Question for the lovely RECRUITMENT CONSULTANTS...

Dudess

... they deserve a right to reply at this stage.

Ok, a couple of months ago I applied for an administrative position through a well-established Dublin recruitment agency. Firstly they didn't know what job I was going for, even though I used the online function to specify precisely which one it was, but... I got over that. Anyway, that was sorted out and they advised me that I would need to come in and register with them. Fair enough. I explained to the girl that I was temping in Cork for a few weeks and that I wouldn't be able to come up until the following Monday. She reassured me that she would phone me by Thursday (as she would be off on the Friday) to let me know either way whether the job was still open or had been filled, thereby saving me a trip to Dublin and back. What do you know? She never got back to me by Thursday evening, so I phoned her. She said the job was still going and she would leave the details with her colleague who would also be sure to phone me either way the next day - I needed to arrange where to stay in Dublin on Sunday night etc. No call. I phoned again that evening, the colleague said the job was still open.
I arrived at the agency the following Monday morning, did a couple of secretarial tests, had quite an in-depth and lengthy chat with the original girl, and filled out a bunch of forms... and THEN she informed me that interviews had been held the previous Friday and the interviewers were delighted with the standard but, you never know, they might change their minds and look for more applicants. :rolleyes: So it looks like at least one of the girls was lying. I had left it until late on Friday to find out the story and was advised that the job was still vacant - even though interviews for it were held that day! If the girl standing in didn't know that, fair enough, but the other girl (who'd been there til Thursday) surely knew. If she didn't, then that's a very badly run recruitment agency (as I said, it's well-established - been around for at least 25 years).
I let it slide.
That was May, I've heard nothing since. Administrative jobs - rare, are they? :rolleyes:

Second story: my mate applied for a specific retail position through another well-established Dublin recruitment agency about two weeks ago. Same story. He had to come up from Cork to register. They advised him of this early in the week and his interview was to be at 3.00 the following Monday... except once he had met the recruitment consultant and registered, similar story to me... actually a good deal worse: he wasn't told that interviews for the position had already been held, but that the position, that morning, had been FILLED. WTF??!! Obviously interviews had been held the previous week but they still didn't ring him to let him know or to cancel his appointment for the following Monday! Yet more dishonesty! The woman asked him to resubmit his cv to her though. I did it on his behalf as he's a complete luddite and rarely has access to email. Not a word of acknowledgement from her (it's surely just basic professionalism/courtesy to give receipt of an emailed cv) and of course he hasn't heard a thing either. Retail jobs - rare, are they? :rolleyes:

So to get to my question for the Recruitment Consultants: do you guys only get commission for placing someone, or is there a reward for simply registering them? The above two people - ok, two isn't a lot. I accept it could be a coincidence and that these may be isolated incidents of gross incompetence - but both still knew the jobs were gone and said zilch until the registration process was complete. That, folks, is a disgrace.
Also, I can't understand why an agency won't name the company seeking staff until registration is completed. Could it possibly be yet another carrot to dangle before job-seekers' eyes in a bid to entice them to register with THIS particular agency??
And finally, as I said at the start: they claimed to not know what job I was looking for and they listed a bunch of other jobs, acting as if I had just sent a general application (um... I could only have applied for a specific position - that's the way it was laid out online) so did they know the position was pretty much gone and were they trying to steer my attention to other jobs, I wonder?

monkey24

Here is an idea, stop wasting all your time moaning on a message board and apply to companies directly, or use some other agencies until you figure ot which are the best ones. Moan, moan, moan ... seriously in the great big scale of things its not a big deal ... get on with it !!!

garthv

Welcome to the world of recruitment companies.
They are the bane of all existence.

professore

monkey24 wrote:

Here is an idea, stop wasting all your time moaning on a message board and apply to companies directly, or use some other agencies until you figure ot which are the best ones. Moan, moan, moan ... seriously in the great big scale of things its not a big deal ... get on with it !!!

Monkey, with an attitude like that it's no wonder we have such a screwed up country when it comes to service. OP, why don't you complain to the management of the recruitment agency and get those incompetents fired? I'm sure the owners are not happy with their clients being treated like this.

