The future of atheism

Attractive Nun

It barely needs to be stated that religion, in Ireland, is in decline. Church attendance and religious belief are falling to levels that we haven't seen in this country probably since the Famine. I don't know the exact figures for how many people profess to be Christian or religious in another way, but despite the obvious decline I'd imagine it's still rather high - certainly the majority. Speaking purely from my own experience, however, the vast majority of my friends (I'm 19) are atheist - maybe not hardened, coherent atheists, but lacking in 'faith' nonetheless. At a guess, I'd suspect less than 10% of friends my own age are in any way religious.

My question is this: when older generations die, and the younger generations (of which, I'll assume, my friends are reasonably representative) 'take over', will a figure like 10% religious belief become reality? Or, as we grow older, will some atheists change their mind about their nonbelief - perhaps prompted by fear of a more imminent death? Can the long-held faith of the Irish people disappear within a few generations, or will it take a lot longer to root out such ingrained values?

Dades

Attractive Nun wrote:

Can the long-held faith of the Irish people disappear within a few generations, or will it take a lot longer to root out such ingrained values?

I sat quietly through a family memorial mass on a Sunday two weeks ago in Dublin, and the congregation were almost all middle age and over, or foreign nationals. But IMO the church will never die out, just take a less prominent role. A certain amount of the population will always need religion.

If you asked a number of very clever people at the start of the 20th century I wonder how many would have thought the world would be living with Jihads and Western Evangelism in 2007.

robindch

As The Atheist has said, I don't believe it will ever really die out, because there is a small percentage of people susceptible to it in the same way that there are always people susceptible to the apparently soothing balms of homeopathy, astrology, 9/11 conspiracy theories, alien abduction etc, etc.

Having said that, the church's decline from power and influence to indifference and irrelevance seems unstoppable and it seems likely to me that in fifty years or so, the catholic church in Ireland will be about as important as the CofE is in England today, only with no representation in the secular administration of the country.

Tim Robbins

robindch wrote:

Having said that, the church's decline from power and influence to indifference and irrelevance seems unstoppable and it seems likely to me that in fifty years or so, the catholic church in Ireland will be about as important as the CofE is in England today, only with no representation in the secular administration of the country.

One has to remember as well that some of these Churches are actually quite good at recruiting people. On the Channel four news last night it showed some Evangelical Christians going into Jails and finding plenty of new recruits.
They are also recruiting in under developed countries and apparently have millions recruited in China.

The second thing we can't forget is that some of these Churches can adapt and can change. The RC Church largely accepts evolution theory even though this theory blatantly falsifies genesis. So the doctrine church of the 16th century may have died out but it has been replaced by the Church of the 21st century.

They also still have a major grabble on our schools and aren't going to give that up easily.

lostexpectation

robindch wrote:

As The Atheist has said, I don't believe it will ever really die out, because there is a small percentage of people susceptible to it in the same way that there are always people susceptible to the apparently soothing balms of homeopathy, astrology, 9/11 conspiracy theories, alien abduction etc, etc.

Having said that, the church's decline from power and influence to indifference and irrelevance seems unstoppable and it seems likely to me that in fifty years or so, the catholic church in Ireland will be about as important as the CofE is in England today, only with no representation in the secular administration of the country.

how does seem in the UK a lack of church

the future is sea otters apparently...

anybody following the abuse payouts in the US most of the churches are filing for bankruptcy to protect their assets ...schools etc been taken which they claim to parish assets rather archparish which are being sued, so the schools have been kept even after paying at 600 million.. i wonder where they get that money from their coffers or insurance companies money? what happens to all those dioscese after bankruptcy of the church

Fallen Seraph

Since the time that atheism was no longer a jailable offence atheists have been confidently predicting a massive decline of mainstream religion. It still hasn't arrived. Perhaps a major decline of religion is a second coming for atheists?

Sangre

I don't care about a decline in religion. I only care about a rise in secularism.

Esmereldina

Sangre wrote:

I don't care about a decline in religion. I only care about a rise in secularism.

