SE €100 early exit hand, i'm not crazy am i!?

ditpoker

we're at the 75-150 level and i'm sitting on about 8,000. player to my left is on 13,000 or so having cracked AA with KK all in preflop. About an orbit before the hand below I folded JJ to him preflop and showed. I've been playing reasonably tight.

I limp with Jh4h from the cut off with the intention of reraising eddie the eagle 99% guaranteed BB raise, but button reraises to 600 which pi$$es me off cos he'll have position on me... anywho... the small blind and eddie in the bb both call the 600 so i call the remaining 450 and 4 of us see a flop with 2400 in the pot.

Flop come Kx, 6h, 8h... small and big blinds both check. !. Now what? well i decided to check to either get a free turn card or check-raise the button which would scream strength i figured. the button dually obliges and fires out 1500. it goes fold fold back to me and i instantly re-pop it to 4000. 2. anyone else think this is ok?

Now the bit that I presumed was fine and had every player at the table looking at me as if i've three heads. button shoves all in and i'm now faced with the decision to call 4k on a jack high flush draw with chance to win 14k. I instantly called. 3. please tell me this is a correct call? or am i crazy? to make things more fun the button says "i have you on a set" :rolleyes: and show AK, and i say "no... flush draw" to which eddie the eagle pipes up with the following gem "usually i like to wait until i have the flush to bet" i smile politely while thinking "go fudge yourself eddie!" 4. anywho, i miss and am out (despite picking up a straight draw on the turn).

so to recap..
1. how do people like to play the flop when checked to me?
2. merits to the check raise on a draw? am i better off shoving?
3. is this a correct call?
4. would anyone have told eddie to go fudge himself!!?

BigCityBanker

just fold it preflop and save yourself the hassle - you cant win this tourney in the early levels but you can lose it.

carfax

I fold 99% of the time pre-flop there Jeff and I'm talking about not even calling for 150......If you expect the BB to raise pre-flop a lot I like to wait for a medium strong hand (so early in the tournament) and gut 'em with position etc.....

Gholimoli

i dont like the hand becuase limp calling with J4s is not really a good play as im sure you know so basically either open raise or fold and i prefer to fold.

post flop i would bet it and fold it if i got raised.
checking with the intention of check riase is bad simply becuase if you do check raise you are playing the hand for your stack.
having been a tight player the brings more merits to the check raise as you can many of hands to fold but as you saw you got called with TPTK and obviously either you were not tight enough for him to fold or else your opponents cant fold any hands which deffo makes the check raise a bad play seen as its only good if you can get better hands(some of them made hands) to fold.

having check raised the only right play is to call and you had no decion there really and its the only right play you made imo in this hand.
as for Eddie i wouldn't worry too much i would just laugh if i were you.

MrPillowTalk

ditpoker wrote:

we're at the 75-150 level and i'm sitting on about 8,000. player to my left is on 13,000 or so having cracked AA with KK all in preflop. About an orbit before the hand below I folded JJ to him preflop and showed. I've been playing reasonably tight.

I limp with Jh4h from the cut off with the intention of reraising eddie the eagle 99% guaranteed BB raise, but button reraises to 600 which pi$$es me off cos he'll have position on me... anywho... the small blind and eddie in the bb both call the 600 so i call the remaining 450 and 4 of us see a flop with 2400 in the pot.

Flop come Kx, 6h, 8h... small and big blinds both check. !. Now what? well i decided to check to either get a free turn card or check-raise the button which would scream strength i figured. the button dually obliges and fires out 1500. it goes fold fold back to me and i instantly re-pop it to 4000. 2. anyone else think this is ok?

Now the bit that I presumed was fine and had every player at the table looking at me as if i've three heads. button shoves all in and i'm now faced with the decision to call 4k on a jack high flush draw with chance to win 14k. I instantly called. 3. please tell me this is a correct call? or am i crazy? to make things more fun the button says "i have you on a set" :rolleyes: and show AK, and i say "no... flush draw" to which eddie the eagle pipes up with the following gem "usually i like to wait until i have the flush to bet" i smile politely while thinking "go fudge yourself eddie!" 4. anywho, i miss and am out (despite picking up a straight draw on the turn).

so to recap..
1. how do people like to play the flop when checked to me?
2. merits to the check raise on a draw? am i better off shoving?
3. is this a correct call?
4. would anyone have told eddie to go fudge himself!!?

I usually wouldnt bother with the advice but you really butchered this one.

1) When you need to fold a hand pre flop NEVER show, you only open yourself up to either (a) being shown the bluff to steam you (b) someone telling you nice fold wheither it was or not and then you question yourself for an orbit or two and (c) you paint a bullseye on yourself. I dont see what showing JJ here achieves do you think someone is going to turn around and say "superb fold your the boss!!" then show you a better hand, the ammount of times this happens is far outweighed by the ammount of times your opponent will oblige you showing you a worse hand and needleing you all night.

