Pocket 10's - live $5/$10 from the Rio.

BigCityBanker

I posted about this hand on my blog but there are a couple of spots im unsure about. Comments appreciated.

5/10 live NLHE from the RIO. Im plkaying c.2k. Villian in the SB is playing c.800 everybody else covers.

Ive got 10 10 on the button after 3 limpers I decide to limp along also. (pot 60)

>> The table is playing big. Massive tanks in play and there calling light preflop. If I mkae it 70/80 im pretty sure im gonna get called in at least 2 spots if not more. With that in mind I limped to disguise the strength of my hand and also cos i want to keep the pot somewhat undercontrol. Comments??

Flop Jd10dX

It gets checked to me and i bet 60 and get called in 3 spots. (Pot 300)

Turn is 9x.

It gets cheked to me and I check behind.

>> At this point i decided to check behind as a trade off between pricing out FD's V keeping the pot under control. Also to guard against a large CR from anybody with a turned straight who may have been trapping. Comments?

River is a brick and its checked to me. I tell them ive to value bet my hand as I think ive got the best of it. I fiddle with my chips wondering how much to bet and decide on $125. The SB jams for c.$700. I call pretty quickly as I do not think that a turned straight should play 2 streets so passively. I think the call is fine but il listen to peoples thoughts to the contrary? Maybe I should have bet more?

Thoughts please?

Hectorjelly

your hand is pretty well face up, I really hate the speech play on the river because if they were in any doubt as to what you had they know now. Also your bet size on the river is perfect for someone to chk raise bluff you. They know you have a good hand that cant beat KQ. Keep quiet and bet the river for 250 and I guarantee you if you are raised you are toast. That all said you played it well if you are calling a raise/push, but I don't think inducing bluff raises in multiway pots is something you want to be trying

Id definitely raise preflop, but limping is ok. Turn I would probably check, esp if the players usually bet big

cooker3

Pf, I definately raise, if you get called so what. You have position and a good hand in a raised pot and if you hit a set you have great opportunity to stack someone.
Flop is standard
On the turn again I bet, while yeah a straight draw has hit, your losing lots of value against opponants with lone jacks, 2 pair hands and your given free cards to flush draws. There are still a lot of hands you beat!
On the river, sort of opponany specific, has he done this before?
I think a call is good here.

BIG-SLICK-POKER

BigCityBanker wrote:

I posted about this hand on my blog but there are a couple of spots im unsure about. Comments appreciated.

5/10 live NLHE from the RIO. Im plkaying c.2k. Villian in the SB is playing c.800 everybody else covers.

Ive got 10 10 on the button after 3 limpers I decide to limp along also. (pot 60)

>> The table is playing big. Massive tanks in play and there calling light preflop. If I mkae it 70/80 im pretty sure im gonna get called in at least 2 spots if not more. With that in mind I limped to disguise the strength of my hand and also cos i want to keep the pot somewhat undercontrol. Comments??

Flop Jd10dX

It gets checked to me and i bet 60 and get called in 3 spots. (Pot 300)

Turn is 9x.

It gets cheked to me and I check behind.

>> At this point i decided to check behind as a trade off between pricing out FD's V keeping the pot under control. Also to guard against a large CR from anybody with a turned straight who may have been trapping. Comments?

River is a brick and its checked to me. I tell them ive to value bet my hand as I think ive got the best of it. I fiddle with my chips wondering how much to bet and decide on $125. The SB jams for c.$700. I call pretty quickly as I do not think that a turned straight should play 2 streets so passively. I think the call is fine but il listen to peoples thoughts to the contrary? Maybe I should have bet more?

Thoughts please?

Hey Noeli

Dont Know Noel , I know u are a decent Cash Player as i played with u before but i was on donk mode ...I think I raise Regardless Preflop myself on the Button With 10 10 to get the really weak hands out, The flop i continue bet as Normal with a pot bet i think if u are called then its a Flush drawing hand Turn is not nice but u will find out where u are with a bet......