Tom Dunne

professore wrote:

OP, why don't you complain to the management of the recruitment agency and get those incompetents fired? I'm sure the owners are not happy with their clients being treated like this.

When I had the trouble with an agency, I took the job, but I made sure my new boss heard all about what happend (I was fairly dilligent keeping all e-mails). He complained to the agency and manager from the agency rang me with a half-arsed apology.

Despite this, three months later, another "consultant" from the agency rang me to ask if I would be interested in moving.

So by all means complain. Just don't expect them to pay any heed to it.

Dudess

monkey24 wrote:

Here is an idea, stop wasting all your time moaning on a message board and apply to companies directly, or use some other agencies until you figure ot which are the best ones. Moan, moan, moan ... seriously in the great big scale of things its not a big deal ... get on with it !!!

Crappy day for ya is it, monkey? Ah well, it happens. Especially today since it's Friday the 13th.
Or... could you possibly be a recruitment consultant?

J.S. Pill

Dudess wrote:

Ok, a couple of months ago I applied for an administrative position through a well-established Dublin recruitment agency. Firstly they didn't know what job I was going for, even though I used the online function to specify precisely which one it was, but... I got over that. Anyway, that was sorted out and they advised me that I would need to come in and register with them.

I'm surprised nobody has asked the ovbious question: did this job even exist in the first place??

Dudess

Wow, hadn't thought of that. Seriously doubt it though. They gave me the name of the company. I originally found it on loadzajobs.ie.
Also, monkey24, it ain't just a moan, it's a question - well, a couple of questions.

monkey24

professore wrote:

Monkey, with an attitude like that it's no wonder we have such a screwed up country when it comes to service. OP, why don't you complain to the management of the recruitment agency and get those incompetents fired? I'm sure the owners are not happy with their clients being treated like this.

What attitude. I have had my problems with recruitment consultants, here is the difference, I got on with the situation in hand and dealt with it. I dealt with companies directly, I asked to meet my consultant so i could put a name to a face. I did whatever i could to make sure I took control of my own job search.
Here is what I didn't do, moan every week on a message board about every small thing that went wrong during my various job hunts.
The service in this country is an embarrasment for most things ....

Dudess

Oh would you just bite me!

Boards = public forum, enabling members to ask questions/make enquiries. Read the title of the thread. It's not "Rant against recruitment consultants".

monkey24 wrote:

Here is what I didn't do, moan every week on a message board about every small thing that went wrong during my various job hunts.

Well we have something in common so, because that's also what I haven't done.

Darragh29

I had an interesting splat with one of the most unprofessional recruitment agencies I have ever dealt with recently...

A few years ago I started up my own business and was advertising a few positions on a website. I specifically stated that I didn't want/need any 3rd party help, but anyway, I get a phone call from this muppet "consultant" in a recruitment firm, telling me that he had an excellent candidate that he could place within my business. When I got the terms of business, I find out that the placement fee was 6k! I wouldn't pay that to someone for sending me a CV, so I said we couldn't do business. Five minutes later he said that "senior management in the business had ok'd a new business start-up discount for me, which would bring the placement fee down to 3k!" I still wouldn't pay someone 3k for sending me on a CV, it just wasn't value for money. To make a long story short, this particular business start-up didn't work out for me so I applied for a job as an applicant to this same recruitment agency. I applied for loads of jobs and am very well qualified in what I do but was completely blanked by this agency. I rang them to follow up on applications but the outcome was always the same, "don't call us, we'll call you"... Or also, "sorry, we filled that job yesterday", even though I had applied for it the previous week.

Fast forward a year or so and I've started up a business again, identical to what I had done before but smaller and I suppose you could say smarter. I advertise a job on www.jobs.ie and get the same smarmy e-mail with a CV attahced, from the same smary c*nt in the recruitment agency that wanted me to pay him 6k for sending me a CV, who refused to consider me for any one of 50 positions I had applied for when I applied for positions that his recruitment agency had advertised, just because I wouldn't pay him 6k to place one of his candidates in my own business.

I'd love to copy and paste the e-mail I sent him up here... It turned out that I indirectly knew the applicant who he had sent me on a CV for, it was completely inaccurate, it had left out a number of jobs that he had stayed in for weeks and then left, it said he was currently working in a place that he had left 9 months ago...