2) For all his faults Eddie can smell a bluff a mile off, limping from the cutoff is never going to happen with a hand that you are intending to portray with a limp reraise, most good players will see this as a bluff line straight away. If you are going to open a pot in the cutoff you should raise somewhere around 100% of the time, if you are going to play Jh4h here you should definately raise. Eddie is fairly relentlessly aggressive and if he is defending his BB with gusto you should be looking to tighten up your hand selection to hands that can stand a reraise and play well against Eds range, this doesnt mean you have to play tight I will happily 4 bet/shove against Eds BB raises with AT+, 66+ and probably KQ; and as Ed can be counted on to reraise a late position raise defending his blind I basically wont open anything outside the above range.

Limping here is just so poor, you basically are playing your hand face up when you call the raise you can only have a small pair or suited muck so when the heart draw is on the flop you are never going to get anyone to fold an overpair so baically you are committing to playing for stacks with the worst of it when you continue in the pot on the flop. If you raise pre flop and the button raises behind you let go no real harm done. If you raise pre flop and the button and Eddie call then you can either lead big at the flop or cr all in and your hand will have alot more fold equity as your range is not so easily defined. But the crux of it really is that you should just muck J4 pre flop.

3) As previously outlined I would just fold to the buttons bet as he should never really get away from top pair with the board so draw heavy and given your pre flop action. Once you cr to 4k then yes its an easy call for the rest of your stack but that doesnt mean you didnt get to this point dreadfully, this is what I mean when in number 2 when I say you are committing to playing for stacks. As far as a cr to 4k or a cr shove being better I personally prefer the cr to 4k as no half decent player should think it possible for you to get away for your last 4k so they know they have no fold equity and a cr to 4k looks a little less like a draw than a shove does. I dont see why you are rolling eyes at the button thinking you have a set as you shouldnt show up with a flush draw much here so set is making up a small but significant part of your range. I dont know why you would even be bothered by what Eddie said, its fairly standard table talk you need to be able to suck that up.

Im not having a go at you but you should really be looking at your preflop lines much more than your flop play, your preflop action is very -ev.

bops

i like your train on thought (never wrote that before - is it right? looks kinda silly) anyways you're not affraid to think outside the box unlike all those snotty "i read lots of poker books" muppets ^^^

"your open limp is blah blah blah" - well you had a good reason for it so it's not a bad move

checking the flop to c/r of get a free card are both perfectly fine

insta repop to 4k is lovely

the ai call is...well a fold would be horrible

it just didn't work out for you, and you gave it your best shot, better luck next time

Moneymaker

Wow, way to donk off your chips.

LuckyLloyd

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LuckyLloyd

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mrflash

you are trying to make a move on a bad player, the answer to that is you cannot bluff a bad player, but he will probably when you have a hand. j4 suited is not a playable hand, even if you hit the flush on the turn, you are not safe, to trips or to a? k? q? with a higher flush draw, bad play is the answer to the question, on all counts, should not have played hand, should not have reraised, the only right thing you did was call the rereraise as you were pot committed.

ditpoker

eoin, great post. i agree that there is no need for me to be folding JJ face up (he did show his hand and i was happy with my fold! ) but ur right there's no need for me to be folding face up.

eddie's comment didnt bother me, i know he talks a mile a minute at the table, just thought it was funny for HIM to say he only bets when he has it.

lloyd has been at me about my serial limping. when i play tournaments and decide to raise these hands i fair much better than when i limp. I'm happy enough to play hands like J4suited, my tournament results when my range was tighter always meant i played for longer, rarely cashed and if i did it was usually for 2-3 times the buy in. since loosening up i usually find i am out very early or im hitting the final table with a good stack. i think i'd play tighter in longer strutcured tourney's but i've convinced myself that playing like an uber rock wont get results in any dublin tournament becuase the clock is simply too fast.

moneymaker... u do appreciate if i hit i have 20,000 when the average is 7,000 right? and if he folds i have 14,000? how would u prefer i donk off my chips? when i have 3 big blinds left and i push with any two and miss? be constructive, like eoin, be harsh if you must, like eoin, but be smart... like eoin.

BuChan

i think you should just fold this hand preflop. i like to play a lot of hands too but picturecard rag sooted is in the muck without too much thought. also i agree with most people here that you should at least bring it in for a raise so as you're not just trying to get lucky. the way you played the hand is probably a little suspect too, three people called the prelfop raiser it came K high and he bet. i know he doesn't have to have a K but most people won't try to bluff three callers so the check raise didn't have a good chance of getting him to fold and trying to bluff people off top pair is generally a bad idea in most casino games. i would have bet out on the flop and hoped the raiser had an underpair Ax or whatever and folded there rather than getting a healthy tank in on a J high flush draw in the early stages of the game.

Moneymaker

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I would suggest that if you have nothing constructive to say please don't bother posting. I would also suggest that you don't bother posting advice much atall - as it is probably -EV for all concerned.

