Planning permission for car space?

galah

Hi all,

quick question, hope it's in the right spot, if not, move, please...
Anyways, just found out that my neighbour decided to convert their front lawn to a two space car park, taking away three on-street spaces...infuriating for me and the other neighbours who depend on those spots, since there is not much space for cars anyway. Checked the online planning system for the city, and permission was granted, but only to create the spaces, NOT to lower the kerb and take away on-street parking.

There was no site notice, and permission was granted in 2000, way before I moved in here, so appeal period is long over...

Anything I can do now? I technically don't mind them having their own spot, but taking away three spaces for the one car they have is pushing it, really. Plus, the council has only recently painted lines for parking on the road outside their house and made pay and display parking out of it - can the neighbours simply ignore that, and disallow residents to park there (because now, we would be blocking their newly created driveway, but the council markings say we can park there)...Messy situation...Any ideas?

Cheers

Cabaal

Surely their taking away spaces that would have been infront of there house anyway, their entitled to have the area in front of there house free of other people's cars

mikemac

I'm finding it hard to follow but if you're infuriated that you can't park outside their house anymore can I ask the obvious question and ask why don't you park outside your own house?

patrickolee

I'll guess, OP has two cars? Or maybe other neighbours have 2 cars?

Surely having the neighbour sacrifice his front lawn to create two spaces will alleviate rather than exacerbate the situation?

galah

it's not that easy - it's a main road with on-street parking, hardly anyone has a driveway (think typical old Irish houses). The council has just converted the road into pay and display parking, and until now, there was a normal high kerb in front of everyones house (a lot of houses are divided into apartments etc, there's a lot of people living on this road, and a constant fight for car spaces).

Now the neighbours just decided to lower the curb in front of their house without planning permission for their own private parking, and therefore taking away those three spots that would have otherwise been for everyone on the road.

Does this make it clearer?

Vegeta

Cabaal wrote:

Surely their taking away spaces that would have been infront of there house anyway, their entitled to have the area in front of there house free of other people's cars

Don't know about this. Is this true. Surely you cant own the road in front of your house. There's prob even a footpath between the boundry wall and the road.

Messy situation alright

galah

Exactly, should have mentioned the footpath as well...

And they only have one car, but taking away three spaces that were for the general public...(the road is also rather close to the city, so it would be shoppers etc parking there as well)

Noelie

I cant see how one house is wide enough to allow 3 car parking spaces be allocated infront of it.

Did they have a driveway before they done the work.

galah

It is one of of those really big old Irish (Georgian perhaps?) houses. They did not have a drive-way, they had a wall-enclosed front garden. They flattened that, took the wall out (for that they had PP), and lowered the kerb (and the footpath) to make a driveway (they do not have PP for that).

Cabaal

I believe their perfectly within the right to gain access to a driveway they have planning permission for, there certainly not in the wrong to want access to something they've applied for and have been granted permission for by the County council.

Although they should have planning permission to lower the curb but I could be wrong about that so best to check with council...perhaps lowring the curb could have been part of the first planning permission?

po0k

If they only have one car, ask them if they'll rent you the second space for [insert amiable amount here].

galah

Cabaal wrote:

I believe their perfectly within the right to gain access to a driveway they have planning permission for, there certainly not in the wrong to want access to something they've applied for and have been granted permission for by the County council.

Although they should have planning permission to lower the curb but I could be wrong about that so best to check with council...perhaps lowring the curb could have been part of the first planning permission?

Nope, that's the problem. Checked their PPs, and there's nothing in it. (another neighbour down the road had a drive way put in ages ago, and they had to specify lowering the curb in the planning permission). I do agree that they should have access to their driveway, but I'm just annoyed that it's three spaces they're taking away from the public, and that the council isn't doing anything...Plus, if they had planning permission, why did the council turn the spaces in front of their house into pay and display parking just a couple of weeks ago?

I just don't get it...

A Dub in Glasgo

I think you will find that you can legitimately park in front of their house as long as a vehicle is not blocked in.

They do not own the space in front of their boundary

Victor

galah wrote:

Anyways, just found out that my neighbour decided to convert their front lawn to a two space car park, taking away three on-street spaces..

As others have mentioned, it seems odd for 2 spaces to take away 3. Is it parallel parking or nose/tail to kerb?

Checked the online planning system for the city, and permission was granted, but only to create the spaces, NOT to lower the kerb and take away on-street parking.

