Clever Jewish people

Tim Robbins

I have always got the impression that the Jewish people (statistically) are a very clever bunch of people.
I found these links today which definetly add some weight to that perception.
Check out the amont of Nobel prizes they have won.

Compare that to Christians!
(Note I checked up on the last Christian to win a Nobel prize for anything of intellectual merit and it's this dude: Joseph E. Murray,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_E._Murray who is a Methodist. I wonder what he'd think of the creationist thread?)

Muslims are lagging behind.

Incidently we're not doing to bad

I accept that like the CSO some of this statistics may be inaccurate in that the Nobel prize winner is lieing to keep his parents happy. I also accept that there are many controversies on some of the previous Nobel winners.
That said, they are interesting stats.

Son Goku

I assume the Jewish list is Jewish by ethnicity and not by faith, because if it is that is a severely incorrect list and Einstein and several others are missing from the atheist list.

Also, the list is a bit unfair to Christians as they were very prominent in mathematics, which doesn't have a nobel prize.

Tim Robbins

Son Goku wrote:

I assume the Jewish list is Jewish by ethnicity and not by faith, because if it is that is a severely incorrect list and Einstein and several others are missing from the atheist list.

Also, the list is a bit unfair to Christians as they were very prominent in mathematics, which doesn't have a nobel prize.

Yes many Jewish people, consider themselves atheist, agnostic etc but still Jewish for ethnicity reasons etc.
It's still quite an extradinary achievement, would you not think?

Son Goku

Tim Robbins wrote:

It's still quite an extradinary achievement, would you not think?

I can't speak for anything but physics. For physics it was mainly because they dominated the emerging European middle class during the time of the university of Gottingen's mathematical heyday (or mathematical paradise, I wish I could have been there) and hence were very absorbed into the new Ph.D. culture.

Others have also suggested their matriarchal structure was a factor.

The Mad Hatter

I'm going to qualify this statement by saying that I know very, very little about Jewish culture, but as far as I've seen, Jewish people seem to put a great degree of emphasis on education.

Tim Robbins

Son Goku wrote:

I can't speak for anything but physics. For physics it was mainly because they dominated the emerging European middle class during the time of the university of Gottingen's mathematical heyday (or mathematical paradise, I wish I could have been there) and hence were very absorbed into the new Ph.D. culture.

Others have also suggested their matriarchal structure was a factor.

I think it's genetic. The amount of very clever Jewish people is staggering. Leaving aside the Nobel prizes and consider some other famous Jews:
Noam Chomsky, Henry Kissinger, Woody Allen, Larry David, Loui Thouroux, Martin Gilbert (Historian), Alain De Botton, Karl Marx, Freud, Jonathan Miller.
Not saying you have to like or agree with them all but there's no doubting they are / were clever. It's unbelievable their intellectual achievements considering as a percentage they have always been far smalled than so many other ethnicities and religions.

failsafe

Son Goku wrote:

I assume the Jewish list is Jewish by ethnicity and not by faith, because if it is that is a severely incorrect list and Einstein and several others are missing from the atheist list.

Also, the list is a bit unfair to Christians as they were very prominent in mathematics, which doesn't have a nobel prize.

Einstein was an atheist?

pH

failsafe wrote:

Einstein was an atheist?

Yes - by most reasonable definitions of the word 'atheist'.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
Albert Einstein

Tim Robbins

pH wrote:

Yes - by most reasonable definitions of the word 'atheist'.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
Albert Einstein

Correct. Many Jewish people are atheist / agnostics possibly another indication of their intelligence :;
My point is more about the ethnicity as many Jews call themselves both Jewish (as in ethnicity) and atheist.

Obo

At the moment I'm reading In Search of Memory: The Emergence of a New Science of Mind by Nobel laureate Eric Kandel.

In it he discusses his Jewish roots, living in Vienna at the time of Hitlers arrival etc.
He discusses the importance of education to Jewish people...

My parents shared the values of most other Viennese parents: they wanted their children to achieve something professionally - ideally, something intellectual. Their aspirations reflected typical Jewish values. Ever since the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D., when Yohanan ben Zakkai left for the coastal town of Yabneh and established there the first academy for the study of the Torah, Jews have been a people of the book. Every man, irrespective of financial position or social class, was expected to be literate in order to read the prayer book and the Torah. By the end of the nineteenth century, upwardly mobile Jewish parents were encouraging their daughters as well as their sons to become well educated. Beyond that, the goal of life was not simply to achieve economic security, but rather to use economic security to rise to a higher cultural plane. What was most important was Bildung - the pursuit of education and culture. It meant a great deal, even to a poor Jewish family in Vienna, that at least one son succeed in becoming a musician, a lawyer, a doctor or, better still, a university professor.

Tim Robbins

Obo wrote:

At the moment I'm reading In Search of Memory: The Emergence of a New Science of Mind by Nobel laureate Eric Kandel.