J.S. Pill

Dudess wrote:

Wow, hadn't thought of that. Seriously doubt it though. They gave me the name of the company. I originally found it on loadzajobs.ie.

You mean you found the Job advertised by the company on lodzajobs.ie or you found the add by the agency on lodzajobs.ie??

I've never had any major problems with agencies in the past but it helps to know how they work and how they make their money so you don't get duped by them. From the sounds of things, you applied for a non existant job. Recruitment agencies use these adds to harvest CVs - simple as.

Dudess

J.S. Pill wrote:

found the add by the agency on lodzajobs.ie

That would be the one.

musicfan

Same bad experience with recruitment agencies.........

I registered with 5 recently in dublin.........

One insisted I went for a job even though location was not suitable. Said I'd go for interview exp.....got the job but turned it down.....never heard from her again.
One rang me after I applied for a specific job on-line but she said I didn't have necessary exp....that wasn't indicated on the website!
One took me in for an interview but said she had no jobs available even tho there was about 20 on the website.

With all 5 agencies - I applied for a specific job on line but not one of them would send me to these jobs......that obviously didn't exist

Recruitment agencies are such a waste of time.........when doing a job search on loadzajobs, monster etc - remember to exclude recruitment agencies in your search - at least then you will know you're applying for real jobs!!

Dudess

Darragh29 wrote:

I'd love to copy and paste the e-mail I sent him up here.

And I would love to see what you wrote to the little sh*t! PLEEEEASE??!!

flash harry

Dudess wrote:

So to get to my question for the Recruitment Consultants: do you guys only get commission for placing someone, or is there a reward for simply registering them? The above two people - ok, two isn't a lot. I accept it could be a coincidence and that these may be isolated incidents of gross incompetence - but both still knew the jobs were gone and said zilch until the registration process was complete. That, folks, is a disgrace.
Also, I can't understand why an agency won't name the company seeking staff until registration is completed. Could it possibly be yet another carrot to dangle before job-seekers' eyes in a bid to entice them to register with THIS particular agency??
And finally, as I said at the start: they claimed to not know what job I was looking for and they listed a bunch of other jobs, acting as if I had just sent a general application (um... I could only have applied for a specific position - that's the way it was laid out online) so did they know the position was pretty much gone and were they trying to steer my attention to other jobs, I wonder?

Hi Dudess

I'm a recruiment consultant and have my own business with a very small team and this sort of thing is the bane of my life but here's what I think on your questions:

1)Commission - its not that they get rewarded for the interviewing of people but on a weekly basis in most agencies statistics on KPI's would include the likes of candidates registered, interviews (with clients) arranged, etc as well as actual commissions. Rationale is more candidates=more placements=revenue. To get more candidates they need to register you usually by meeting you face to face. Additionally once an individual has been registered, the consultant retains a financial interest in you i.e. they may never speak to you again but if one of their colleagues finds you after searching their database and puts you in a job - the original consultant may get up to 50% of the fee towards their target. To sum up, the more people they register like this, the more potential to get money.

2) Yes of course this is why you aren't told the company - they cant make money if you dont register with them. If you tell people the client they can "by pass" you. I actuallu dont see the problem on this - you've found their ad, they've done something right to attract you, why shouldnt they get paid. Obviously all of this based on being treated professionally in all other aspects of the process.

3) Not sure what that was all about - should of been obvious which job it was - maybe they were just trawling for CVs or it was gone, either way for them to bring you up from Cork without an open role that you were interested in is a complete disgrace. Personally I would email the manager/owner and cc the consultants stressing how badly you have been treated - you might be surprised - we're not all ogre's and the owner may be appalled, I know I wouild be.

Hope that sheds some light and if you want to know any other things let me know....

Dudess

flash harry wrote:

2) Yes of course this is why you aren't told the company - they cant make money if you dont register with them. If you tell people the client they can "by pass" you. I actuallu dont see the problem on this - you've found their ad, they've done something right to attract you, why shouldnt they get paid.

Very true and fair enough - sorry!

you might be surprised - we're not all ogre's and the owner may be appalled, I know I wouild be.

As I said, you guys deserve a right to reply. Ah of course you're not all ogres - that goes without saying!

Hope that sheds some light and if you want to know any other things let me know....

