phantom_lord

Ace2007 wrote:

yea but if u flat call the flop - he could hit a better hand that then beats you... if K comes on turn or a diamond, and he bets again what then?

u call. worrying about being outdrawn here is ridonkulous.

as it stands - u have no idea what he's betting with, imo if u bet flop then u find out easily/quickly/cheaply

and u lose all the $$$ he puts in with his bluffs.

Theresalwaysone

Quick Question for ACE, have you recently read Theory of Poker? out of interest?

robinlacey

is there any one thread,either here or on twoplustwo,which explains clearly and concisely why betting for information is a bad idea,and if so could a mod sticky it? it seems to be by far the biggest stumbling block for a lot of people.

breadmonkey

robinlacey wrote:

is there any one thread,either here or on twoplustwo,which explains clearly and concisely why betting for information is a bad idea,and if so could a mod sticky it? it seems to be by far the biggest stumbling block for a lot of people.

I would imagine a lot of people would like you to write one if you get a chance.

Van Dice

Ace2007 wrote:

yea but if u flat call the flop - he could hit a better hand that then beats you... if K comes on turn or a diamond, and he bets again what then?

as it stands - u have no idea what he's betting with, imo if u bet flop then u find out easily/quickly/cheaply

IMO this is really bad. If I had 3-bet you here, and you lead into me I shove on you 90% of the time and expect to be called 10% of the time. Which is basically why leading is bad.

valor wrote:

utg limper, laggy co raises and laggy button re raises. everyones range is huge here. co calls which probably cuts down his range a good bit, but its still very wide. Ace flops, CO checks and button bets almsot all of huge range. note alot of players will bet JJ-KK here because they are stupid. he will also be betting his 56s, QJo, whatever 2 cards he decided to resteal with.

we have tp2k, raising is dumb, and we cant fold because we are miles ahead of his range, so we call..

Agree with this, good analysis so far. Especially "note alot of players will bet JJ-KK here because they are stupid." lol. I actually think the presence of the UTG limper widens ranges in the hand quite a bit...

Ace2007 wrote:

yea but if u flat call the flop - he could hit a better hand that then beats you... if K comes on turn or a diamond, and he bets again what then?

as it stands - u have no idea what he's betting with, imo if u bet flop then u find out easily/quickly/cheaply

What? If I am ahead on flop, he 'could' hit a better hand that beats me, but I generally like playing pots where I'm trying to fade 2 outs. Never understand why there is so much fear of flush draws, him having a flush draw is very unlikely. And if he has KK why shove on him?!

Theresalwaysone wrote:

Fold hand one preflop. But call and see what the turn brings.

Hand two, cheeky f***er check raising you jim ( doesnt he know these are friendly games?) But I fold.

Yeah I do fold here usually but I prefer when I'm being a calling station

You have no idea how much I hate being checkraised. That, being 3-bet, and minraised drive my insane. Actually if the button limped and I raised from the blinds, and he limp-minreraised, that's probably my worst nightmare!

robinlacey wrote:

is there any one thread,either here or on twoplustwo,which explains clearly and concisely why betting for information is a bad idea,and if so could a mod sticky it? it seems to be by far the biggest stumbling block for a lot of people.

EXACTLY!!


Anyway for results based people I dwelt and called hand one, and check-called shove on turn. Tricky one I thought, and I'm not sure about it. I don't like folding it really because I think is range is wider than normal, partly due to a limper being raised (people seem to have a passion for that now, and a resteal play based around that is developing a bit (imo, otherwise I'm paranoid), partly due to an obvious 3-bet when I raise cutoff. He has AK a lot, AQ sometimes, and a random hand other times. Against some people I instafold preflop, others depend a bit more, and this was right on borderline. He had 7c6c this time though hehe
Was just interested to see how people generally play this, because it is a fairly common situation. And I hate it cos there are large reverse implied odds, as most people shut down with <AQ on the turn. Which is why I usually fold to a 3-bet here. But it's good when calling stationism is rewarded.


Hand 2 I think he has a flush draw 90%+ of the time with the full pot CR. I shoved and he called with KdJd. I don't like my play though cos I am an underdog to his range, I think it's better to call and shove a non-diamond, non A/K turn. He has an 8 here sometimes obviously but I really wouldn't expect to see it much. Plus I have outs

Anyway if it's not already very clear I am a calling station and basically never fold a pair lol

Ste05

robinlacey wrote:

i would fold preflop in hand 1,as played i would call

hand two i would fold if there is no history between us,if he's been doing stuff like this regularly i would consider shoving but usually just fold.