Lowering the kerb does not need PP. However, you normally do need to ask the council to do the work as it is their kerb / footpath.

and permission was granted in 2000

Planning permission normally expires after 5 years. If the work is ongoing now, make a complaint to the council's enforcement department. There may be additional grounds for complaint, based on the style of wotk and if it is a listed building.

Plus, the council has only recently painted lines for parking on the road outside their house and made pay and display parking out of it - can the neighbours simply ignore that, and disallow residents to park there (because now, we would be blocking their newly created driveway, but the council markings say we can park there)...Messy situation...Any ideas?

AFAIK, you now have to make a substantial payment (thousands) to erase pay parking.

Cabaal wrote:

Surely their taking away spaces that would have been infront of there house anyway, their entitled to have the area in front of there house free of other people's cars

Its a public road, anyone can use the space (within the rules).

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I think you will find that you can legitimately park in front of their house as long as a vehicle is not blocked in.

You may not obstruct any entrance/exit. Further, if you block someone in, they have a right to use reasonable force to extricate themselves.

They do not own the space in front of their boundary

Technically they might - its common in older areas to own to the centre of the road. However, it would appear to be in hte charge of the council and this means they have negligible rights to it unless the road is closed permanently (increasingly common with cul de sac laneways).

silhouette

You need to ring your local county council and ask to speak to someone in planning enforcement (or it might be called Building Control). They'll be able to tell you what your neighbour is or isn't entitled to do based on their application. It'll help if you have the reference number for the planning permission (you should be able to look this up online) when you talk to the enforcement officer. Also make sure you get the name of the person you speak to because if you end up making an official complaint by writing or email you can refer to your conversation with that person. In my experience councils aren't very proactive about planning enforcement and it depends on aggrieved neighbours drawing their attention to these things. Don't expect them to jump to attention or be speedy about coming out to see whats going on...and don't be afraid to keep nudging them about it.

It strikes me that if your neighbour made their application in 2000 that thats seven years ago now. Something niggly at the back of my mind tells me that there is a limit on the validity of a planning permission, I think its only 5 years. Their planning permission might have expired and if it has then what they've done would be unauthorised development and they'd probably have to apply for retention....which would give you a chance to object.

A Dub in Glasgo

Victor wrote:

You may not obstruct any entrance/exit.

Can you point me in the direction of where this is stated. I am especially interested in the circumstances like the one in the OP.

Technically they might - its common in older areas to own to the centre of the road. However, it would appear to be in hte charge of the council and this means they have negligible rights to it unless the road is closed permanently (increasingly common with cul de sac laneways).

So in reality, it is extremely unlikely that home owners on a public road with council parking can dictate who can park in on the public road.

Victor

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Can you point me in the direction of where this is stated. I am especially interested in the circumstances like the one in the OP.

AFAIK its in the Road Traffic Acts (probably 1961). EDIT: S.I. No. 182/1997 — Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations, 1997 article 36.(2)(g)

http://193.178.1.79/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a36

36. (2) A vehicle shall not be parked—

( g ) in any place, position or manner that will result in the vehicle obstructing an entrance or an exit for vehicles to or from a premises, save with the consent of the occupier of such premises;

So in reality, it is extremely unlikely that home owners on a public road with council parking can dictate who can park in on the public road.

Correct - assuming there is no obstruction and other laws are obeyed (parking meters, double yellow lines, etc. - but this requires council / garda action, not resident action).

In a pay parking area, sometimes an entrance will have double yellow lines outside, sometimes not. If there are no DYLs, the resident has free on street parking for that short distance.

galah

Thanks for all your answers so far.

As others have mentioned, it seems odd for 2 spaces to take away 3. Is it parallel parking or nose/tail to kerb?

It's parallel parking in line with the foothpath.

So at the moment, it looks as follows:

They've lowered the kerb (shoddy workmanship to boot, it looks pretty horrible, and was certainly not done by the council) to provide access to their drive-way, but the council lines marking those three parking spaces are still on the road.

In places where other neighbours had their driveway built, the pay and display lines reflect that (i.e. there's either a yellow box, or the lines end for the lenght of the drive-way, and then start again).

So technically, if I obey the council markings, I can park in front of their drive-way still, because there's nothing official there to tell me that I can't...

I think I'll ring the council and check, might be the best way.