It does indeed. Good, logical info. Thanks a mil, Harry. Actually, there is something I could do with a bit of info on. I'll pm you.

fret_wimp

Recruitment agents are out for No 1. I have had quite a interview arranged by recruiters, and even if i dont get the job, i expect the common courtesy of a letter, email or telephone call from the recruiters to say I didnt get the job, so that I can move on and forget about that role. But I would say that out of maby 7-8 recruiters I have had expirience with, only 3 would respond if and let you know if you were rejected. Thats just plain rude. I know the companies in question and since then they have rang me asking if I was interested in new positions but I told them I would not have any dealings with them due to their treatment of me previously. I understand its all about making money, but a simple phone call or email would have left me happy and eager to call on them again should i need to.

mountainyman

Dudess,

Do up another CV which is just like yours with a different name and phone number.

Send it out to agencies and when they set up an interview apply direct.

Worst case they won't consider you unless you go through an agency. so send your own CV to the agency.

Best case you get more money than you would have.

MM

builttospill

monkey24 wrote:

Here is an idea, stop wasting all your time moaning on a message board and apply to companies directly, or use some other agencies until you figure ot which are the best ones. Moan, moan, moan ... seriously in the great big scale of things its not a big deal ... get on with it !!!

I wouldn't be surprised if this guy "Monkey" was one of those incompetent recruiters himself. People llike him should be shipped to an island far far away where money grows on trees!

monkey24

builttospill wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if this guy "Monkey" was one of those incompetent recruiters himself. People llike him should be shipped to an island far far away where money grows on trees!

Ah what a good reply, I would say you must have burnt up one of your remaining brain cells coming up with that. Here is a suggestion though, take your crayons and coloring book back into your little hovel and don't come back out until you have something intelligent to say.

flash harry

monkey24 wrote:

Ah what a good reply, I would say you must have burnt up one of your remaining brain cells coming up with that. Here is a suggestion though, take your crayons and coloring book back into your little hovel and don't come back out until you have something intelligent to say.

yeah because your reply was so helpful and intelligent.......

Ishmael

Well I've dealt with a few different recruitment companies at this point and i have to say for the most part they've been good. The first one i had dealings with was not so good but i know won't be dealing with them again.

As far as I'm concerned, it's bad form on their part to not keep you up to date if you do agree to an interview, and would they would very quickly loose me (and any of my friends) from having any dealings with them in future.

Monkey24: If you have a dislike for the topic or the "Moaning" then why don't you try not reading the Thread.

nesf

Lads, calm it down like.

monkey24

flash harry wrote:

yeah because your reply was so helpful and intelligent.......

Did I not suggest?

1) Apply directly
2) Research best recruitment agencies and stick to these.
3) Put a name to the face.

If it was a thread asking for advice, in which people actually gave some useful examples of past experiences then that would be great. But more often than not these threads turn into every tom dick and Harry giving silly examples of how every recruitment agent in the world is scum etc.

For people who have suggested I am a recruitment consultant. I did do it for a short time but due to career aspirations, I am back into I.T, moving in a direction I prefer. So these views are not expressed by someone who is touting for business.

My original post wasn't solely based on this topic but more so because I am interested in people's experiences with recruitment consultants and see the same people bashing them at every opportunity given. No constructive feedback, just how they are worse than rapists, murders or whatever else. Now how constructive is that.

Perhaps my original post wasn’t that constructive in itself but Irish people are great at moaning but do little to improve the situation in hand. Maybe in this instance I was wrong to have a go at the original thread starter but I still stand by the fact that the same candidates who harp on about recruitment agents being a nightmare, are probably extremely awkward to deal with and make the recruitment agents life a living hell. This is backed up by the poster who advocates putting false CVs into agents so they can bypass them and go straight to the company. Is this fair? People who work in recruitment deserve to get paid if they do their job. They shouldn’t have to deal with people shafting them just because that person believes all agents are “scum”.

flash harry

flash harry wrote:

yeah because your reply was so helpful and intelligent.......

Monkey - my fault, meant to quote mountainy...who I think you are referring to - apologies!!

Darragh29

Dudess wrote:

And I would love to see what you wrote to the little sh*t! PLEEEEASE??!!

