Anyone on boards use the irrlicht engine?

skelliser

Hey,

was wondering does anyone here mess around with the irrlicht engine?

it would be good if we could exchange thoughts or ideas on game developmdent, rendering etc.

Evil Phil

What aspects would you like to discuss? There seems to be a growing interest in games programming on this forum.

fasty

I think engines like Irrlicht are excellent, but I would recommend at least becoming familiar with the basics of game development before jumping in at the deep end like that.

A simply arcade game clone in Java, C#/XNA or C++/SDL or even flash is a great way to get starter, learn how to plan a project and understand the differences between normal developement and game development.

From there you'll probably try to make your own framework and get it to a certain point, learn LOADS but find stuff like Irrlicht suits your needs.

Basically, getting decent results out of Irrlicht requires a working knowledge of game development to begin with in my opinion.

grahamor

3D Buzz offer XNA Training DVD's. The training they produce is really excellent quality.

Check this link

Hope it helps

skelliser

well i have been using it for a few weeks now, its actually quite easy to get up and running. theres is ten tutorials which give ya a good feel for whats going on.

Although im stuck on collisions, trying to get the mouse to click on a box!!:mad: very frustrating!!

still tho i would recommend it to anyone, you will need a grasp of c++

skelliser

actually if i post up my code could someone help!!??:D

henbane

That usually helps both you and the rest of us

Call Me Jimmy

Hmmm, this looks very interesting! I've been messing around with the half life 2 source code but there is very little information about the engine so it's frustrating to work with.

Iirrlicht appears to be well documented which means I can have a stab at it! Any of you have anything major in the pipeline?

EDIT: Anyone have experience with physics engines? Any recommendations?

skelliser

i have built a model of a building in 3ds max, exported it and have it running with irrlicht. Pretty easy to do, the tutorials help alot.

i got a fps camera working and can walk around, up and around stairs, without walking through walls,etc!!!! quite happy with that so far.

next is interaction, built another program with a box and trying to clicking on it with the mouse, having problems tho, you need to call an event and im not great with events yet.

will post up what i have to see if anyone has some guidelines as to were im going wrong:D

joe_chicken

Call Me Jimmy wrote:

EDIT: Anyone have experience with physics engines? Any recommendations?

You can download PhysX from Ageia (sign up required)

Myself and a friend have decided to start making a small game... it's taking a while to get off the ground though, I'm currently flicking through Game Code Complete which uses the above engine

You can get the source for that book here

Messed around with Ogre for a while, but it seemed overkill for what I want. Gonna look at Allegro next, it's apparently good for 2D.

Call Me Jimmy

Skelliser did you have to buy 3DS Max or are you using some trial version?
I haven't gotten into this yet but what exactly did you have to code to get the fps camera working, by that I mean, how much did the engine handle? (I'm very new to the idea of working with an engine.)

joe_chicken thanks for the link, will check it out

skelliser

<snip> E.P.

to get the fps camera up and running look at the tutorials in irrlicht there is one that sets up a fps camera. There is only 10 tutorials and only about six of those you need to get your own level up and running:D
And if ya have a problem head over to the forums there, and the experienced guys will help:D
3ds max is deadly,try out the trial, its also availible elsewhere if you now my drift!!! worried tho it costs $5000!!
gonna switch to blender which is open source when my trial expires. www.blender.org
also irrlicht has a plug in for ageisa http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/tut_physx.html , and i few others.
Havent gotten that far yet with having physics in my level, soon tho!!

Im really enjoying this little adventure i have started!!!:cool:

skelliser

callmejimmy i would recommend startin off slow, do the tutorials, they will give ya a good grasp of the basics, then move up to physic, shaders etc.

If ya jump in at the deep end youl only get confused and frustrated!! headbutting the screen etc.

Call Me Jimmy

skelliser wrote:

callmejimmy i would recommend startin off slow, do the tutorials, they will give ya a good grasp of the basics, then move up to physic, shaders etc.

If ya jump in at the deep end youl only get confused and frustrated!! headbutting the screen etc.

Oh yeah of course. I was thinking tho, regarding the modelling with 3DS Max, once the trial runs out then ye would have to learn a new program wouldn't ye?

Have you had modelling experience of the non-catwalk kind before the iirrlicht tutorials?

Evil Phil

skelliser, read the forum charter before you post again. Anymore instructions on how to bypass the locks on evaluation software and you'll be banned from the forum.

skelliser

ya unless you buy it!!
blender has the same kinda interface tho so should be easy to get into it.

as regard experience i have none!! just trial and error with 3ds max and irrlicht over the last month!!

Call Me Jimmy

Ok well I just started doing the tutorials there and with the reading I've done before I think I'll be able to handle this.

