Post Flop Aggression & When to 3bet Streets

dvdfan

Just wanted to get a disucussion going on this, i had been playing with an aggression of under 2 for the last while and my poker was horrible, i was a losing player at 50NL after about 20k hands, i was doing quite well until i started trying to increase my aggression and bsically i was picking horrible spots to be aggressive with bluffs and 4betting with bluffs. This wasnt because i was trying to be a maniac but because people were saying my aggression wasnt high enough and i figured i needed to start 3betting more etc and due to lack of knowledge i didnt know what hands to RR. I was also calling flop bets too much with small PP and MP and BP bad kicker.

So anyway i went to 2+2 asked alot of questions etc reviewed videos of ssnl on cardrunners and it became obvious that bluffing to improve aggression just so i could higher my aggression was ridiculous and so i tried to change my game that id really need a good reason to just flat call a bet like pot control otherwise id just fold or raise. I do this now with any hands that have a reasonable amount of outs like flush draws, OESD, Gutshot & Middle Pair, ocassionally with Middle or Bottom Pair or Top Pair Weak Kicker and sometimes ill 3bet with AT-AK in position on missed flops because alot of the time people will be cbetting and fold or theyll call with there A9 on an 9 high board and ill hit my J,Q,K and i can get value because my hand is slightly disguised.

I also raise for value like TPTK TP good Kicker and 2 pair+. Since then my aggression and game has came on alot and although over a small sample of 5k im in profit and my post flop aggression is 4.5 compared with around 1.8 which it used to be and i feel alot more confident about my game now for the first time in a while.

So my question is about how to play TPTK and the likes of AQ or AJ. Should i raise TPTK for value or is this a bad thing, im thinking ill probably fold out hands id like to keep in for value like AQ-A9 or MP and BP on and A high board and im building a big pot with just 1 pair and if they call im in a bad spot. If i do this with A9 and get called im probably check/folding the turn to any aggression so i can get away from it but with AK it would be harder to get away from it.

Also with the likes of AQ, is this just a NO NO for a 3bet, AK or better is calling and again any other hands will probably fold that im ahead of. I know in these examples its villain dependant too and were not going to be 3betting against a calling station or someone with a 7% PFR that cbets the flop so im basically referring to your average player thats not a calling station.

And what about AJ i might fold out AQ by 3betting but im getting called by alot more hands than are folding so i just like to hear opinions on 3betting these types of hands as i do it occassionaly and i dont think its a great move?

CaptainNemo

I don't know about all your specific questions about hands, but I do know that when I'm playing well I'm usually either folding or raising. Sometimes I get into a calling mood and that's when I can drop a lot of money.

There are some circumstances where a calling strategy can be very profitable, such as if you have position on an aggressive player who bluffs frequently but will fold to a raise.

When you say 3bet, are we talking about limit here? Because if not, then surely we need to know the size of the initial bets and the reraise you're considering making before we can answer the question.

RedJoker

Gonna go through this piece by piece as I got kinda confused on the first read.

dvdfan wrote:

Just wanted to get a disucussion going on this, i had been playing with an aggression of under 2 for the last while and my poker was horrible, i was a losing player at 50NL after about 20k hands, i was doing quite well until i started trying to increase my aggression and bsically i was picking horrible spots to be aggressive with bluffs and 4betting with bluffs.

Bad idea, don't bluff at micro stakes.

dvdfan wrote:

This wasnt because i was trying to be a maniac but because people were saying my aggression wasnt high enough and i figured i needed to start 3betting more etc and due to lack of knowledge i didnt know what hands to RR. I was also calling flop bets too much with small PP and MP and BP bad kicker.

If you had stopped calling flop bets so much it would have raised your aggression factor.

dvdfan wrote:

So anyway i went to 2+2 asked alot of questions etc reviewed videos of ssnl on cardrunners and it became obvious that bluffing to improve aggression just so i could higher my aggression was ridiculous and so i tried to change my game that id really need a good reason to just flat call a bet like pot control otherwise id just fold or raise. I do this now with any hands that have a reasonable amount of outs like flush draws, OESD, Gutshot & Middle Pair, ocassionally with Middle or Bottom Pair or Top Pair Weak Kicker and sometimes ill 3bet with AT-AK in position on missed flops because alot of the time people will be cbetting and fold or theyll call with there A9 on an 9 high board and ill hit my J,Q,K and i can get value because my hand is slightly disguised.

Pot control is over rated.

