Church music, ancient, modern, and whatever else.

Doshea3

Anyone here interested in church music?—I mean primarily Gregorian chant, polyphony and such, but also some 19th-century stuff and modern-day music, excluding American-imported "folk group"-type music. (I don't have anything against this type of music personally, but it doesn't fall into the category I'm talking about here.)

The reason I bring this up is because at the moment myself and the parish priest of the church where I work as organist are trying to make some new arrangements regarding music. One of my ideas was a small group of singers who would sing music like I have outlined above, a mixture of "traditional" church music and more popular hymnody sung to a high standard, probably on Sunday evening. The church has excellent acoustics for such music, and so I believe it is an ideal parish in which to try to (re)introduce music like this.

The reason I post here is because I'm interested to find out if anyone else is interested in singing this type of music. I'm not quite sure where I'll draw my singers from if we do go ahead with this idea. I won't need very many—preferably a small number of fluent enthusiastic people (who can either read music or who would be willing to learn), not necessarily outstanding singers themselves (though that would be great, of course), but with a genuine interest and willingness to learn new music.

Also, I'm interested to find some instrumental players to have on reserve, as it were—possibly a violinist (or two!), a cellist, and maybe a treble recorder player and an oboist and others. The requirements again are not necessarily a professional standard, just good fluency (good sight-reading, or at least ability to learn fairly easy music quickly) and enthusiasm.

If anyone is interested, or if you have any questions, do please send me a private message. We'll be based in the Dublin 9 area mainly (though I myself live in Swords), and will probably be singing at a church service perhaps every second week, with a regular practice, and possibly involved in occasionally singing at funerals (paid, perhaps) and some special occasions also.

Apart from that, what are people's opinions on the state of church music? Would you rather hear Palestrina and Victoria than the tambourine-tapping tunes you hear in some churches, or does it matter to you?

I know that personally I'd be turned off a particular church if the standard of music was poor. Not that I have anything against any particular type of church music when it's played and sung well, though I do have my own personal preferences, of course. I feel that apart from being too politicized (arch-traditionalists versus those who won't hear a word of Latin, both musicians and clergy), music in churches is not given enough attention anymore. Small parishes rarely have good choirs anymore (though there are a few notable exceptions), and little effort is made to encourage children to join in the singing.

I myself am not an overly devout person, but I share the belief of many educators that the local church is the best place to start musical education. Perhaps we'd have more young people appreciating classical music if parents tried to encourage their children to participate in the musical life of the church rather than forcing them straight into piano or violin lessons they have no interest in. If they learn to love singing first, then they may naturally move on to the piano or whatever other instrument, and even if they don't stick with the instrument for long they will have acquired a grounding in basic musical skills and music appreciation for life.

Perhaps I'm just philosophizing, or does anyone else have similar views or experiences?

funky penguin

I personally adore choral/church music. Especially early Gregorian chant. To be honest, its one of the only forms of 'classical' singing that I find appealing (not a big fan of opera, musicals, etc).

I'm not a religious person. I think its a vital element in humanity, but not really for me (at the moment). Its the same for alot of other people, and unfortunately, I find that some cannot seperate the church from this glorious genre of music (I know, it sounds paradoxical), and end up missing out on it.

As you have said, however, it can be a valuable building block in a childs musical education. Some may argue that forcing the church upon a child is wrong, even if your intentions are well founded. But I grew up as a Sunday worshipper, and have grown into a man with a healthy respect and understanding for religion, even if I don't follow any one in particular.

I personally went straight into grades and loved them, but I realise this isn't the same for everybody, so I applaude what you are trying to assemble, especially your mixing of traditional and popular.

Good luck!

Doshea3

funky penguin wrote:

I personally adore choral/church music. Especially early Gregorian chant. To be honest, its one of the only forms of 'classical' singing that I find appealing (not a big fan of opera, musicals, etc).

I'm not a religious person. I think its a vital element in humanity, but not really for me (at the moment). Its the same for alot of other people, and unfortunately, I find that some cannot seperate the church from this glorious genre of music (I know, it sounds paradoxical), and end up missing out on it.

As you have said, however, it can be a valuable building block in a childs musical education. Some may argue that forcing the church upon a child is wrong, even if your intentions are well founded. But I grew up as a Sunday worshipper, and have grown into a man with a healthy respect and understanding for religion, even if I don't follow any one in particular.

I personally went straight into grades and loved them, but I realise this isn't the same for everybody, so I applaude what you are trying to assemble, especially your mixing of traditional and popular.

Good luck!

Cheers funky penguin.