Slightly off-topic but I'm working in Microsoft Visual C++ Express Edition and even tho I have linked the libraries etc. I don't get that sort of 'prototype prompt'. Ye kno... when ye go to type a function and the prototype usually pops up so ye can see what ye should be inputting?

satchmo

Check that you have Intellisense turned on, and that the header files containing those functions prototypes are included in the solution.

Call Me Jimmy

satchmo wrote:

Check that you have Intellisense turned on, and that the header files containing those functions prototypes are included in the solution.

Ah yeah, there's a little button up the top for it, thanks You do any games programming satchmo?

EDIT: Clicked on the pic by mistake, is that your way of 'blowing your own trumpet'?

satchmo

babum, *tish*! Been meaning to change that sig for a while now, but never actually got around to it.

Yeah, I'm a PS3 graphics programmer at Radical .

Call Me Jimmy

satchmo wrote:

Yeah, I'm a PS3 graphics programmer at Radical .

Tres impressive, so it's your responsibility to have the games looking **** hot? Did you complete any small games of your own in your early days?

Everywhere I have ever seen has said that you need at least 2 years experience or a shipped game etc. how the hell does a newbie start out?

Went a bit off topic there but this relates to many people who might be programming games.

satchmo

Call Me Jimmy wrote:

Tres impressive, so it's your responsibility to have the games looking **** hot?

Heh yeah something like that. Well it's really the artists that make the game look **** hot, we just make the tech that lets them do that!

I never really made a full-blown game of my own, but many tech demos and various small programs. Nothing polished enough to release really, just enough for me to learn about different aspects of graphics programming and games in general.

Everywhere I have ever seen has said that you need at least 2 years experience or a shipped game etc. how the hell does a newbie start out?

That's a good question, and ones that gets asked a lot. To be honest there's no good answer... in my case it was a lot of work, a PhD, and a fair bit of luck! Your best bet is to read a lot in your own time, look at every bit of code you can get your hands on (the irrlicht engine is a good start - I don't know how good the code is, but it should at least give you an idea of the basic structure of a game engine), and just keep coding. Don't leave everything to the engine either, write your own apps and try to put together a code base of your own, it's the best way to learn. If you're in college, get out some good books from the library (I like this one, I've heard this one is good too, and these ones are essential) and read them. And if you don't understand something, ask questions. Even if you do, you should still be asking questions!

A good CS degree is essential, and doing a good masters (like the one just starting in TCD), while not required by any means, will help to get you noticed before the other hundreds of CS grads looking for games jobs. I'm not convinced that the purely game-oriented undergrad degrees are up to scratch yet, and companies tend to look at them with skepticism. They generally try to teach students about every aspect of game development, and end up not teaching enough about any one aspect. The big companies (much more likely to hire inexperienced programmers) don't need people that are fairly good at everything, they need people that are very good in one area. But that's just my opinion, and I'm sure there are exceptions out there. That topic probably deserves its own thread.

There are jobs out there that don't require previous experience, but they're hard to get so you have to be ready to work for them. And finally, expect to have to move abroad to get a good first job - I had to move to Vancouver to get mine! But I love it here and it's a great job, so it's ok. There are plenty of good jobs in England too, so you don't have to go far. Hopefully this won't be true in another few years when the industry gets a decent foothold in Ireland (don't get me wrong - there are some great companies in Ireland already, just not many of them, and even fewer hiring) but it'll take a while for that to happen.

Hopefully not too long though - I want to move home again at some stage!

Call Me Jimmy

Great post, thanks for the links!

Yea I've got 2 years under my belt so far in my undergrad degree at dcu, I might do the trinity course as I'de say it would be good fun and would beef up my scrawny C.V!

satchmo wrote:

The big companies (much more likely to hire inexperienced programmers) don't need people that are fairly good at everything, they need people that are very good in one area.

This I find interesting, even though it makes a lot of sense I never thought of this before. I was just concentrating on games in general and maybe building a portfolio of smallish finished games (mainly 2D, moving onto 3D). I'll keep it in mind, it's just I feel like I really would want to be creatively involved in the gameplay aspect of the game, is it programmers that come up with game ideas/gameplay aspects or are there people higher up that tell the programmers exactly what to implement?

Re: learning game programming, I find that when I am learning how to do specific task, like say setting up a window in opengl, I am basically copying the example code and it feels like I wouldn't be able to do it without the book, did you ever feel like that as you were learning graphics programming in the early days?
How did you learn? Did you say read a chapter and then try to implement it based on the theory or did u follow the examples pretty closely too?

