Gang culture, has it changed for the worst?

gurramok

Just seen this article in a local online forum in Celbridge about gangs of teenagers taking orders from adults running drug deals and the likes.
http://kildare.ie/countycouncil/townsites/forum/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1051&PN=15

victim wrote:

I start this topic as a follow on from the thread on the vandalism of the play ground. The issue of youth crime in Celbridge is much larger than what happens in the playground. I will make a point after some observations so please bare with me.

Business premises in Celbridge have been repeatidly vandilised, with door locks being super glued (Tesco complex) and windows being smashed (Aldi) on a number of occasions. Often the same areas being targeted time and again weekend after weekend. In my own experiance, after seeing the large windows in Aldi being smashed (for the 3rd or 4th time) , I was on the 67a bus. A group of youths on the bus claimed responsibility for doing it previously but argued amoung themsevles as to which "gang" has done it this particular weekend. They were pupils from Salesian collage by the way. So let me just establish that youth gangs do exist locally and compete in levels of destruction.

Private dwellings are graffettied regularly, with my own Mothers house having profanities scrawled upon its garden walls. There is no point in removing it, it just happens again. A neighbour told me that they have identified the culprits who are maintaining the graffitti (yes "maintining" it) but the Garda cannot act for one reason or another.

The above we recognise as youths misbehaving, but it goes deeper.

The playground in Celbridge is also, as has been discussed, be subject to an ongoing campaign of vandalism and graffitti. On one of several occasions there though, I have observed youths smoking, swearing and being dangerously over physical around toddlers. Once, and perhaps most shockingly, the benches in the centre of the playgound were occupied by youths who were involved in a question and answer session about the economics of the drug trade in Celbridge - in broad daylight. I recognised a couple of the faces as being good kids, but by virtue of peer pressure or simple intermixing of social groups were being exposed to this dangerous culture. This is worrying.

Halloween, which is a time I think most people have incresingly negitive experiances, is another bleak area. When the bonefire is lite near the playground it becomes a drunken drug fuelled party by proper nightfall. Garda when called are confronted by sheer numbers, often chanting in unison "oink oink oink". The ritual every year is that young men, NOT YOUTHS, pull their vehicles up in convoy at the edge of the green and begin to launch large fireworks horizontally at youths around the bonefire, hence clearing it. Not only are fireworks illegal, but thir use in this fashion is de facto assault. Yet it happens around the same time on the same day every year. The young MEN who instigate this, drive trades vehicles and boy racer cars and spend their time before "claiming" the bonefire drinking and urinating outside local residents houses. The inroads the Garda have made in keeping the lid on Halloween has yet to even touch this practice and local residents live in fear of standing up or reporting it.

This leads me to my MAIN POINT. You maybe thought I would never get there. In the recent past we have seen groups of youths hanging around outside the Celbridge House and shops, often being verbally intimidating towards locals. This has been taken care of because it was frankly beyond control. HOWEVER what did strike me was the range of age groups present in these "gangs". They ranged from 17 down to around 11 or 12 or younger. This is common in gang culture in places like London and has made gang culture all but incurable. It also exposees kids of a very young age to to an extended range peer activity including drugs and violance - these then becoming the norm and cementing a cultural of silance and secrets that parents, let alone the Gards have been slow to recognise or penetrate. As a youth (I am in my late 30's) I can say it was never normal to incude younger kids in my peer group. Things have changed.

Leading on from that there is a direct link between youth gang culture and even older groups in Celbridge. For instance you may be familier with the Graffitti tag "CRA" scrawlled around the village, this is a group of youths, who I am informed by a teenager take their orders from a man in his fourties or fifties, CRA standing for Celbridge Repulican Army. On top of that I have observed youths running messages, late at night from young men outside bars smoking and openly talking about drug deals.

Much of the group dynamic around youth vandalism and intimidation in Celbridge is linked to the drugs trade in Celbridge, with many of its practicioners bused in on the 67a from the vacinity of Liffy Valley. This means that youth gangs involved in "innocent" wild behaviour are not growing up and hence breaking up, but are becoming useful tools to criminal elements in Celbridge and with links further afield. There is a graduatin of sorts into worse practices, youths gangs simply seving now as an initiation.