I'll rummage out my reply and your man's reply, would love to name and shame the agency involved, as their behaviour was nothing short of despicible.

Darragh29

monkey24 wrote:

My original post wasn't solely based on this topic but more so because I am interested in people's experiences with recruitment consultants and see the same people bashing them at every opportunity given. No constructive feedback, just how they are worse than rapists, murders or whatever else. Now how constructive is that.

Perhaps my original post wasn’t that constructive in itself but Irish people are great at moaning but do little to improve the situation in hand. Maybe in this instance I was wrong to have a go at the original thread starter but I still stand by the fact that the same candidates who harp on about recruitment agents being a nightmare, are probably extremely awkward to deal with and make the recruitment agents life a living hell. This is backed up by the poster who advocates putting false CVs into agents so they can bypass them and go straight to the company. Is this fair? People who work in recruitment deserve to get paid if they do their job. They shouldn’t have to deal with people shafting them just because that person believes all agents are “scum”.

Well for one, the fee's that they charge are not value for money by any yardstick. As stated above, I had a guy who wanted to charge me 6K for sending me a CV. When I asked him what service he was offering that justified an invoice for 6K, he said that if this employee did not work out in my workplace within the first month, I'd get 3K back, and if he/she left after the first month but before 3 months I'd get 2K back and after three months but before 6 months, I'd get 1K back, or something similar to that.

I was thinking to myself, if this employee leaves within 6 months, I'm not doing my job right. Does this really sound like a professional approach to recruitment??? Should this guy not be telling me, "look, here's what you need to do to make sure that this placement is 100% successful and this is what you need to do to make sure that this employee is still working with you and earning you money this day next year"???

Another time I had a recruitment agent who decided to google my name and found out by doing so that I had taken a legal case against a previous employer and then made a point of mentioning this to the HR manager of the business for a job I was interviewing for. Again, does this sound ethical or right???

I know I've never had a positive experience of a recruitment agency, I know I've never met someone who has had a positive experience of a recruitment consultant so I can't accept your post above where you appear to be defending the indefensible and putting the blame for consistent unprofessional conduct at the feet of the poor applicant who is only looking for a fair shot at an employment position.

flash harry

Darragh29 wrote:

Well for one, the fee's that they charge are not value for money by any yardstick. As stated above, I had a guy who wanted to charge me 6K for sending me a CV. When I asked him what service he was offering that justified an invoice for 6K, he said that if this employee did not work out in my workplace within the first month, I'd get 3K back, and if he/she left after the first month but before 3 months I'd get 2K back and after three months but before 6 months, I'd get 1K back, or something similar to that

I was thinking to myself, if this employee leaves within 6 months, I'm not doing my job right. Does this really sound like a professional approach to recruitment??? Should this guy not be telling me, "look, here's what you need to do to make sure that this placement is 100% successful and this is what you need to do to make sure that this employee is still working with you and earning you money this day next year"???

The value is only there when the recruiter comes up with a scarce resource you do not otherwise have access to, This, of course, is not the case if they at any point contact that person to talk them into another job. As a recruiter the whole sliding scale of rebates never really made sense to me either, and I have no idea how it became an industry norm. I actually dont offer it and am very clear with my clients on this. I do not think if I have got, say a 5K fee, and on day 31 the person leaves, leaving my client back at square one I have earned, say 2.5K. Amazingly I've had several companies insist on it???



[/QUOTE]
Another time I had a recruitment agent who decided to google my name and found out by doing so that I had taken a legal case against a previous employer and then made a point of mentioning this to the HR manager of the business for a job I was interviewing for. Again, does this sound ethical or right???[/QUOTE]

Do you mean youwere going for an interview through them??


[/QUOTE]
I know I've never had a positive experience of a recruitment agency, I know I've never met someone who has had a positive experience of a recruitment consultant so I can't accept your post above where you appear to be defending the indefensible and putting the blame for consistent unprofessional conduct at the feet of the poor applicant who is only looking for a fair shot at an employment position.[/QUOTE]

Lots of appalling recruiters BUT there are lots of appalling people in general - including people who try use a recruiter and treat them unprofessionally - we could argue forever on the chicken or the egg!!!

nesf

If the rebate for someone leaving in the first 3 months was harsher then it'd prove a strong incentive to try and get good people who actually want the job. The problem is people are fickle and they can screw the recruitment guy over too (it does work both ways) so they need to get "something" for just placing a person.