Anyway, thanks in advance, I've never talked to anyone in the industry before and I'm pretty intrigued.

skelliser

i think ya never really finish learning how to program, just find ways to improve your efficiency in your code.
im finishing a H.dip in Software design and development in nuig and was thinking of doin that game masters in tcd, but will probably get a run of the mill programming job to get better at programming. I did a physics degree before this so i reckon my understanding of logical approaches to stuff is pretty good ie problem solving.
when i first started to program i did from a book, did all the examples then tried the exercises, its the only way in my opinion. think of it like how you learned maths in school ,you didnt try integreation first!!, my old lecturee in ucc said that if a piece of code works and works well then whats the point in startin again! it was a good point and re-enforces the concept of modularity.
i agree with satchmo read any bit of code that you get ur hands on, if its too complicated ask someone who does know.and then practice, practice, practice. if ya cant find someone try and break down the code, follow where its goin etc.

once you understand classes, structure etc i would say your pretty sorted cause then ya can understand whats goin on, ie once you can actually read the code. Then ya can program in must languages bar the syntax.

back to irrlicht i can know click on a box with the mouse!! now to pick and drag!

satchmo

Call Me Jimmy wrote:

This I find interesting, even though it makes a lot of sense I never thought of this before. I was just concentrating on games in general and maybe building a portfolio of smallish finished games (mainly 2D, moving onto 3D). I'll keep it in mind, it's just I feel like I really would want to be creatively involved in the gameplay aspect of the game, is it programmers that come up with game ideas/gameplay aspects or are there people higher up that tell the programmers exactly what to implement?

Unfortunately no, the actual game ideas & gameplay mechanics are decided by the game designers. For the most part, us programmers just do what we're told! Feature requests come from the designers and the artists, program managers scope the features - work out schedules and whether or not there's time for a particular feature depending on how important it is - and then the programmers get given a list of features that need to be implemented.

Building up a portfolio of games is a great idea. Stick with a game until it's finished and you're happy with it, no matter how small it is. That shows employers that you're able to apply yourself and see things through. Don't worry about specialisation at the moment, just concentrate on coding in general. I was more referring to the game degrees that teach business, audio, graphics, design, etc. etc. If you want to get a job as a gameplay programmer, potential employers aren't going to care how much you know about DSP programming or accounting. They want to see a CS background, solid object-oriented programming, debugging skills and so on.

There's nothing to stop you trying to transfer to more of a design role once you get inside a company, but you need to get in there first. Game design jobs are probably the hardest to come by, since there typically aren't very many designers on a team, and the success of a game has a lot to do with how much fun it is. The designers are pretty much in charge of this, so experience of some sort is a must-have. Starting off on something like level design might be a good way to progress to full-on game design, as anybody can use one of the many level editors out there to make example levels and show off their work. To be honest I don't know much about design, so I won't be much help there.

Re: learning game programming, I find that when I am learning how to do specific task, like say setting up a window in opengl, I am basically copying the example code and it feels like I wouldn't be able to do it without the book, did you ever feel like that as you were learning graphics programming in the early days?
How did you learn? Did you say read a chapter and then try to implement it based on the theory or did u follow the examples pretty closely too?

Don't worry, everybody starts learning by cut-n-paste. The important part is that you don't just take the code and plonk it in your program, but instead understand every part of it that you use. Change it, figure out why it broke when you changed it, and then change it again. Eventually you'll want to add a feature for which there's no example code, so you look up the API and try to figure out how to do that based on what you know about the code you already have, and so on. As long as you try and implement your own stuff and don't stick to doing just what the examples do, your coding will improve.

Call Me Jimmy

skelliser wrote:

back to irrlicht i can know click on a box with the mouse!! now to pick and drag!

great stuff! Although in light of what satchmo has said I think I'm going to leave Irrlicht for the future and stick to learning more fundamental stuff and maybe doing a 2d game in opengl. The reason is, next year we are going on work experience for the summer and I want to have finished games that show that I have a full understanding of how to implement a game so I don't get a job doing something that isn't games.

joe_chicken

Some very good advice satchmo, it's good to hear from someone who is working in the industry.

satchmo

Call Me Jimmy wrote:

great stuff! Although in light of what satchmo has said I think I'm going to leave Irrlicht for the future and stick to learning more fundamental stuff and maybe doing a 2d game in opengl. The reason is, next year we are going on work experience for the summer and I want to have finished games that show that I have a full understanding of how to implement a game so I don't get a job doing something that isn't games.

You might have trouble finding an internship doing games. If you do find one, fantastic, but don't worry too much if you don't. Even if it's a regular programming job you can still learn alot. Top of the list is learning how to work on a team - especially for games, it's very team-oriented. Communicating well with other programmers (and non-programmers like artists & producers, which can be much harder!) is essential.

Another good things to learn is how to find your way around and work with other people's code, as you'll be doing this alot on any game team with a decent existing code base. There are plenty of other things too, like getting used to working with a source control system - we use Perforce, but they're all pretty similar - and dealing with everyday stuff like build configurations and asset management. Finally, learning to stick to deadlines that are handed to you is something that's very important. It's hard to learn this in college (doing 50% of the work the night before doesn't count!), and is really only something that you learn fully in a production environment.