In it he discusses his Jewish roots, living in Vienna at the time of Hitlers arrival etc.
He discusses the importance of education to Jewish people...

Very interesting, Obo. Just thought of another few clever Jewish people: Robert Winston and Robert Pollack.

lostexpectation

The Mad Hatter wrote:

I'm going to qualify this statement by saying that I know very, very little about Jewish culture, but as far as I've seen, Jewish people seem to put a great degree of emphasis on education.

as do all migrants

The Mad Hatter

lostexpectation wrote:

as do all migrants

Er? I'm not so sure that that's true...

Fallen Seraph

I'm surprised no has mentioned this; I read an article a while ago which proposed that a particular race of jews (who, as a race, have a statistically higher IQ and to which belonged Einstein, Mendelschossen and Freud) had above average mental powers because during the middle ages when the jews were big into their money lending, a sort of social darwinism experiment occurred. The way the social situation worked was that the better a money lender you were, the more money you made (duh), and it was quite common for the jews of the time to spend their extra money on having more kids. So the better at maths, finance and social skills you were translated directly into having more offspring. While if you failed you had less children.

The arguement sounded very plausible to me, but I saw no research or figures.

Also, you might want to take the proposition with a grain of salt because the author was, frankly, batsh!t insane. He also held a theory that homosexuality was transmitted by flies. That said, I did find it plausible in and of itself.

Son Goku

Tim Robbins wrote:

I think it's genetic.

I always thought it was their culture, because often scientific geniuses from other ethnic groups had strong mother figures and a strong mother figure is an aspect of jewish society.

That said, they are unusually productive in the sciences, nearly as much as the English. (Unfortunately for them their greats came before the Nobel Prizes or are in fields not often rewarded, e.g. Hawking, Newton, Penrose, Darwin.)

MooseJam

They can't be that clever if they believe in God

Dades

No offence, but this thread is daft IMO.

Rev Hellfire

There's an interesting article on Einsteins personal beliefs which may place him more on the agnostic fence than the outright atheist one. Its a much of a muchness some might argue.

http://ffrf.org/fttoday/2004/nov/raner.php

monkeyfudge

Well I'd be Jewish by ethnicity, Catholic by upbringing and atheist of my own volition.

I'd certainly have a lot of respect for the Jewish culture though... But I'd have no time for the religion.

You should consider the use of language in this thread by the way. The use of the word Jew as a noun has been abused so much over there years that you're generally best off avoiding it and using Jewish instead.

pH

Yea - the phrase "Clever Jews" sounds like a snowclone of "Clever Bastards" - with pejorative undertones.

Also someone needs to add "Einstein was an Atheist - Deal with it" to their sig - why are both theists and agnostics seemingly so desperate to claim him as one of their own?

My own opinion is that very few of the arguments have any purpose except to show the intelligence of the protagonist. The theist and agnostic arguments seem to be more to do with "These are the intelligent position - how dare you think we're stupid" than anything else. Obviously Einstein was 'clever' so if Einstein also believed X - then X is the clever belief - see we're not stoopid!

Tim Robbins

monkeyfudge wrote:

You should consider the use of language in this thread by the way. The use of the word Jew as a noun has been abused so much over there years that you're generally best off avoiding it and using Jewish instead.

I have re-edited all my posts. Thank you for pointing out my ignorance and sincere apologies to all.

Dades

Tim Robbins wrote:

I have re-edited all my posts. Thank you for pointing out my ignorance and sincere apologies to all.

I don't think you need to apologise, you haven't intentionally offended anyone I can see.
Unless you're being sarky and I missed it!

Tar.Aldarion

I don't know what the question in here is.

Tim Robbins

The Atheist wrote:

I don't think you need to apologise, you haven't intentionally offended anyone I can see.
Unless you're being sarky and I missed it!

Not being sarky. Apologising for ignorance and for any offense which of course was unintended.

Cactus Col

hmmm ... it looks like Christians have won the most Nobel Prizes for peace.....

They must be the most peaceful.

By that I mean this thread is a bit daft. It all seems a bit too indulgent in the "Atheists are smarter" myth.

Tar.Aldarion

Tim Robbins wrote:

Not being sarky. Apologising for ignorance and for any offense which of course was unintended.

No need, people tend to be super PC around the place. Where would weird al be if people were like that?