While I think forcing a faith onto a child is wrong to a certain extent, the non-religious hype over first communions and such removes the child's own reasoning to choose (though this is probably the intention, considering the Catholic Church never really supported the idea of reasoning to choose anything...). I think that parents should introduce their child to a church (even if they have no faith themselves, though this is probably wishful thinking), and if they don't like it, at least they have some experience on which to base their rejection of religion. The prevailing attitude of "let them choose when they're older" just leads to total religious and (more worryingly) spiritual apathy.

Anyway, back to music before I go on any further tangents...with regard to singing, I'm the same as yourself, mostly. While I like opera, I find choral music most appealing. Unfortunately my efforts are often hampered by not knowing where to start, or simply by lack of interest from those within the church. (For example, at a church which shall remain nameless where I was once organist, I was forced to direct some very mediocre music whilst the priest charitably rejected my enthusiastic overtures to form other musical groups.) Perhaps now that the Pope is allowing the Tridentine Mass once more we might see a revival of interest in Gregorian chant and polyphony. Of course, I know this might be serious wishful thinking, but regardless I hope that some day I'll be able to realise my wish to lead quality singing which will both inspire and enrich people's appreciation of music.

Piste

Aw I love this type of music, like gregorian plainchant etc. I'd so be up for this!

talkingclock

Meself is having more of a decade of experience in church music. I am German and we have a very rich culture at home regarding church music. So i was singing in quite a number of different choirs with different repertoires and styles (going from double quartet up to mass choirs for oratorios).

I fancy more the late renaissance up to the high baroque music (Like di Lassus, Schuetz, Bach etc) then the modern "gospel style" stuff.

Me personally can't make any fun out of gregorian chant. Been there, done that...

TBH, I miss my music here in Ireland!

tSubh Dearg

I'm a member of a Protestant church and I've found that there tends to be a lot more music in the Anglican churches especially, compared to the Catholic one.

For example, our church has a choir that tries to do a bit of everything from plainchant psalms to more modern hymns in order to include as much of the congregation as possible.

There is also a children's choir that is run through the Sunday School and on special occasions, such as Harvest, Christmas and Easter, they get up and sing their song. It's really nice to see them enjoying themselves singin "Round Orange" at Christmas.

Regarding the music itself, I personally quite like the old chants as I studied it quite a bit at college, including how to transpose old scores into modern notation (not a skill I've yet found a lot of use for I'm afraid). I do think it's a pity that a lot of people will reject it out of hand as "religious" and therefore not something they're into without even listening to it first.

Doshea3

tSubh—I agree with you regarding the music in Anglican churches being better than in most Catholic churches. I think it's such a shame that despite the huge Catholic musical heritage (Gregorian chant, Palestrina, etc.) you hear such little good music in Catholic churches nowadays. You're more likely to hear what the parish priest aptly described to me as "music with twanging guitars" (stuff like modern American compositions and such) than really good well-performed music.

I'm also the organist in a Presbyterian church, and while we don't really have a dedicated choir, the standard of singing is quite good and we mostly sing traditional hymns. As you can see, I'm not denomination-specific as a musician—you really have to branch out if you want to find music that you're interested in playing. I worked for over two years in a Catholic church near where I live playing absolutely terrible music, and it wasn't until I was asked to work in the Presbyterian church that I was able to change over to playing music I actually had an interest in. Though I continued on for a while in a different capacity in the Catholic church, I eventually moved to another Catholic church (the one I'm in now) where they were more open to more traditional music as well as good modern compositions.

Though I was invited by the priest to organise some more musical groups, I'm not sure how it will work out now. Personally, as I said, I'm not denomination-specific when it comes to music—I've done some deputising in an Anglican church (as well as a course in choir training run by the Church of Ireland) and there I found some of the best church music I've come across yet. I suppose in the future I'd be open to working in an Anglican church, as out of all the Christian traditions I've experienced theirs is the one I can identify most with (both the liturgical and the musical sides).

talkingclock—I've heard all right that there's a great church music tradition in Germany, Switzerland, Austria and that area. I'd love to visit there sometime to see what the music is like for myself. A friend of a friend is a church organist in Denmark (I think), and that's his main job—he has so many duties and is so well paid that he doesn't need to do any more work on the side.

tSubh Dearg

One point I meant to add to my original post is that I'm not against modern choral music but there is one man who's compositions I find a tend repetitive and that's John Rutter. I don't know if anyone else has come across him but I just find a lot of his choral music and arrangements to sound very similar.

I think I could probably spot a Rutter piece at 100 yards now!

Doshea3

I like some modern choral music, and while there are one or two Rutter pieces that I think are nice, in general his music wouldn't appeal to me. I can see just why you'd spot a Rutter at 100 yards.