Yep, this is what I'd do too, in hand 1, we're OOP with a hand that has negative implied odds, I'd push or fold here, basically never really calling, if I did call, I'd lead the turn (if my image/table dynamics allowed it) to induce a re-raise (that can be a bluff/weaker made hand enough to make the call profitable).

Hand 2 again, just fold.

MacStacked

robinlacey wrote:

is there any one thread,either here or on twoplustwo,which explains clearly and concisely why betting for information is a bad idea,and if so could a mod sticky it? it seems to be by far the biggest stumbling block for a lot of people.

Agreed.

Here is a pretty long thread on the subject, well actually on raising for info but it was all I could find.

Skip to page 4 there are some excellent posts from HJ which should do the trick..helped my game alot.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054993896&page=4

robinlacey

yeah that thread is the perfect example,might be a bit much to plunge people right into the argument but at least the article that daragh reposted from twoplustwo should be stickied or something.

on a side note,what ever happened to fast machine?

he was clearly wrong on that thread but i seem to remember he was pretty good in general,does he still play?

MacStacked

It was a very entertaining argument...

FM i dont think has posted in months. He was usually a pretty good poster too, which is a pity.

phantom_lord

robinlacey wrote:

yeah that thread is the perfect example,might be a bit much to plunge people right into the argument but at least the article that daragh reposted from twoplustwo should be stickied or something.

on a side note,what ever happened to fast machine?

he was clearly wrong on that thread but i seem to remember he was pretty good in general,does he still play?

he was on my 100nl table a few mins ago.

cooker3

phantom_lord wrote:

he was on my 100nl table a few mins ago.

I hope you used the chatbox for information on where he stood

AmarilloFats

Why is a continuation bet by villain "stupid"??? I'd fire a bet here very often with and expect it to be the most +ev flop play- regardless whether I have
9Ts or KK-JJ...

Robin -you said you fold AQ to the rr in hand 1 what hands do you call with if you're playing lag and if villain is lag..?
What about if you've position on raiser? Would you call w/ QJs?
I think my 3bet calling range in spots like this is horrible...

Van Dice

AmarilloFats wrote:

Robin -you said you fold AQ to the rr in hand 1 what hands do you call with if you're playing lag and if villain is lag..?
What about if you've position on raiser? Would you call w/ QJs?
I think my 3bet calling range in spots like this is horrible...

What is your 3-bet calling range here? IMO it's the trickiest spot you can have, as by playing on you are going to be playing a big pot OOP. Assuming button is decent, he is 3-betting you with a fairly wide range here, so you can't fold anything but premiums. And if you call, what is your plan for flop?
Also, what would be a sensible 4-betting range?

robinlacey

i hardly ever cold call 3bets regardless of the situation with stacks of less than 150bbs,i'd say i call maybe 5-10% of them,(unless they are minraises or something) and thats usually something like if i have AA or KK and the villain is only half stacked so that the 3bet puts a decent amount of our effective stacks in preflop.

if i raised on the button with AQ i suppose i would often call a 3bet from a habitual reraiser in the blinds,this would be the cutoff hand though,usually nothing worse although obviously game conditions,table rhythms and total fish sometimes cause me to change my mind.

out of position i pretty much never call 3bets,its way too much hassle.i would 4bet or fold.

as for 4betting ranges,these really have much more to do with the rhythm of the game than the cards that i have,in these games where everyone is 3betting all the time you just have to 4bet sometimes,and it really comes down to feel more than anything else.

Van Dice

"so you can't fold anything but premiums"
I mean that you have to continue with a wider range than premium hands. Unfortunately I'm illiterate!

AmarilloFats

robinlacey wrote:

i hardly ever cold call 3bets regardless of the situation with stacks of less than 150bbs,i'd say i call maybe 5-10% of them

if i raised on the button with AQ i suppose i would often call a 3bet from a habitual reraiser in the blinds,

3 betting is rife at 2/4 party atm...Do you think calling 5-10% of 3 bets will be enough of a deterent?
eg. 2/4 folded to me on button I open to 16. if there is a regular in either of the blinds I think I will be repopped here about 33% ( Guess) of time!