Yep, lots of people really want to retain a belief in something, whether as a member of an organised religion, or whether they have their own kind of 'spirituality', and this is fine with me as long as church and state are kept fully separate. Lots of people seem to believe in a God because they want there to be one, and I suspect that even if they were offered proof that there really wasn't one, they would somehow cling to their belief anyway, just because they want it to be true. As far as I can see, while there are lots of people turning away from organised religion, these same people are usually still reluctant to call themselves atheists, and hold on to a more vague belief in some kind of higher power.
Anyways, maybe that's a little off topic, but as long as their religious beliefs don't dictate laws or social mores (well in a serious way because a little influebce would be unavoidable I think), I think that's ok... And I think that's the way religion will go in Ireland at least (the US being a whole different matter), with it gradually becoming more of a personal thing rather than a institution with actual powers over people's lives.

JimiTime

robindch wrote:

As The Atheist has said, I don't believe it will ever really die out, because there is a small percentage of people susceptible to it in the same way that there are always people susceptible to the apparently soothing balms of homeopathy, astrology, 9/11 conspiracy theories, alien abduction etc, etc.

Love it!

Bottle_of_Smoke

I think it will go into decline.

Everyone seems to be reading the God Delusion. My Dad got really annoyed thinking back to his schooldays run by priests after seeing Richard Dawkins on the late late.

It's cool to be an athiest these days.

robindch

JimiTime wrote:

Love it!

Aye, it's quite accurate, isn't it?

MooseJam

maybe immigrants will take up the slack, the future could see a steady fall in Christianity and a steady rise in Islam

philologos

Attractive Nun wrote:

It barely needs to be stated that religion, in Ireland, is in decline. Church attendance and religious belief are falling to levels that we haven't seen in this country probably since the Famine.

Christianity and other faiths are not falling. They are growing, just at a slower rate than secularism or humanism.

Fallen Seraph

Jakkass wrote:

Christianity and other faiths are not falling. They are growing, just at a slower rate than secularism or humanism.

Where, then, are the extra atheists coming from? When the percentage is out of 100 not everyone can be increasing. I don't doubt "hard-core" religion is on the rise, but it's daft to say that all religion is on the rise.

JimiTime

robindch wrote:

Aye, it's quite accurate, isn't it?

You make it sound like a mental defect:) Actually, you probably think it 'is' one:D Oh wat to do with yee at all.

Attractive Nun

Jakkass wrote:

Christianity and other faiths are not falling. They are growing, just at a slower rate than secularism or humanism.

Care to qualify that? (I'm just talking about Ireland, remember)

In a brief google search, I've concluded that approximately 88% of Irish people, in 2002, defined themselves as "Roman Catholic" - and the majority of the remainder were still some brand of Christian, so I think it's fair to focus on them when deciding if religion is in decline (although I admit that immigrants will more than likely be religious). The problem with religion is, obviously, that people will often label themselves as religious even though - by any reasonable standard - they are not. Again, it's by no means a conclusive statistic, but according to a graph in this study, mass attendance in this country has fallen to somewhere around 50%. It would seem to me that, even the amount of people defining themselves as religious is increasing - something I have yet to see any evidence for - that certainly the 'degrees of religiousness' in the country are falling quite dramatically.

If the above is true, then I think it could have big impact on the future of church and state relations, and the impact of religion on social mores. Not only because any stigma associated with defining oneself as 'atheist' will gradually disappear, but because any political or cultural stigma associated with being anti-religious will do likewise.

robindch

JimiTime wrote:

You make it sound like a mental defect Actually, you probably think it 'is' one [...]

No, not at all! From looking into what religion is, and how it spreads from person to person, I believe that religion has evolved to a status analogous to a life-form, except that it reproduces and evolves in the corridors of the human brain, rather than on the surface of the earth.

Viewed this way, religion is something which is very well adapted to living in humans, something which can change its appeal subtly from person to person, sufficient to ensure that it continues replicating, which is what it's only "point" (as much as there is one, which there isn't really). The substance of each religion -- gods, trinities, spirits, invisible things, supplication etc, etc -- is pretty much unimportant, but the transport mechanism is amazing.