I dont think i call his $700 when im in for $195 but i would have to see how the guy was playing all along but it screams 2 pair to me not a straight but he did get a cheap pre flop and turn for $60 so it could be Q/8 as i think K/Q would raise Pre flop here ..... If u were right it was a great call ... It will be interesting to see what he had ???

Captain Tom

i raise p/f but i dont think limping is that bad.

like HJ said, bet/folding kinda sucks because you enticed the shove. if you bet 200-250 your way less likely to be bluffed because villian knows when he shoves you'll be getting much better odds to call. plus into a pot of $300 your losing a lot of value betting $125.

as played i call.

sikes

depending on the stacks and players, i would consider bloating the pot preflop, try and keep everyone in.

OT: i sent ya a pm noel yesterday, but doesnt look like the golf will get off the ground as many are jumping ship tomorrow including me, and it looks like you would be losing too much $ to give up a cash session!

biteme

raise preflop

flop and turn OK, betting turn is also probably OK because you will get called by worse.

you have a river decision that is all about whether you are being bluffed or not, this means you should include reads on the small blind otherwise there is not much point posting the hand. Against many live players I just fold to the raise. If he is good I probably call, your hand does not look very big.

biteme

also I disagree with HJ, I don't think your hand is face up even after the speech play. Assuming you are mostly unkown to them you could have AJ, 2 pair, missed diamonds.

valor

>> The table is playing big. Massive tanks in play and there calling light preflop. If I mkae it 70/80 im pretty sure im gonna get called in at least 2 spots if not more. With that in mind I limped to disguise the strength of my hand and also cos i want to keep the pot somewhat undercontrol. Comments??


getting called in multiple spots is good

Cuban Son

biteme wrote:

also I disagree with HJ, I don't think your hand is face up even after the speech play. Assuming you are mostly unkown to them you could have AJ, 2 pair, missed diamonds.

Hi Dave, I think what HJ means here is basically BCB has a strong hand but not the nuts so, 2 pair would be in his range here.
Its obvious to everyone that he hasn't got the straight but is strong.
The player probably pushes due to the information BCB volunteered.

Ace2007

interesting hand, and situtions i hate to be in. raising preflop has the advantage and i would agree with cooker3(for probably the only time:))
probably would have checked behind on the river- but thats just me, unless of course u knew he would push, and hence u gave the "speech" - otherwise why did u open ur mouth?????

El Stuntman

Ace2007 wrote:

probably would have checked behind on the river- but thats just me, unless of course u knew he would push, and hence u gave the "speech" - otherwise why did u open ur mouth?????

lol, BCB's mouth is rarely closed!

although he does use it to good effect at the table...

con_leche

Raise pre-flop. As Valor says, you want callers.

You must bet the turn.

The SB played the hand poorly anyhow.

CaptainNemo

BigCityBanker wrote:

Ive got 10 10 on the button after 3 limpers I decide to limp along also. (pot 60)

I would definitely raise but I understand the rationale, you want to hit big and win a monster pot. But it's a much riskier way to play it. I don't think you're keeping the pot under control at all, rather you're increasing the chance that it will grow to be a monster.

BigCityBanker wrote:

Flop Jd10dX

It gets checked to me and i bet 60 and get called in 3 spots. (Pot 300)

Turn is 9x.

It gets cheked to me and I check behind.

>> At this point i decided to check behind as a trade off between pricing out FD's V keeping the pot under control. Also to guard against a large CR from anybody with a turned straight who may have been trapping. Comments?

I think the check behind is OK. You're letting the flush draws in for free but you're also giving yourself a free card to pair the board in case someone has just made a straight. I think I would have bet, though, because you get more information. If you get called and it's checked to you on the river, you can check behind with a clear conscience. If you get raised then you are probably up against a straight and have to decide if you call to try and pair the board, or fold. Either way, you're unlikely to lose your whole stack on the hand, whereas as played you basically have to call the river.