Should I be open folding more hands if decent reg's are likely to repop!?

robinlacey

i think in the general the answer is to slightly tighten your opening range and also loosen up your 4betting range.

calling is rarely the answer in my opinion

AmarilloFats

Van Dice wrote:

What is your 3-bet calling range here? IMO it's the trickiest spot you can have, as by playing on you are going to be playing a big pot OOP. Assuming button is decent, he is 3-betting you with a fairly wide range here, so you can't fold anything but premiums. And if you call, what is your plan for flop?
Also, what would be a sensible 4-betting range?

Far too wide for 100bb stacks I must admit.
lots of pocket pairs...77+
AQ+
Sometimes 89s and the likes....eaaaakkk ...
Does PAHUD record 3betting %?? Is there anyway to assess this other then note taking/paying attention!?

robinlacey

sorry,somehow when i was saying that i rarely call 3bets i totally forgot about pocket pairs,i usually call with TT and JJ and sometimes with lower depending on the villain...

fuzzbox

BigCityBanker wrote:

1 is an easy fold, you gotta believe he is doing this with AJ or A8 or worse?

Wtf? Why you want to fold?

Folding this flop sux.
Everybody bets an Ace after they 3-bet (except maybe with KK/QQ), but they sure as hell bet 78 and 56 and any other bag of rubbish that they 3bet you with.

AmarilloFats

robinlacey wrote:

i think in the general the answer is to slightly tighten your opening range and also loosen up your 4betting range.

calling is rarely the answer in my opinion

I like this. ty.

but here's the thing - The thing= Ok, so I tighten up my opening range and I get AJs or 99 or AQo on the button I make it 4bb a regular in blinds makes it 12bb...he has reached the "critical point" of the hand - that is IF calling ain't the option doesn't 4 betting allow him to play well and commit alot of my stack!! what hands would you make it 36-40bb and fold to push!??


calling the 3 bet seems to have some merits , if we plan on rr/calling/floating his continuation bet with missed overs etc..

fuzzbox

Ste05 wrote:

Yep, this is what I'd do too, in hand 1, we're OOP with a hand that has negative implied odds

Im not sure that it has negative implied odds if your opponent is willing to go hammering away on a bluff, or hammering away on a worse hand.

Ste05

fuzzbox wrote:

Im not sure that it has negative implied odds if your opponent is willing to go hammering away on a bluff, or hammering away on a worse hand.

Well that would depend on knowing our Villain, in this hand we have no history and can't really know that, if we get an A or Q high flop and the opponent is willing to get AI, we'll usually be toast without knowledge saying otherwise.

Also one thing that seems to be getting confused in this thread is the difference between getting 3-bet from someone who will have position in the hand (as in with this example) or getting 3-bet from someone in the blinds. Both are completely different scenarios.

robinlacey

AmarilloFats wrote:

I like this. ty.

but here's the thing - The thing= Ok, so I tighten up my opening range and I get AJs or 99 or AQo on the button I make it 4bb a regular in blinds makes it 12bb...he has reached the "critical point" of the hand - that is IF calling ain't the option doesn't 4 betting allow him to play well and commit alot of my stack!! what hands would you make it 36-40bb and fold to push!??


calling the 3 bet seems to have some merits , if we plan on rr/calling/floating his continuation bet with missed overs etc..

i may have been a little over-zealous in my denouncing the idea of ever calling three-bets,although i think almost everyone would be better off calling them less often than they already do,myself included...

its not that i never call,with something like 99 i will often call,though not always,and i'm certainly not suggesting 4betting it!

as i said upthread,for non pair hands,AQ is probably my cutoff for calling,AJs may look almost the same but hands play very differently in reraised pots and AJ just looks like trouble,with so much gone in preflop your implied odds aren't good enough that the hand being suited makes much of a difference.

as for pairs,this is obviously trickier,and it really comes down to a feel for how the table is going,how likely your opponent is to stack of if you hit your set,or at the other end of things how likely he is to bet once and give up.its much more of an art than a science,and i still often don't really know whether to call or fold when i get 3bet and i have a pocket pair less than tens.

fuzzbox

Ste05 wrote:

Well that would depend on knowing our Villain, in this hand we have no history and can't really know that, if we get an A or Q high flop and the opponent is willing to get AI, we'll usually be toast without knowledge saying otherwise.

We have some knowledge of villain in this instance though - he is 23/18 or something. AQ is well ahead of his button 3-bet Vs our (28/20) co open range.

I dont love calling, as we are oop, so its harder to get paid if we hit/easier to fold the best hand and easier to get stacked when we hit and he hits harder.