My last point is that the writing is on the wall, both litterally and metaphorically. Action must be taken. The Garda must break up these gangs and rather then treat them all the same, investigate which ones have links to criminal activity outside the (old) norms of youth culture. Should the situtaion become any worse I would favour a curfew of 9pm for all children under 18, putting a fire break between the age groups and protecting the youngest from exposure to drink, drugs and violance. It would be appauling if the gang culture that has taken root in parts of Dublin should be allowed to grow and flurish here - because it has already taken root.

What we are seeing are criminal elements farming gangs for their own ends using tried and tested methods that have worked in other cities and countries. The tools and knowledge to fight this type of development exist and must be brought to bare on the current situtaion. I have lived a wide and varied life and have learned who to avoid and recognise the tell tale signs of trouble, but there is no avoiding something on our front doorstep, but recognising it is a first stap to dealing with it.

Excuse for my ignorance, is there really a link between the usual teenage gangs doing teenage stuff and 'taking orders' from the adults forcing them to do it as if on dependency?
It seems a bit odd, always thought that teenagers do their own stuff, go through the vandalism/underage drinking/experimenting with drugs phase/sexual stuff and then some cop on but others graduate to bigger things where they then take their cue from older adults on how to do their worst.

Not the other way around with adults 'directing' the gangs on how to do their worst first!

Maybe its a local thing to celbridge or is it more widespread, has it gone that bad that its organised by teenagers and adults alike in this way?

User45701

Well, ivenever understood gang culture, i am not a reciest but i will find it very hard to watch those "Gang movies" dont get me wrong goodfellas of anything thats good and has people taking in a way i can understand then i am happy.

I know in america these gangs have strange dialog that makes no sense to me i know its supposed to be englih but it annoys me and i have noticed that alllot of irish youth's interaction is becomming alien obsivally you can make out the odd few words hmm i forgot my point....

oh ye gangs i dont like them or understand why they do what they do (well i think its for money) anyway yes when a gang starts one would assume its several friends, some surive some dont and they meet new friends, either way in a few years they need younger blood so they dont look suspicious when selling majuranna. if they someone younger employed to there service it makes sense for 2 reasons.

1. That person gets a certin amount of free smoke depending on the persons own tollerence

2. They people behind it dont get cought because from anyone elses pov its just 2 teenagers talking.

I dont like the guns and the bad drugini tho, to me it seems like nothing but bad PR, there is obsivally proffit in it otherwise they would not do it. I dont get why they bother with the more dangerous drugs, they mean you serve a longer sentence. Dammit i forgot what i was talking about again....

oh well,

Yes
Older people do get teenagers to do there work (selling drigini, tickets ect)

Dragan

Of course the adults in the criminal world will get younger folk to work for them. Think about it logically it makes nothing but sense.

They will be easy to get working for you because many times in the more violent area's of our cities when you’re a kid you need a rep. This is what I noticed when living in one of the harsher area's of our fine country. Your rep is normally based of three things.

1) Who you are, how hard you scrap. Being a known fighter of skill ( or just a violent ****er who wins rows ) will keep you safe from a lot of one on one situations.
2) Who your family are. Having brothers, cousins, uncles who are known knuckleheads will do a lot to keep you save.
3) Who your associated with. A large group of well known friends is one way to stay safe, having it known your working for "Mr Such and Such" is another.

So you have a ready supply of kids who want some safety, some cash, some laughs and some drugs. Perfect.

These kids are generally speaking pretty ****ing fearless when it comes to doing **** and even should they be caught for something they are minors anyway. Sorted.

Hypnotoad

Isn't CRA just a normal graf crew?

Calibos

Ladettes....Maybe not an influential factor in the more serious aspects of gang culture but certainly imo a factor in some of the increase in the point

"This means that youth gangs involved in "innocent" wild behaviour are not growing up and hence breaking up"

made by Quoted OP 'Victim'.

Now I'm not some old fogey or 'Square' young fella who hankers after the days when girls were 'ladies' but even I can see that.....sorry I have to say it "Back in my day" .... we acted the bollix in our early teens but as soon as girls came under our radar, most of our bollix acting stopped. Why?? Because girls were not impressed by it and wouldn't put up with it from us. So we quietened down from about 15yo onwards in order to woo the ladies.

With ladette culture you have the girls not only not being put off the fellas by it, not only condoning it but actually participating in it!!