I call a spade a spade. If you dont like it, dont read it.

What exactly do I need to say that hasn't been said? That you shouldnt get involved in a big pot with J4? You're 36% to hit that draw, the odds are against you. When you've popped it on the flop, you have to call and thats' fine, but you shouldn't have got involved with a bad hand to begin with. Sure, you've called pre-flop for value, but with what exactly? Jack-rag. You're odds of picking up a flush draw are 11%, and you're 2% to hit two-pair, so I don't see the reasoning behind the pre-flop call.

Sure, if you hit you've got a great stack, but do you really think getting involved early on for your tournament life with a flush draw is going to be profitible over the long-term?

Hectorjelly

any train of thought that leads you to open limping J4 with about 50 blinds should be derailed immediately

Preflop is just awful, the flop is ok but you hand sure looks like a flush draw, and you are against players who will call even if they think you have a set. So nice idea, awful execution (ie wrong target)

I remember knocking you out of a tournament ages ago when you open limped on the button with 78o. Had you raised then you would of won the blinds and been able to play on. As it played out you got your chips in badly against a range that killed yours. This hand seems very similar

NickyOD

That probably would have been a much better spot to limp raise than the one you previously envisioned. limp-calling is just horrific and as HJ said your hand automatically looks like a flush draw on the flop and there's nothing you can do about it so what you're hoping to do with that hand against opponents like this I just don't know.

ollyk1

A serious case of fancy play syndrome. I recommend a month of folding or raising. Nothing else!

Cuban Son

ditpoker wrote:

but button reraises to 600 which pi$$es me off cos he'll have position on me...

First off Jeff, just muck J4s Pre-flop as everyone else said. Horrible to be limp-calling a raise with this hand.
As from what you said above, your thought process has been impaired by your emotional state and you've clearly decided to make a stand oop (in your own words) with a weak hand, by someone with a better hand. The Gap principle comes to mind.
Now when the flop hits instead of betting you decide to check your draw and when the button bets you raise. why? You are out of position.
If you are in position you can look to get a free card. OOP you can't expect it.
Go all in, as it negates position or fold but don't stick half your stack in on the hope that if he hasn't already gone all in, that he might check behind on the turn.
As played, you've committed yourself in the hope of hitting your draw.
I hate sticking my stack in on a draw unless I think I can get my opponent to fold, if I do get called at least I'm the aggressor and it's a semibluff, I don't like calling all in with one though.
Imagine this conversation:

'I just got knocked out.'

"Oh yeah? What happened?'

'I called all in with J4'.

'Oh, vul. Hang around, we're just getting a cash game going.':eek: :$$$:

Just fold pre-flop and move on. Your pre-flop range needs to be better to play well post flop. J4s does'nt even come close.

You still have 7,400 left with the blinds at 150/300. Pick a better spot.

Mr.Plough

ditpoker wrote:

moneymaker... u do appreciate if i hit i have 20,000 when the average is 7,000 right? and if he folds i have 14,000? how would u prefer i donk off my chips? when i have 3 big blinds left and i push with any two and miss? be constructive, like eoin, be harsh if you must, like eoin, but be smart... like eoin.

its much better to shove with q10 on a qxx board in the first level because sure i have to have ak.

kebabfest

The button has raised pre-flop to signify strength. 2 callers before your good self. Realisticially calling with this hand out of position the only thing that is going to win you the hand is a J 4 or 4 4 on the flop. Your J is probably outkicked (fcuking booted being a better expression) .
Now on the flop he has bet out. A reraise like that aint going to get rid of him unless he has total air, now is it ?
In the early rounds of a tourney playing with crap like that is ok if you do can do it cheap and you have a good read on the table. However doing so can put you in situations like this.
One thing I do think you should look at as much as pre-flop selection here is getting a read on what your opponents are playing.
You stated you were p!ssed off when the button raised, but you never mentioned his range of hands. It was as if you're looking at your own 2 cards withouth thinking about what the oppo has.

careca

Hectorjelly wrote:

any train of thought

BigCityBanker

Great post Eoin.

Tar.Aldarion

reraise all in on flop.

ditpoker

note to self... quit the limping!!! i've been on this forum long enough to know the merits to raising versus limping, just in live play i sometimes get protectively spewy with my chips, if i raise this hand preflop in all likely hood the button will reraise and i can narrow his range much more than if he simply raises following a limper.

i know i butchered the hand preflop, and its something i know i do and shouldnt do. i posted the hand cos everyone at the table couldnt understand while i called the guys push at the end.

time to get selectively more aggressive me thinks, and then bust HJ from the SE 200 game! thanks for the quality replies lads

BobSloane

Not advocating limping here but if I do it in mid-late position i'd rather do it with hands like 68o than j4suited. When you flop open-enders and double bellybusters on rainbow flops, check-raises look alot more like sets and have much more folding equity(imo) because alot of players can't see them. Every clown can see a flush draw