River is a brick and its checked to me. I tell them ive to value bet my hand as I think ive got the best of it. I fiddle with my chips wondering how much to bet and decide on $125. The SB jams for c.$700. I call pretty quickly as I do not think that a turned straight should play 2 streets so passively. I think the call is fine but il listen to peoples thoughts to the contrary? Maybe I should have bet more?

Thoughts please?

I think the call is good. I can't see someone who's made a straight checking it on the turn and the river. You've under-represented your hand so I think you have to call now.

I don't think the value bet on the river is good, though. Based on the texture of the board and the number of people in the pot I think it's much better to check behind here and be happy with the size of pot you take down if you're ahead.

NickyOD

perfect spot to make it $70 preflop there. Your best speachplay on the river is to say nothing. (like it is 99.9% of the time)

MrPillowTalk

I raise pre flop here 100% of the time, they are calling big bets so why not get as much money in pre with a hand that crushes the limpers range? limping is silly.

Bet more on the river, your bet sizing opens you up to being bluffed or taken to value town.

Ste05

BigCityBanker wrote:

River is a brick and its checked to me. I tell them ive to value bet my hand as I think ive got the best of it. I fiddle with my chips wondering how much to bet and decide on $125. The SB jams for c.$700. I call pretty quickly as I do not think that a turned straight should play 2 streets so passively. I think the call is fine but il listen to peoples thoughts to the contrary? Maybe I should have bet more?

Just to get a little pedantic, you don't want to worry about what people should or shouldn't do, worry about what they would or wouldn't do.

As for the hand, I'd also raise it PF, 70 or 80 sounds good.

Flop: Fine

Turn: Yucky card, don't mind the check behind, but would bet it alot of the time.

River: As has been said, it's fairly obvious you don't have a straight with your turn check, I'd have bet slightly more, as has been suggested 200-250 seems good, pretty sick CRAI, I could call and could fold, with the weak bet and speech play I'd think you'll see a bluff here a bit, but enough to make a profitable call? It would depend on previous history and images, although if I was betting so small it'd probably to induce a CR bluff and so would probably call, since you snap called I presume you did the same.

Hectorjelly

biteme wrote:

also I disagree with HJ, I don't think your hand is face up even after the speech play. Assuming you are mostly unkown to them you could have AJ, 2 pair, missed diamonds.

no he couldnt have missed diamonds he bet 125 into 300 on the river in am multiway pot after checking the turn, and 2 pair is almost exactly the same hand as a set here given the action of the other players

BigCityBanker

^^ I should have said that the whole table was talking during this game as Amarillo Slim, who was BB to my button, was regaleing the table with stories of old. There was a yee haw texan, and a couple of other southerners on the table so it was not unusual for anybody to talk during the hand. It wasnt like I had opened my mouth out of the blue. As pretty much everyhand involved speech of some description from a number of players.

Anyway the SB insta mucked when i called.

CaptainNemo

BigCityBanker wrote:

^^ I should have said that the whole table was talking during this game as Amarillo Slim, who was BB to my button, was regaleing the table with stories of old. There was a yee haw texan, and a couple of other southerners on the table so it was not unusual for anybody to talk during the hand. It wasnt like I had opened my mouth out of the blue. As pretty much everyhand involved speech of some description from a number of players.

Anyway the SB insta mucked when i called.

Well done. Sounds like he made quite a decent move, you probably would have had to fold a lot of hands there.

ocallagh

BigCityBanker wrote:

as Amarillo Slim, who was BB to my button, was regaleing the table with stories of old.

lol

... and you should raise pre flop!

ps: good call

BigCityBanker

CaptainNemo wrote:

Well done. Sounds like he made quite a decent move, you probably would have had to fold a lot of hands there.