There is no incentive for young lads today to grow up and stop acting the bollix. They barely grow out of it till their twenties nowadays.

Corruptedmorals

Celbridge Republican Army? LOL. First I've heard of it, what a kip. Though the mad drinking that goes on there made the front page of the Liffey Champion. 'Young people, out of their heads on drink'. And the burning of the plyaground crops up every so often..

ctc_celtic

kids of 17 years in gangs with 11 year old.
that is bad, back in the "gud aul days" (i'm not old) but no self respecting 17yr would let an 11yr hang around with them, it just not COOL:cool:

but that would open up very young kids to things they shouldn't be doing, that would worry me most.
as for the rest, its been going on for years, especially drug dealers getting teens to run the drugs.

AngryBadger

I've been living in Celbridge for the last 9 months and while I often see groups of teens hanging about I've never noticed any of the serious trouble outlined in this post.

That said I'm probably not the type to be selected as a target for hassle, but still, if it was this bad surely I'd notice something?

Although I do think a lot of the OP's observations are probably fairly sound in a broader sense.

Beruthiel

AngryBadger wrote:

I've been living in Celbridge for the last 9 months and while I often see groups of teens hanging about I've never noticed any of the serious trouble outlined in this post.

Take a walk in the Castletown woods some night, that will enlighten you

Stab*City

you people are lucky you live in such a nice place as cellbridge.. maybe if someone provided something for the teenagers to do the might be thinking of other things than causing trouble.. its the previous generation and the one before who have alot to answer for because of the way teenagers have evolved in the last two decades.. "gangs" these are groups of youths.. no organisation, no money, nothing to do.. i pity ireland if we had any organised gangs like north and south america.. 20 and 30,000 members now thats a gang.. i hope when i reach the age of some of the people complaining that i am not in fear of the youth the way some people are.. maybe if parents and gov decided to really do somethin about it instead of spending millions on prisons then in turn the kids would have something to do.. for example every other week where im from (limerick) there is uproar on the limerick post newspaper about these skateboard kids who are hanging around local city spots and skating ledges and steps.. in the process some of the spots are being damaged.. yet a few years ago limerick council was allocated money to build them a skatepark which would stop them having to use city spots.. and guess what 2-3 years down the road no skatepark.. and some of these kids with the right facilities and guidance could compete against the worlds best.. i have seen this with my own two eyes.. and alot of these kids are from under privilidged areas.. this is just one example.. i could go on all day but i wont..

signed
teenage thug turned twentysomething teenager

0ubliette

*cm* wrote:

you people are lucky you live in such a nice place as cellbridge.. maybe if someone provided something for the teenagers to do the might be thinking of other things than causing trouble.. its the previous generation and the one before who have alot to answer for because of the way teenagers have evolved in the last two decades.. "gangs" these are groups of youths.. no organisation, no money, nothing to do.. i pity ireland if we had any organised gangs like north and south america.. 20 and 30,000 members now thats a gang.. i hope when i reach the age of some of the people complaining that i am not in fear of the youth the way some people are.. maybe if parents and gov decided to really do somethin about it instead of spending millions on prisons then in turn the kids would have something to do.. for example every other week where im from (limerick) there is uproar on the limerick post newspaper about these skateboard kids who are hanging around local city spots and skating ledges and steps.. in the process some of the spots are being damaged.. yet a few years ago limerick council was allocated money to build them a skatepark which would stop them having to use city spots.. and guess what 2-3 years down the road no skatepark.. and some of these kids with the right facilities and guidance could compete against the worlds best.. i have seen this with my own two eyes.. and alot of these kids are from under privilidged areas.. this is just one example.. i could go on all day but i wont..

signed
teenage thug turned twentysomething teenager

Oh boo-****ing-hoo, i dont have fancy public amenities so im going to go vandalise a building. My heart ****ing bleeds. I grew up in a not great area with sod all to do yet i never decided to vandalise the place because im 'bored'. Im sure alot of thes e'under priveliged' kids go home from a hard days harassing people to a playstation 2 and a big screen TV.
Oh and the celbridge republican army? Excuse me while i LOL the sky.

SimpleSam06

Mandatory chemical castration for young offenders and people growing up in rough areas, thats the ticket. If its reversible by age 25, I'd call that a bonus. Eunuchs FTW!