So, no, it's not a mental defect. It's rather an unintentional side-effect of the architecture of the brain. And a fascinating one at that.

Galvasean

Attractive Nun wrote:

Care to qualify that? (I'm just talking about Ireland, remember)

In a brief google search, I've concluded that approximately 88% of Irish people, in 2002, defined themselves as "Roman Catholic"

Very true, although many are baptized as Catholic, often they don't really act in the spirit of their religion or even know/care about it. In many cases it seems to be more of a political label than a religious one.
On my few trips to the church in recent years (funeral masses) I see very few young people (I'm 21 for the record) attending mass. The vast majority of what few are there seem to either be just there because their parents bring them or for the same reason I am, ie: to respect the memory of a deceased relative, not actively partake in one's own religious practice. The majority of people in mass tend to be elderly (60+) and from what I am led to believe they are the only ones who go both consistently and in any large number.

Asiaprod

I believe there is currently a steady decline in progress. However, I do not see religion dying out completely. There will always be people that need a religion. I would watch to see how the more evangelical-based religions increase, they at least are paying far more attention to the younger generations. The RC branch I do see declining rapidly, driven by a graying population, and an inability to change with the times to meet the needs of the younger generation. For me, it will be very interesting to compare, when he does die, the difference in statistics between Pope Benedict's and John Paul's reigns.

Dr_Teeth

Hmm, well in 2002, 94.45% said they were religious. In 2006, 94.19% said they were religious.. so there's a ways to go yet. I play the Poles tbh!

lostexpectation

MooseJam wrote:

maybe immigrants will take up the slack, the future could see a steady fall in Christianity and a steady rise in Islam

currently catholic immigrants are taking up the slack

Fallen Seraph

Asiaprod wrote:

The RC branch I do see declining rapidly, driven by a graying population, and an inability to change with the times to meet the needs of the younger generation. For me, it will be very interesting to compare, when he does die, the difference in statistics between Pope Benedict's and John Paul's reigns.

I think Brian Calgary is spot on in his analysis of what makes a religion popular; not changing with the times. I fully expect Benedict's aggressive stance to be much "better" for catholicism than John Paul's generic friendliness.

Asiaprod

Fallen Seraph wrote:

I think Brian Calgary is spot on in his analysis of what makes a religion popular; not changing with the times. I fully expect Benedict's aggressive stance to be much "better" for catholicism than John Paul's generic friendliness.

It will be interesting to see, if I am wrong I'll buy you a pint:)

DinoBot

Fallen Seraph wrote:

I think Brian Calgary is spot on in his analysis of what makes a religion popular; not changing with the times. I fully expect Benedict's aggressive stance to be much "better" for catholicism than John Paul's generic friendliness.

I agree, I think his hard line approach is what people want these days.
There has been a lot of negative attitude toward the church over the past few years and now I see a changing attitude in the RC church which I have not seen before.
They seem to be reclaiming their "right" to belief. It may be just me, but I am beginning to see cathloics being offended if their beleif is questioned.
This is quite common within Islam but I had not seen this within the catholic faith before. I think the church has picked up on this and thats why we see the pope coming out with the statements he has recently.

Sangre

Jakkass wrote:

Christianity and other faiths are not falling. They are growing, just at a slower rate than secularism or humanism.

Are they growing per head of population or just increasing in numbers?

Are you referring to global figures or ones for the developed world or even Ireland?

I think most people when referring to declining are referring to the western world.

PDN

Fallen Seraph wrote:

I think Brian Calgary is spot on in his analysis of what makes a religion popular; not changing with the times. I fully expect Benedict's aggressive stance to be much "better" for catholicism than John Paul's generic friendliness.

Benedict is smart enough to figure out that the future of Catholicism lies in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Already the majority of Catholics live outside of Europe & North America, and demographics (low birth rates in the West versus soaring rates in the South) mean that trend will only increase. I love the responses of baffled intellectuals who can't understand why Benedict is being so hardline. They still haven't figured out that Catholicism in the US and Western Europe is hardly his most pressing concern.

Galvasean

Get them while they are poor and ignorant... Dam you Papa Razi!!!