Given the way the games are playing these days, it seems that everybody 3-bets anything suited and remotely connected, so I dont think its a trivial fold for AQ now, and I also dont think that its as much of a reverse implied odds hand as it used to be, since ppl dont fold their one-pair in a 3-bet pot so easily anymore.

fuzzbox

robinlacey wrote:

i think in the general the answer is to slightly tighten your opening range and also loosen up your 4betting range.

calling is rarely the answer in my opinion

If you are getting 3-bet a fair amount, do you not believe that calling is v.useful? It makes you really hard to play against if you dont fold your open everytime you are 3-bet. 4-betting is risky, but calling fairly frequently, in position, makes it very difficult for your opponent to play back at you as he often faces really tough spots with his weak 3-betting hands.

Also - it allows you to trap more often with your actual big hands. ?????

fuzzbox

robinlacey wrote:

as for pairs,this is obviously trickier,and it really comes down to a feel for how the table is going,how likely your opponent is to stack of if you hit your set,or at the other end of things how likely he is to bet once and give up.its much more of an art than a science,and i still often don't really know whether to call or fold when i get 3bet and i have a pocket pair less than tens.

With the aggression in the games today, I'm starting to question whether I should open raise all the pairs anymore, because of all the 3-betting.

Ste05

fuzzbox wrote:

We have some knowledge of villain in this instance though - he is 23/18 or something. AQ is well ahead of his button 3-bet Vs our (28/20) co open range.

This is tight as far as I'm concerned and I don't like the spots we are guaranteed to get in post flop with what will be a very shallow hand, if I think I'm ahead of his range I'd prefer to raise again then call, I'd do it with AK, AA, KK, QQ, JJ and so will also do it with AQ, 1010, 99 occasionally.

fuzzbox wrote:

If you are getting 3-bet a fair amount, do you not believe that calling is v.useful? It makes you really hard to play against if you dont fold your open everytime you are 3-bet. 4-betting is risky, but calling fairly frequently, in position, makes it very difficult for your opponent to play back at you as he often faces really tough spots with his weak 3-betting hands.

Also - it allows you to trap more often with your actual big hands. ?????

I call 3-bets all the time if the hand is at least 100BB's deep, and I have position for the rest of the hand, however, if we will be OOP I fold or raise almost always. The times we raise in the CO and the button raises is so few and far between it's not something to be worried about. (if the button is habitually raising our CO opens, then the game dynamics change and I adjust accordingly).

I have a tight range when in EP and so if I'm 3 bet in those situations, I 4-bet alot, because my range is tight anyway, but does include some S/C's, small pairs, etc. so if you always 4 bet your big hands and some of these other hands and fold the rest, it makes our game difficult to play against, there's nothing wrong with giving up the 4BB's and we only have to 4-bet successfully once every 3 hands to break even. So we don't have to be 4-betting that much to break even. [EDIT: The variance is obviously savage, because if I 4-bet I'm never folding if 100BB's deep, so I pick hands to 4-bet with that I'm willing to get AI against the Villain, and why BR requirements have increased in my opinion, once you get over .50/1 I think]

fuzzbox wrote:

With the aggression in the games today, I'm starting to question whether I should open raise all the pairs anymore, because of all the 3-betting.

I presume you're not talking about open limping. I open fold 22, 33 and 44 sometimes in EP these days, if the other players are not terrible at the table and 3-betting is common, if it's not I'll raise as usual.

fuzzbox

Ste05 wrote:

This is tight as far as I'm concerned and I don't like the spots we are guaranteed to get in post flop with what will be a very shallow hand, if I think I'm ahead of his range I'd prefer to raise again then call, I'd do it with AK, AA, KK, QQ, JJ and so will also do it with AQ, 1010, 99 occasionally.

yes its tight, but its also aggressive. You are have laggy stats and just raised from the CO.

I call 3-bets all the time if the hand is at least 100BB's deep, and I have position for the rest of the hand, however, if we will be OOP I fold or raise almost always. The times we raise in the CO and the button raises is so few and far between it's not something to be worried about. (if the button is habitually raising our CO opens, then the game dynamics change and I adjust accordingly).

My comments here were not directly about the hand in question, where I agree we dont have a great calling hand, because its AQ, we are OOP and its offsuit. They were more directed at robins "call less" idea. I'd like to discuss it more, because I dont think its clearcut. I cant really call less, because then I'd almost never call at all , and I think we should be able to call 3-bettors, especially in common CO open Vs Button 3-bet, button open Vs blind 3-bet and such.