You think I'm kidding?

Beruthiel

*cm* wrote:

maybe if someone provided something for the teenagers to do the might be thinking of other things than causing trouble

lol
Seriously, that is such a cop out of an answer.
The real truth is, the parents don't give a damn.
My parents would have killed me if I'd gotten up to anything, not that I ever had time to, because during my teenage years they kept me well and truly busy with work.
Kids today have more than any other generation before them, even the poor ones. It's never enough. A small example of that is when I was living in an apartment near Ballyfermot, a gang of 10 to 14 year olds would spend their time sitting on the wall throwing glass bottles at passing cars. I lost the rag with them one day and asked if they had no books to read or playstations to play with, they had apparently, but found this to be more 'fun'.
You need a licence to get a dog, when I become ruler of the world, you'll also need one to have a child.

gurramok

Beruthiel wrote:

Take a walk in the Castletown woods some night, that will enlighten you

Is it really that bad there?

My bro lives in the Walled Gardens, he never mentioned it once, maybe didn't want to publicise it!

Beruthiel wrote:

The real truth is, the parents don't give a damn.
My parents would have killed me if I'd gotten up to anything, not that I ever had time to, because during my teenage years they kept me well and truly busy with work.

Maybe parents are directing their kids to intimidate?...have heard this side of the argument before.

lemansky

If somebody were to have attended a secondary school in Celbridge at some point in their lives <_<......>_> then on a Monday morning,actually no, on any morning, they could hear the tales being told of the fun that certain elements had in the playground the night before,what exactly happened to the stash of fireworks that they had, who had a knife pulled on them and who did the pulling of said weapon, who got beaten up, the list goes on. As has been said before, the range of ages is incredible. There would be talking people in sixth year talking about how some little guy in forst got up to the worst of what they did at that evening and at that young age you could already tell that they were the ones who would be ultimately kicked out of the school, for being excessively naughty.........

Call Me Jimmy

The 'we the people have let these youngsters down' argument is absolute bullsh!t. It angers me to think that some people think that. Each scumbag's parents let them down by being focking douchebags. I even hesitate to say that because it's possible for someone to have scumbag parents and go on to be a decent person, so if it's possible for one then it's possible for all.

What's scary are those under 16 scumbags because there is absolutely 100% nothing that can be done about them.

ROCKMAN

*cm* wrote:

you people are lucky you live in such a nice place as cellbridge.. maybe if someone provided something for the teenagers to do the might be thinking of other things than causing trouble.. its the previous generation and the one before who have alot to answer for because of the way teenagers have evolved in the last two decades.. "gangs" these are groups of youths.. no organisation, no money, nothing to do.. i pity ireland if we had any organised gangs like north and south america.. 20 and 30,000 members now thats a gang.. i hope when i reach the age of some of the people complaining that i am not in fear of the youth the way some people are.. maybe if parents and gov decided to really do somethin about it instead of spending millions on prisons then in turn the kids would have something to do.. for example every other week where im from (limerick) there is uproar on the limerick post newspaper about these skateboard kids who are hanging around local city spots and skating ledges and steps.. in the process some of the spots are being damaged.. yet a few years ago limerick council was allocated money to build them a skatepark which would stop them having to use city spots.. and guess what 2-3 years down the road no skatepark.. and some of these kids with the right facilities and guidance could compete against the worlds best.. i have seen this with my own two eyes.. and alot of these kids are from under privilidged areas.. this is just one example.. i could go on all day but i wont..

signed
teenage thug turned twentysomething teenager

Fair play to you , I am voluntary youth leader , and am sorry for some of the dumb ass replie's you received here, People come on here day in day out and run down young people yet when a young person comes on here and airs their valid opinions and views they are instantly jump on , It's no wonder that a lot of teenagers have lost respect for so called adults, maybe if we showed some respect and listen to views we may get some back .

Terry

AngryBadger wrote:

I've been living in Celbridge for the last 9 months and while I often see groups of teens hanging about I've never noticed any of the serious trouble outlined in this post.

That said I'm probably not the type to be selected as a target for hassle, but still, if it was this bad surely I'd notice something?

Although I do think a lot of the OP's observations are probably fairly sound in a broader sense.