I agree. You should have seen this dude go on monkey tilt after this hand.

pumpkinpints

BigCityBanker wrote:

^^as Amarillo Slim, was regaleing the table with stories of old. .

~shivers~~

Gholimoli

i dont think you should fold any hand that you are value betting here with so i dont like villains move.

Ste05

It's fine if BCB's bet was a bluff/weak made hand that can't stand a raise but is trying to get a crying call from TP or whatever though and since the Villain doesn't know what sort of bet it is...

Hectorjelly

no its bad if he cant stand a raise as its inviting one!

Ste05

My point is the SB doesn't know what sort of bet it is, so therefore it's a bit silly to say he made a bad move because no value bet should fold, it could be a bluff or an idiot making this exact type of bet. As we all know there are enough donkey's around, who's to say the SB didn't think BCB was a donkey?

dannydiamond

raise preflop,bet turn hand was played pretty horribly from start to finish in my humble opinion.can i ask if u were playing too far above your normal game?would you play the hand the same in a 1-2 game?Reading between the lines it seems you were afraid of the other big stacks?

BigCityBanker

I forgot to mention. Not long before I played this hand I had read an article in Card Player Mag where Helmuth analyses a hand from the recent HSP. He spoke about limping 9's in positions similar to this. I actually thought about this article as I was playing my hand. Funny how you do things that you read? At least I do.

Phil_Hellmuth wrote:

First, I like to merely call with medium pocket pairs to disguise the strength of my hand; and second, I like to call (versus (re)raising) to avoid being reraised

dannydiamond wrote:

bet turn

What do you do if you get check raised on the turn?

dannydiamond wrote:

can i ask if u were playing too far above your normal game?

well they dont spread $5/$10 live in the SE. This is equivalent pretty much to a 2/5 live game back home so the answer is no.

dannydiamond wrote:

would you play the hand the same in a 1-2 game?

a 1/2 game is not comparable to a 5/10 game other than you get the same amount of cards. My raising range preflop in a 1/2 game in position is huge cos I feel I have a large edge over the others. My raising range in position at 5/10 is alot tighter cos I know I do not have the same edge and I understand that I need to adapt to the game accordingly. That said I know I am not the value in a 5/10 and in a random live game here in Vegas I know I have an edge over the table, not as much as I would have at a 1/2 game though.

dannydiamond wrote:

Reading between the lines it seems you were afraid of the other big stacks?

No, I do not sit at a game if I am "afraid" as you put it. I am not concerned about blowing the cash in front of me. I was close to sitting into the 10/20 game in the Bellagio for a 4k buyin and decided against it as I was concerned that my game would be affected and that I would be the value. I am concerned if I play a hand poorly and blow the cash in front of me. I want to play each hand in isolation as well as I possibly can, hence why I posted this hand here.

dacman

Anyone one that check raises the river at the end of this hand is nearly always bluffing. Like why wouldn’t they bet if they had a hand better than yours. Id always call this hand on the river. He may have 7 8 or Q8 but its very unlikely as surely he would have tabled a $200 or so bet here. Your speech play and weak looking bet gave him the green flag to try and bluff you off this hand.

CaptainNemo

dacman wrote:

Anyone one that check raises the river at the end of this hand is nearly always bluffing. Like why wouldn’t they bet if they had a hand better than yours. Id always call this hand on the river. He may have 7 8 or Q8 but its very unlikely as surely he would have tabled a $200 or so bet here. Your speech play and weak looking bet gave him the green flag to try and bluff you off this hand.

Look up "Gus Hansen Daniel Negreanu cooler hand" on YouTube to see Gus checkraising Daniel on the river with the absolute nuts and winning a gigantic pot.

I agree that in this hand it was unlikely that he had a straight, but I don't agree with what you say about the river checkraise. For example, he could have had the low end of the straight and checked it because he wasn't sure what BCB had, but then picked up a read from the speechplay at the end that his straight was good?