I presume you're not talking about open limping. I open fold 22, 33 and 44 sometimes in EP these days, if the other players are not terrible at the table and 3-betting is common, if it's not I'll raise as usual.

Never say never, and yes, I'm starting to consider all options for these type of hands. They dont mind a single raise, but they dont like a reraise too much (unless they are reraising of course).

sikes

open min raise preflop in the CO / OTB

Ste05

fuzzbox wrote:

yes its tight, but its also aggressive. You are have laggy stats and just raised from the CO.

Again true, but they're the stats of a good TAG, yet another reason why I don't want to get involved OOP. Without more info. Again if an A or Q flops we don't win much but can lose our stack while being in complete no-mans land for what will be a shallow hand.

My comments here were not directly about the hand in question, where I agree we dont have a great calling hand, because its AQ, we are OOP and its offsuit. They were more directed at robins "call less" idea. I'd like to discuss it more, because I dont think its clearcut. I cant really call less, because then I'd almost never call at all , and I think we should be able to call 3-bettors, especially in common CO open Vs Button 3-bet, button open Vs blind 3-bet and such.

I don't think the CO v Button 3-bet is all that common, if it is, then I 4-bet lighter or fold. Against a Blind 3-bet, I don't see anything wrong with calling with something that has potential. I certainly would be more inclined to 4-bet or call and fold all my blatant blind steal hands. As we all know position is just sooo important. But I'd also like a decent discussion on the point as this seems to be developing into.

Never say never, and yes, I'm starting to consider all options for these type of hands. They dont mind a single raise, but they dont like a reraise too much (unless they are reraising of course).

If you are open limping and calling you'll have to do it with more hands than just small/medium pairs, or your implied odds will plummet against any decent type of player, and your raising range will be tighter. Personally I think this type of strategy will just entail far too many changes to a style to make your whole game completely different.

.

Van Dice

I think the game has changed a ton recently, 3-betting was uncommon up until relatively recently. And there's still a difference when playing Crypto v Full Tilt say, the American players are a lot more aggressive preflop. Therefore a playing style which beat the more passive preflop games is not going to be the best one to beat some of the insane games now.
A year ago, I remember playing 2/5 on Crypto and if there was a preflop AI it was AA v KK every time. Folding KK was a valid option against some of the regulars too. Now, I wouldn't even dream about folding it.
I think as Ste mentioned, playing small pairs for sets just isn't profitable any more in a lot of games, as most players 3-betting range is so wide that you are by no means guaranteed to get a payoff when hitting a set. Limping them is an equally bad option because you become too transparent.
I think AK/AQ have risen in value, while small pairs, suited connectors have gone down a lot. A lot of games now I'm more than happy to get my stack in with one pair.
Playing in a game with lots of 3-betting is more frustrating, and variance is increased a lot obviously, but if people aren't very good, then 3-betting is just magnifying a lot of their errors.
Combatting it includes 4-betting more loosely, and also smooth-calling with QQ+ sometimes too. Mix it up, and I always take notes on players whenever I see a hand that goes to showdown that they either 3-bet themselves, or called a 3-bet. Also I note a player who I have played a 3-bet pot with, and if the hand went to showdown I try to play it differently the next time. eg if I smooth called the 3-bet with AA, next time I will probably 4-bet with AA.

robinlacey

fuzzbox wrote:

My comments here were not directly about the hand in question, where I agree we dont have a great calling hand, because its AQ, we are OOP and its offsuit. They were more directed at robins "call less" idea. I'd like to discuss it more, because I dont think its clearcut.

in the last few days i've spent too much time posting on message boards and not enough playing poker so i'm going to hold off posting more about this for the minute,but now that you mention it i'd like to discuss this more too,and i'd be curious to hear more from you and other posters about this.

intuitively i feel that calling three bets is almost always going to be messy,hugely increase varience and guessing games,and basically the idea wrecks my head,but at the same time i should be worried about ev more than varience,and you might be onto somthing,so i'm going to think about this some more.

robinlacey

actually one other thing i just thought of - i said that 4betting more is an option against habitual 3bettors,and i do think it is necessary in the very agressive 5/10 games i've played a lot of.

however,i've played 10k hands of 2/4 this week and just realised that in all those hands i only 4bet bluffed once,so its probably not nearly as necessary at lower midstakes games,since these games are significantly softer and thus require much less of that sort of thing. i'd imagine that you could be a big winner at 2/4 and below without ever 4betbluffing,and this is definitely not the case at 5/10 and up.