It's tricky, but it's definitely a lot better than a flat upfront fee for placing a person, then they'd have no incentive to get people who actually wanted the job, just people who'd stick around after the first day for a bit.

mountainyman

monkey24 wrote:

People who work in recruitment deserve to get paid if they do their job. They shouldn’t have to deal with people shafting them just because that person believes all agents are “scum”.

I take it that the above is aimed at me.
I don't believe all recruitment agents are scum and indeed have never said this.
But we are big boys and girls and if can have an extra x euro a week by shafting the recruiter I'll certainly do so. Recruitment is an amoral business and they certainly don't 'earn' their money.

There are valid questions to be raised by the shareholders of any business which routinely uses recruiters.

MM

flash harry

mountainyman wrote:

But we are big boys and girls and if can have an extra x euro a week by shafting the recruiter I'll certainly do so. Recruitment is an amoral business and they certainly don't 'earn' their money.

There are valid questions to be raised by the shareholders of any business which routinely uses recruiters.

MM

Surely that means if the recruiter "shafts" you by taking more of a cut he should "certainly do so" after all "we are big boys....."????? double standard anyone?????

What specific questions would you raise if you where a shareholder in a company that used recruiters???

mountainyman

flash harry wrote:

Surely that means if the recruiter "shafts" you by taking more of a cut he should "certainly do so" after all "we are big boys....."????? double standard anyone?????

The first contract I ever got I discovered the recruiter was taking a thousand a week. On the other hand I more than doubled my money. I take the recruiters attitude- if there are ten slices of pie I want all ten slices.

flash harry wrote:

What specific questions would you raise if you where a shareholder in a company that used recruiters???

How much are we paying these people. Why are we using them. What do they know about our business What do you (HR lady) know about our business. What is the cost of using them as opposed to employing someone to read CVs.

MM

builttospill

monkey24 wrote:

Ah what a good reply, I would say you must have burnt up one of your remaining brain cells coming up with that. Here is a suggestion though, take your crayons and coloring book back into your little hovel and don't come back out until you have something intelligent to say.

Your juvenile sarcasm speaks volumes. I am actually a doctor (I shouldn't really have to explain my situation) and I have been following this topic because my brother is having problems with recruitment companies. But thanks for the advice anyway. Your posts have confirmed my bewilderment with the industry.

nesf

builttospill wrote:

Your juvenile sarcasm speaks volumes. I am actually a doctor (I shouldn't really have to explain my situation) and I have been following this topic because my brother is having problems with recruitment companies. But thanks for the advice anyway. Your posts have confirmed my bewilderment with the industry.

So, being a doctor you don't have much experience in the private sector as we'd know it?

monkey24

builttospill wrote:

Your juvenile sarcasm speaks volumes. I am actually a doctor (I shouldn't really have to explain my situation) and I have been following this topic because my brother is having problems with recruitment companies. But thanks for the advice anyway. Your posts have confirmed my bewilderment with the industry.

Well if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black. What has you being a doctor got to do with anything? Your original post was something an 8 year old would write, I merely responded to that.
And have you READ any of the previous posts; I do NOT work in recruitment anymore and explained my original post. Please try to keep up and do not use your profession to substantiate your posts. If you were a cleaner, waiter, or bar tender, what does it matter with regards to your post on a message board?

flash harry

mountainyman wrote:

How much are we paying these people. Why are we using them. What do they know about our business What do you (HR lady) know about our business. What is the cost of using them as opposed to employing someone to read CVs.

MM

Thanks for answer MM, your in IT correct? So this is a sector I do not deal with much (other than the odd Field Service/Desktop support person for a company I know very well).

But in other sectors there is a massive shortage of talent and employing a CV reader would be pointless because you'd be seeing very few relevant CV's. What justifies a recruiters fee is coming up with someone good for an open role; how much they are paid surely come then down to supply and demand - basic economics?? But in reality its a set fee (%). This is bad value if the person walks and you pay any significant amount - but if they are there years later and have helped the company its probably great value.

HR lady???

FH