Try paying more attention to the types of cbets your opponents are making and how often they make them instead of what hands you hold. If somebody who rarely cbets does so it's probably not a good idea to re-raise with TPWK or middle pair. However if a compulsive c bettor makes a half pot size c bet it can be a good idea to raise with overcards as he is likely weak. Another good spot to try this is if a TAG raises preflop and it gets multiway then he may be extra willing to give up his hand to aggression since there are so many people in the pot.

Even better would be not playing marginal hands against a preflop raiser.

dvdfan wrote:

I also raise for value like TPTK TP good Kicker and 2 pair+.

Good stuff, I assume you do the same with overpairs too right.

dvdfan wrote:

Since then my aggression and game has came on alot and although over a small sample of 5k im in profit and my post flop aggression is 4.5 compared with around 1.8 which it used to be and i feel alot more confident about my game now for the first time in a while.

Wow that's higher than mine, calm down you maniac .

dvdfan wrote:

So my question is about how to play TPTK and the likes of AQ or AJ. Should i raise TPTK for value or is this a bad thing, im thinking ill probably fold out hands id like to keep in for value like AQ-A9 or MP and BP on and A high board and im building a big pot with just 1 pair and if they call im in a bad spot.

Player dependent, ideally you want a nice juicy calling station to your right. He limps, you isolate and value bet TP medium kicker all the way to showdown and scoop a nice big pot against his bottom pair.

dvdfan wrote:

If i do this with A9 and get called im probably check/folding the turn to any aggression so i can get away from it but with AK it would be harder to get away from it.

Don't play A9 OOP so.

Again player dependent, if you've got an aggressive player to your left and you c bet A9 on an A high board and get called then your in a tough spot on the turn. I'd often check here for a number of reasons, I may be behind and a bet may only get called by better hands, if I check he may bet worse hands. This can be a tough read and against a pot size bet here I'll usually muck.

Why do you want to get off AK? Your often in great shape here.

dvdfan wrote:

Also with the likes of AQ, is this just a NO NO for a 3bet, AK or better is calling and again any other hands will probably fold that im ahead of.

AQ is fine to 3 bet, try to be in position, like on the BTN against a CO steal. I'll often 3 bet from the blinds against a BTN or CO steal too.

dvdfan wrote:

I know in these examples its villain dependant too and were not going to be 3betting against a calling station or someone with a 7% PFR that cbets the flop so im basically referring to your average player thats not a calling station.

Yep, look at pfr to find the best targets.

dvdfan wrote:

And what about AJ i might fold out AQ by 3betting but im getting called by alot more hands than are folding so i just like to hear opinions on 3betting these types of hands as i do it occassionaly and i dont think its a great move?

Nothing wrong with folding out worse hands, you pick up a raised pot and don't even have to see a flop.

Players who are 3 bet are even more likely to be in fit or fold mode postflop, this way you pick up an even bigger pot when you do c bet. You've shown a lot of strength preflop and continue to show strength on the flop, tough for an opponent to call as they have to be willing to play for their stack to continue at this point.

3 betting is a play you should have in your arsenal but at 50nl you don't need to get carried away too much.

dvdfan

Sorry, only just seen this must have missed it, thanks for the replies especially your detailed one RJ, think im slowly coming to grips with things

Chucky the tree

Is flat call post not considered a bit of a no-no in 6max? I always thought you should be either raising or folding.

dvdfan

Chucky the tree wrote:

Is flat call post not considered a bit of a no-no in 6max? I always thought you should be either raising or folding.

Well thats pretty much what was getting me into trouble, my calling was diluting my agression so i was raising bluffs and 2 outers etc to increase my aggression because everyone was saying the higher the aggression the better and that mine was too low. In heinsight it was stupid if not ridiculous and obviously the reason why i was a losing 50NL player.

There is situations when calling is ok, like when someone min bets and youve a draw, youve JJ on a Q high board or a player is very aggressive and likes to bet alot with marginal hands but "at the end of day" i now see how important it is to have a good reason to call like the ones i mentioned otherwise fold or raise.

BobSloane

Its difficult to just look at PT stats and decide something is too low or too high go about amending it. I probably don't complete from the sb enough but thats because I used to get into trouble with a marginal hand out of position and am not very good at playing from there generally. You shouldn't decide that your aggression factor is too low and decide to raise with bluffs etc to "improve" it. If you're going raising with dodgy holdings, do it in position at least. This should be a bigger factor than having TP weak kicker or middle pair and a draw or whatever.

dvdfan

BobSloane wrote:

Its difficult to just look at PT stats and decide something is too low or too high go about amending it. I probably don't complete from the sb enough but thats because I used to get into trouble with a marginal hand out of position and am not very good at playing from there generally. You shouldn't decide that your aggression factor is too low and decide to raise with bluffs etc to "improve" it. If you're going raising with dodgy holdings, do it in position at least. This should be a bigger factor than having TP weak kicker or middle pair and a draw or whatever.