Veren zol fun dir a blintsa

(How ya doin' Bernie?) Oy vey, oy vey
(How ya doin' Bernie?) Oy vey, oy vey
(How ya doin' Bernie?) Oy vey, oy vey
And all the goyim say I'm pretty fly for a rabbi

Meccha leccha hi, meccha hiney hiney ho

Our temple's had a fair share of rabbis in the past
But most of 'em were nudniks and none of 'em would last
But our new guy's real kosher, I think he'll do the trick
I tell ya, he's to dies for - he really knows his shtick

So how's by you? Have you seen this Jew?
Reads the Torah, does his own accounting too
Workin' like a dog at the synagogue
He's there all day, he's there all day
Just say "Vay iz mir!" and he'll kick into gear
He'll bring you lots of cheer and maybe bagels with some shmeer
Just grab your yarmulka and
Hey! Hey! Do that Hebrew thing!

(How ya doin' Bernie?) Oy vey, oy vey
(How ya doin' Bernie?) Oy vey, oy vey
(How ya doin' Bernie?) Oy vey, oy vey
And all the goyim say I'm pretty fly (for a rabbi)

He shops at discount stores, not just any will sufice
He has to find a bargain 'cause he won't pay retail price
He never acts meshugga and he's hardly a schlemiel
But if you wanna haggle, oy, he'll make you such a deal!

People used to scoff, now they say "Mazel tov!"
He's such a macher 'cause he worked his tuchis off
Yeah, he keeps his cool and teaches shul
What's not to like? What's not to like?
On high holy days, you know he prays and prays
And he never eats pastrami on white breath with mayonnaise
Put on your yarmulka and
Hey! Hey! Do that Hebrew thing!

When he's doing a Bar Mitzvah, now that you shouldn't miss
He'll always shlep on down for a wedding or a briss
They say he's got a lot of chutzpah, he's really quite hhhhhip
The parents pay the moyl and he gets to keep the tip

(How ya doin' Bernie?) Oy vey, oy vey
(How ya doin' Bernie?) Oy vey, oy vey
(How ya doin' Bernie?) Oy vey, oy vey

Meccha leccha hi, meccha meccha cholly ho

He's doin' well, I gotta kvell
The yentas love him, even shicksas think he's swell
Show up at his home, he says "Shalom"
And "Have some cake - you want some cake?"
Yah, he calls the shots, we really love him lots
Oy gevalt, I'm so ferklempt that I could plotz
So grab your yarmulka
The one you got for Chanukah
Let's put on our yarmulkas and
Hey! Hey! Do that Hebrew thing!

Tim Robbins

Cactus Col wrote:

hmmm ... it looks like Christians have won the most Nobel Prizes for peace.....

They must be the most peaceful.

By that I mean this thread is a bit daft. It all seems a bit too indulgent in the "Atheists are smarter" myth.

I would say that means Christians like to think of themselves as peaceful :;
I don't think you can dismiss this topic in its entirety. Statistically, there at least 50 times more Christians than Jewish people in the world but the Jewish people seem to punch well above their weight intellectually. Now if you think that way you must provide evidence, that is all I am doing.

lostexpectation

The Mad Hatter wrote:

Er? I'm not so sure that that's true...

i think its as true as the original premise which I trying to broaden to save it going down the wrong avenue, there was interesting program on african immigrants to uk on a while back should how the adult pop arrived did any job bus driver etc, but it was not cliche to say they by god they were determined that their children would knuckle down and become lawyers and doctors etc etc, and its the same with every wave of immigrants since...

Attractive Nun

I have actually noticed the large number of seemingly intelligent Jewish people throughout history - at least in traditionally academic disciplines. I'd actually be surprised if it had nothing to do with genetics, because it's quite extraordinary really. Nobel prizes are, of course, not the only way to measure intelligence, but I'd predict that Jewish people perform very well in most other areas of academia too.

stevejazzx

well i think it's a quite an interesting topic actually
i'd agree with ph though, if anything intelligence would be derived from culture..although as some pointed out intelligence itself is a fickle entity, it's measurable by many different criteria and modes, i suppose what we're primarily discussing here is academic intelligence, in which case again i would nominate culture and immediate envoiroment as the biggest contributory factors for maturing or advancing the mind...which come to think about would explain the broader outlooks of those who are non religous...possibly

monkeyfudge

Tim Robbins wrote:

Not being sarky. Apologising for ignorance and for any offense which of course was unintended.

At least it's better than Mel Gibson's apology...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1eJfBaGT18

PDN

They did come up with the first version of Google ....

monkeyfudge

PDN wrote:

They did come up with the first version of Google ....

That's pretty awesome!

lostexpectation

look its historical they were band from many trades and guilds so they had to use their heads

2Scoops

Tim Robbins wrote:

I think it's genetic. The amount of very clever Jewish people is staggering. Leaving aside the Nobel prizes and consider some other famous Jews:
Noam Chomsky, Henry Kissinger, Woody Allen, Larry David, Loui Thouroux, Martin Gilbert (Historian), Alain De Botton, Karl Marx, Freud, Jonathan Miller.
Not saying you have to like or agree with them all but there's no doubting they are / were clever.