Celbridge is in Kildare and not Dublin.
The Dublin accents are store bought.

Aside from that, the place is a hole and best avoided.

Beruthiel

gurramok wrote:

My bro lives in the Walled Gardens, he never mentioned it once, maybe didn't want to publicise it!

Me too - near the woods.... if his house is not there he wouldn't notice it - he should take a walk in there sometime - they've made a total mess of a lovely little place.

um7y1h83ge06nx

*cm* wrote:

you people are lucky you live in such a nice place as cellbridge.. maybe if someone provided something for the teenagers to do the might be thinking of other things than causing trouble.. its the previous generation and the one before who have alot to answer for because of the way teenagers have evolved in the last two decades.. "gangs" these are groups of youths.. no organisation, no money, nothing to do.. i pity ireland if we had any organised gangs like north and south america.. 20 and 30,000 members now thats a gang.. i hope when i reach the age of some of the people complaining that i am not in fear of the youth the way some people are.. maybe if parents and gov decided to really do somethin about it instead of spending millions on prisons then in turn the kids would have something to do.. for example every other week where im from (limerick) there is uproar on the limerick post newspaper about these skateboard kids who are hanging around local city spots and skating ledges and steps.. in the process some of the spots are being damaged.. yet a few years ago limerick council was allocated money to build them a skatepark which would stop them having to use city spots.. and guess what 2-3 years down the road no skatepark.. and some of these kids with the right facilities and guidance could compete against the worlds best.. i have seen this with my own two eyes.. and alot of these kids are from under privilidged areas.. this is just one example.. i could go on all day but i wont..

signed
teenage thug turned twentysomething teenager

I call BS as well.

I grew up in a quiet country area, f**k all amenities. We just had to content ourselves with walking the dog and cycling around the area.

If we acted the pr!cks like these crowd are doing, our parents would have hammered us, and if we persisted p!ssing off the locality, a trusty shotgun could have been pointed in our direction by an irate farmer.

And I'm not an old fogey before people say it, I'm 24.

Corruptedmorals

Yeah, Castletown Woods are awful. I've always hated the fecking layout of Celbridge, it annoys me. Long, bent street, and estates are spread out on about 7 different roads.

gurramok

Beruthiel wrote:

Me too - near the woods.... if his house is not there he wouldn't notice it - he should take a walk in there sometime - they've made a total mess of a lovely little place.

I'm not sure of the layout of the place as i've only been there maybe 5 times a year but he just lives at the back, passed a road called the elms and just past that gazebo that was knocked down.(maybe about 10 houses each side past it, without giving his hse number on the net, the hse number is between 90 and 110 )

Just up from him as you go further on northwards(i think as you come in from the big gates near the village as you starting point) is what looks like those woods, the irony is that they look so peaceful with a bit of greenery on your doorstep with me wishing...ah, if only i could live here, kick ball with my nephews, have picnics with the missus..lol!!

Beruthiel

gurramok wrote:

I'm not sure of the layout of the place as i've only been there maybe 5 times a year but he just lives at the back, passed a road called the elms and just past that gazebo that was knocked down.(maybe about 10 houses each side past it, without giving his hse number on the net, the hse number is between 90 and 110 )

Well he must live on the left hand side, cos if his garden backed into the woods, he'd know all about it.

Just up from him as you go further on northwards(i think as you come in from the big gates near the village as you starting point) is what looks like those woods, the irony is that they look so peaceful with a bit of greenery on your doorstep with me wishing...ah, if only i could live here, kick ball with my nephews, have picnics with the missus..lol!!

That's a great place to go for a walk along by the river.
Apart from the hassle in the woods, Celbridge is a great place to live and after spending six years living near Ballyfermot, it's fantastic.

WindSock

What sort of Gangs exist here? Do they have names and such and wear colours etc? The only ones I know of, are ones that try to affiliate themselves with the IRA. Or are you mostly referring to a group of teenagers with graffiti and booze? Anyways, gangs like the former exist because of a breakdown in family life, so the kids feel more accepted in their new 'family' and are pressured to perform tasks that mostly involve breaking the law, many times leading to violence to keep the leader happy. Some even get involved because their parent/s were or are in a certain gang, and it has been ingrained in their heads from the day they were born. Many grow out of it by their twenties, but unfortunatly there are some that won't, breed and are locked up for half of their lives then have various sprogs running around, carrying on their legacy. I agree to an extent that there are some environmental factors that has people like this, it is a minor contributing factor though. If you grow up in a concrete kip, why bother appreciating anything? Why should people that live in nice places have a nice place, I'm gonna bomb the fcuk out of it with my tagging blah blah blah and whatever macho shite they can do to impress each other.