Yeah i agree, i think it was mostly because i was already slightly aggressive anyway but because i was calling too much i felt that well if everyone else has a higher agression rate they must be raising a bigger range of hands. At the time i taught this was an OK thing to do because i would disguise when i did have a hand but at this level theres too many calling stations and i was left in a position with a marginal hand in a big pot on the turn and this is where the problems were as i was spewing chips this way. Anyway as i said i finally think i understand it now and i understand why im raising not because everyone else is doing at and i want to have a high aggression rate i do it because its the best option and its essential to be a successful player.

Ste05

RedJoker wrote:

Pot control is over rated.

It may be over rated, but it's still hugely important. Deep stack poker isn't all about always raising or folding.

It's kind of difficult to write in depth about this topic because it's basically the whole aspect of post flop Poker, when to fold, call or raise, but one thing I would say is don't get too hung up on your PT stats unless there's something glaringly horrible, e.g. my TA is 2.5 and I would consider myself to be a very aggressive player, so 4.5 is absolutely crazy.

If you're trying to raise your Post Flop aggression, the way to do it is not to begin bluffing more, it's trying to value bet more, don't get tricky with big hands, don't call with marginal hands, do exercise pot control, semi-bluff more, bluff when you can actually represent something believable or it's obvious that your opponent doesn't have what he is representing. Possibly C.Bet more, if you see someone floating alot, fire mutliple C.Bets, begin using delayed C.Bets (i.e. C.Bet the turn) if the flop texture is particularly bad.

EDIT: Have a look at sbrugby's latest CR video where he has a hand (something like QJ on a J high flop) where he mentions Pot Control and explains it well IIRC.

RedJoker

Ste05 wrote:

It may be over rated, but it's still hugely important. Deep stack poker isn't all about always raising or folding.

It's kind of difficult to write in depth about this topic because it's basically the whole aspect of post flop Poker, when to fold, call or raise, but one thing I would say is don't get too hung up on your PT stats unless there's something glaringly horrible, e.g. my TA is 2.5 and I would consider myself to be a very aggressive player, so 4.5 is absolutely crazy.

If you're trying to raise your Post Flop aggression, the way to do it is not to begin bluffing more, it's trying to value bet more, don't get tricky with big hands, don't call with marginal hands, do exercise pot control, semi-bluff more, bluff when you can actually represent something believable or it's obvious that your opponent doesn't have what he is representing. Possibly C.Bet more, if you see someone floating alot, fire mutliple C.Bets, begin using delayed C.Bets (i.e. C.Bet the turn) if the flop texture is particularly bad.

EDIT: Have a look at sbrugby's latest CR video where he has a hand (something like QJ on a J high flop) where he mentions Pot Control and explains it well IIRC.

Yes, raising your AF for the sake of raising it is bad. Of the things you mentioned above I would strongly agree with value betting more and cbetting more, I would also agree with your other points btw.

I've been meaning to get CR for a while now, thanks for reminding me. I should probably watch the video before putting my foot in my mouth but here it goes anyway.

IMO using pot control for the sake of using pot control is bad, just like raising AF for the sake of raising AF is bad. There should be a reason why you do it; I'm in position against a TAG who called my cbet on a dry flop and I've only got middle pair, if I bet the turn he'll call with better hands and fold weaker ones, I check behind here. I've got a maniac with position on me and I have top pair weakish kicker or, for example, 88 on a 10 - 7 - 4 - 2 board, I check here because he may bluff or overplay a weaker hand.

I wouldn't consider this using pot control, it's just a side effect from taking what I consider the best line.

Ste05

RedJoker wrote:

I've been meaning to get CR for a while now, thanks for reminding me. I should probably watch the video before putting my foot in my mouth but here it goes anyway.

Well don't worry about putting your foot in anything, it's not as though what sbrugby talks about in a 10/20 video always applies to 50NL etc. nor that what he says is gospel, but I do find it quite useful if even just for entertainment value and to see what (appears to be) every semi-serious player is doing these days, or at least trying to, LOL...

RedJoker wrote:

IMO using pot control for the sake of using pot control is bad, just like raising AF for the sake of raising AF is bad. There should be a reason why you do it; I'm in position against a TAG who called my cbet on a dry flop and I've only got middle pair, if I bet the turn he'll call with better hands and fold weaker ones, I check behind here. I've got a maniac with position on me and I have top pair weakish kicker or, for example, 88 on a 10 - 7 - 4 - 2 board, I check here because he may bluff or overplay a weaker hand.