Not to mention Jerry Seinfeld, Rob Schneider (Deuce Bigalo), Goldberg the wrestler, Ali G and Billy Crystal. All geniuses. Depending on your definition of genius.

dan719

Son Goku wrote:

I can't speak for anything but physics. For physics it was mainly because they dominated the emerging European middle class during the time of the university of Gottingen's mathematical heyday (or mathematical paradise, I wish I could have been there) and hence were very absorbed into the new Ph.D. culture.

Others have also suggested their matriarchal structure was a factor.

A little off topic but me too. Also as a general ethnic group Jews have the highest average I.Q ~ 108.

MooseJam

If they are so clever why do they still practice the Jewish faith

dan719

MooseJam wrote:

If they are so clever why do they still practice the Jewish faith

I believe it has already been demonstrated that many of the people referenced in the thread were in fact atheists/agnostics. The discussion imho is based more on jewish ethnicity rather then actual practise of religion.

dan719

To respond to the point raise about the Fields Medal, since 1936 six British people have been awarded the 'nobel prize of mathematics'. To clarify the medal is awarded every four years to a maximum of four people. Note Andrew Wiles who proved the famous Fermat's Last Theorem recieved a Field's Medal Silver Plaque as he was over the age limit of forty.

Edit;Of course Grigory Perelman(famous for refusing the Field's medal) was a Russian Jew.

MooseJam

dan719 wrote:

I believe it has already been demonstrated that many of the people referenced in the thread were in fact atheists/agnostics. The discussion imho is based more on jewish ethnicity rather then actual practise of religion.

I know, but I'd hazard a guess, I may be very wrong, but I'd hazard a guess that the Jewish are among the most devout of all ethnic groups

dan719

Sorry I don't quite follow. Devout in what manner? As in 'loyal to the tribe'? Surely centuries of anti-semitism and the holocaust would explain such a thing.

MooseJam

dan719 wrote:

Sorry I don't quite follow. Devout in what manner? As in 'loyal to the tribe'? Surely centuries of anti-semitism and the holocaust would explain such a thing.

as in devoted to religion, I'm just saying if they are so clever why are they so devoted to religion

Dades

MooseJam wrote:

as in devoted to religion, I'm just saying if they are so clever why are they so devoted to religion

I can think of two obvious answers to that:

1. Jewish people are not so clever, or
2. We can't generalise that people who are religious can't be clever.

I'd go with 2, myself.

PDN

MooseJam wrote:

I know, but I'd hazard a guess, I may be very wrong, but I'd hazard a guess that the Jewish are among the most devout of all ethnic groups

45% of American Jews are secular. Over 50% of the population of Israel are secular Jews.

The OP that started this thread was comparing achievements of Jews (a race) with Christians (a religion). That is like saying black people are better at sport than Presbyterians.

MooseJam

PDN wrote:

45% of American Jews are secular. Over 50% of the population of Israel are secular Jews.

The OP that started this thread was comparing achievements of Jews (a race) with Christians (a religion). That is like saying black people are better at sport than Presbyterians.

lol, thats some funny sh1t, does anybody know what % of Irish are secular, I'd guess it's pretty high at the moment with mostly the elderly going to mass

lostexpectation

PDN wrote:

45% of American Jews are secular. Over 50% of the population of Israel are secular Jews.

The OP that started this thread was comparing achievements of Jews (a race) with Christians (a religion). That is like saying black people are better at sport than Presbyterians.

what exactly does the mean though "American Jews are secular"

PDN

lostexpectation wrote:

what exactly does the mean though "American Jews are secular"

It means they don't practice their religion. They don't observe Jewish rituals or go to synagogue etc. It does not mean that they are atheists. About 34% of American secular Jews (15% of American Jews in total) say they don't believe in God.

lostexpectation

PDN wrote:

It means they don't practice their religion. They don't observe Jewish rituals or go to synagogue etc. It does not mean that they are atheists. About 34% of American secular Jews (15% of American Jews in total) say they don't believe in God.

so they are more then lapsed jews...

that's an extraordinarily high %

Tzetze

Peter Kershaw, in "Economic Solutions" lists the ten major shareholders of the Federal Reserve Bank System as: Rothschild: London and Berlin; Lazard Bros: Paris; Israel Seiff: Italy; Kuhn- Loeb Company: Germany; Warburg: Hamburg and Amsterdam; Lehman Bros: New York; Goldman and Sachs: New York; Rockefeller: New York. (That most, if not all of these families just happen to be Jewish, you may judge the significance of yourself).

Baron M.A. Rothschild wrote, "Give me control over a nation's currency and I care not who makes its laws."

dan719

Einstein wrote an essay on this very topic. It can be read in his 'book' Ideas and Opinions. He first defined the 'being Jewish' not as membership of a religion but rather as membership of an ethnic group. He then went on to claim that 'Jews as a group placed a high value on education and intellectual achievement'.