AnonoBoy

User45701 wrote:

Well, ivenever understood gang culture, i am not a reciest but i will find it very hard to watch those "Gang movies" dont get me wrong goodfellas of anything thats good and has people taking in a way i can understand then i am happy.

Pot - Kettle.

Seriously - I have trouble understanding what you've typed there.

ladylorenzo

0ubliette wrote:

Oh boo-****ing-hoo, i dont have fancy public amenities so im going to go vandalise a building. My heart ****ing bleeds. I grew up in a not great area with sod all to do yet i never decided to vandalise the place because im 'bored'. Im sure alot of thes e'under priveliged' kids go home from a hard days harassing people to a playstation 2 and a big screen TV.
Oh and the celbridge republican army? Excuse me while i LOL the sky.

Oubliette, who said anything about vandalising buildings and harrassing people??All *cm* was saying was that if kids who have an interest in things like skateboarding and other such sports had the proper facilities, then they might be able to improve their skills and would also not be forced to go to areas which are suitable for skateboarding but not built for that purpose.

If anyone has a chip on their shoulder here it appears to be you. *cm* clearly stated that these kids, some of which come from underprivileged areas, are out trying to engage in activites, making friends and finding alternative things to do with their time and not sitting at home watching tv and playing the playstation. Why is it that you and others like you in this country find it so difficult to give skateboarders a chance?? Would it be better if they spent their time going around harassing people, getting drunk or vandalising buildings on purpose?? Skateboarding is as much a sport as football or hurling but you dont see footballers/hurlers having to sit down and on a regular basis write letters to local authorities begging them to build even the most basic skatebording facilities.

Give these guys some credit where credit is due. They're just kids trying to play a sport. Give them facilites and they wont be forced to use public areas. Simple.

PDD

Im sorry to have to say this but Gangs are like a cancer and at they will continue to grow untill their is an effective means to remove them from society which unfortunately I do not see ever happening. The biggest problem with the "gangs" is the parents and the lack of a deterent. There is no effective legislation in place for deterents and it is to be enforced by a under-funded, under-staffed, under-equiped and almost backward police force that has no idea how to deal with crime as a part of a 21st century society not to mention the fact that its threadbare integrity and appauling lack of internal investigation or policing.

There is no fear in youth gangs, they know that first of all that Joe Soap wont stop them. A half a dozen of them together and you will intimidate most people. If anything happens they will play the victim of the situation esp when they are confronted by ignorant parents and they know that they are under-age so there is only a slap on the wrists and no real repercussions. There should be measure such as fining the parents (and I mean in the thousands not a few hundred euro) , tagging of offenders to effect house arrest and forced community service hours in the thousands.

A majority of these gangs members come from middle-class homes and whos parents are oblivious to what their kids get up and do not keep them busy with chores or activities etc. Then when a neighbour knocks on their door to inform them of lil Johnnys disgraceful behaviour they dont belive it not even when lil Johnny is dragged home by the police - I mean it must have been the little gouriers that he hangs around with that made him do it.

thebman

Ellianna Colossal Antelope wrote:

I call BS as well.

I grew up in a quiet country area, f**k all amenities. We just had to content ourselves with walking the dog and cycling around the area.

If we acted the pr!cks like these crowd are doing, our parents would have hammered us, and if we persisted p!ssing off the locality, a trusty shotgun could have been pointed in our direction by an irate farmer.

And I'm not an old fogey before people say it, I'm 24.

Same here but I can understand where they are coming from. You can't provide no services and say, we had none.

You provide whatever services you can as in all likelyhood, it'll reduce the amount of scumbag kids. If you give them a few different options, people will find something they are interested in.

Personally I liked computer games and cycling and that's what I did with my youth. I think if you provided more like Skateboarding etc... then you'll get people into these activities.

You can't just blame bad anything. People always have the choice to read a book or do something other than vandalise other peoples crap.