I wouldn't consider this using pot control, it's just a side effect from taking what I consider the best line.

Well this is basically what I was talking about too, I certainly wasn't saying use "exercising pot control" as an excuse to call instead of raising, etc. but just that post flop Poker isn't a case of fold or raise, examples like you talk about are exactly what I was trying to get at.

To properly get into this we'd have to open up a huge debate about flop texture, image, how to react to donk bets, etc. etc. there's just sooo much to consider when deciding on what line to take, basically this whole forum and the HH's posted is all about trying to understand those concepts.

So yeah, I think we're basically in complete agreement...

RedJoker

Chucky the tree wrote:

Is flat call post not considered a bit of a no-no in 6max? I always thought you should be either raising or folding.

As long as you have a plan then it's not too bad. E.g. If he checks the turn I'll pick this up with a bet. This guy nevers fires a 2nd barrel so it he bets again than I'm likely beat. or E.g. He may fold if I raise, I might get another barrel out of this maniac on the turn. or E.g. his c bet seems weak, I'll float and pick this up on the turn or E.g. this board is very draw heavy and I have some showdown value, it's unlikely he has a draw here so I can bluff if a scare card hits.

General rules like "don't bluff at micro stakes" and "raise or fold, don't call" and "don't call overbet shoves" are useful because they are easy to learn and are usually the best play. But if you have a good reason not to follow these rules then that's fine.

RedJoker

Ste05 wrote:

So yeah, I think we're basically in complete agreement...

I had a feeling we would be.

RedJoker

BobSloane wrote:

Its difficult to just look at PT stats and decide something is too low or too high go about amending it.

I disagree, if you're not finding leaks with PokerTracker then you're not using it properly.

BobSloane wrote:

I probably don't complete from the sb enough but thats because I used to get into trouble with a marginal hand out of position and am not very good at playing from there generally.

Most people complete from SB far too much, or call raises from the BB too much. This is a leak for the reasons you mentioned above. Position is soooo important.

BobSloane wrote:

You shouldn't decide that your aggression factor is too low and decide to raise with bluffs etc to "improve" it. If you're going raising with dodgy holdings, do it in position at least. This should be a bigger factor than having TP weak kicker or middle pair and a draw or whatever.

Very true, but good play produces good looking stats. If your AF is too low, or your stats aren't good, it can point to leaks in your game. You're not changing your play to improve your AF, you're changing it to improve your play and improve your winrate, the improved AF is just a side effect.

BobSloane

RedJoker wrote:

I disagree, if you're not finding leaks with PokerTracker then you're not using it properly.

Perhaps you misunderstood. I said its difficult - not pointless. Its difficult because you can't just look at a stat and say "ooh thats too low i'll go play a thousand hands now and get that figure moving in the right direction." What is really required is to look through hand histories and identify problems with specific hands,streets and situations. When I had about 10,000 hands at $25NL and $50NL I searched through 2+2 for a thread about 6 max stats. I don't have a link for it but I remember my complete from the small blind was alot lower than this thread suggested it should be. Like the OP here I went about increasing it - pretty much for the sake of it - and it cost me $$ - probably because I'm a station at heart and get into trouble out of position.

The OP here says

"i was doing quite well until i started trying to increase my aggression and bsically i was picking horrible spots to be aggressive with bluffs and 4betting with bluffs".

I was merely pointing out that raising for the sake of making a pokertracker stat more acceptable actually defeats the purpose of PT. As a very great man once said there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

* unrelated topic *
OP your substitution of the word taught for thought in all your posts really grinds my gears. It wrecks my head alot wose than the loose/lose thing

dvdfan

BobSloane wrote:

* unrelated topic *
OP your substitution of the word taught for thought in all your posts really grinds my gears. It wrecks my head alot wose than the loose/lose thing

Lol:o I take it your referring to all of my posts as i only done it once above but it must be a subconsious thing as even when you pointed it out i taught my version was right and im usually a good speller. So ill make an effort to spell it correctly anymore.

.........running spell check..........100% correct:D

BobSloane

dvdfan wrote:

i taught my version was right

Arrrgh my freaking gears!! lol

Imposter

I'll just point out the obvious and tell you that changing your game in some way, no matter how small a change you think it is, costs you money most of the time until you teach yourself how to do it properly/most profitably. You should then use the info that PT has given you and find out why it was costing you money and don't do them things again. Similarly see if you made more money in certain situations and keep doing that.

And one more thing - make sure you have a decent enough sample size before coming to the conclusion that something does or doesn't work.