A lot of 20th-century composers have written really interesting, unusual church music, which is not odd for the sake of it. Poulenc comes to mind. I love his Gloria, his Stabat Mater and also his Litanies to the Black Virgin.

tSubh Dearg

I got to perform Poulenc's Stabat Mater last year with the RTE Philharmonic. I really loved it, so much so that I left it on my iPod where I had it for learning by osmosis.

It's a great piece. I don't hate modern church music by any stretch, I just get a bit bored of Rutter (our church organist rather likes some of his music)

cornbb

I don't know a ton about church music but I'm a big fan of Arvo Part, so I think his work deserves a mention - I've mostly heard his secular stuff, but I've also listened to Berliner Messe, a mass for choir and organ. Very fine music indeed, well worth checking out.

http://www.amazon.com/I-Am-True-Vine-Arvo/dp/B00003Z9U9

talkingclock

doshea, there is a great tradition indeed. there are two main reasons:

a) the protestants. Luther said the "word" is the centre of the church service. therefore sung music is a crucial part of worship. i myself i am lutheran and singing was for me always kind of service, expressing my believe
b) all the small counties we had 250 yearts ago were in a competition. every prince, every earl wanted to have the best court music and every court had his own musicians, theatre etc. so there has been a big productivity

Doshea3

talkingclock—Thanks for the explanation. I never thought before how the competition between states would have influenced music, that's interesting. The Lutheran churches really have a great musical tradition, what with Bach and his contemporaries particularly.

cornbb—I've actually meant to listen to Part for a while now...I'm not a fan of "minimalism" as such, but I hear that "holy minimalism" is a totally different thing altogether! Anything of his I've heard on Lyric is pretty good. I'll keep a look out for his stuff.

tSubh—Ah, I didn't realise you were in the RTÉ choir. I'd love to join actually, and for the last couple of years I've debated whether or not to go to the auditions, which have passed me by again. The only thing that worries me is that I'm not a very well-trained singer (I gave up singing lessons years ago to concentrate on piano and organ more), though I have a strong enough voice and good sight-singing. What's the standard like, and how tough is the schedule?

tSubh Dearg

You could probably still audition,I'm guessing your male and we always need more Tenors & Basses (apologies if you're not!)

Our choral director appears to be a bit less stringent when it comes to male singers (what with there being so few around), so long as you have a good tone and some sight reading ability you'd probably get in.

We practice every Wednesday, with a weekend away in September to get us started, which is as much about socialising as the music

We do around 3 - 6 concerts a year and in the week run up to the concert there would be extra rehearsals. If the concert was on a Friday we would have a piano rehearsal with the conductor usually on the Sunday before and then orchestra rehearsals on the Wedneaday & Thursday with a brief run through sticky bits just before the concert on the Friday.

This year we're doing quite a lot of interesting bits and pieces including Orff's Carmina Burana.

Earlgrey

Sadly I live too remotely and travel too often to be useful on the practical side, but I warmly endorse all the positive comments about the wonderful and often neglected range of music which can provide such strong support to the range of motives and needs which take people to church. I add my own disappointment at the general state of music in many Catholic churches in Ireland (and beyond). I can see the 'participatory' argument for the tambourines: but I'd prefer Palestrina and Victoria every time, and no music in preference to some of the offerings. I was in Canterbury Cathedral last week for a commemoration service. It began with Palestrina. Incomparable. I agree also with the comments about Avro Part and Poulenc's Stabat Mater: good stuff. I can leave John Rutter's music alone, though he;s certainly written some catchy stuff; and while Carmina Burana has a good appeal, I find, having worked on it some years ago (one of the piano parts in an arrangement for a couple of pianos and asssorted timps and I'm almost certain that I've sung it too), I tend to leave it well alone these days. Good luck with the initiative in D9.

Doshea3

Cheers Earlgrey.

tSubh—Thanks for the info, I might consider it still if that's the case. (And I am male. )

il gatto

I think it's a pity that we're subjected to folk mass' and a small canon of well worn hymns. I would love to hear the likes of Bach in a church. It would be something which might get me to attend more often. I like going to Anglican services (my mothers side of the family are CoI). The singing is often brutal, but there's a larger range of hymns and it all feels more "authentic", for want of a better word, than jazzed up gospel music with tamborines, harmonicas and out of tune acoustic guitars.:(

Doshea3

In the Catholic church where I play the organ, we've sung the same opening and closing hymns for the past three weeks as per the priest's request. It's commonly said that Catholics tend not to sing, and so I suppose we can't hope for a large variety of hymns for this reason. However, I filled in in an Anglican church last Sunday and the singing was definitely much better, despite the small congregation. (The same can be said for the Presbyterian church in which I regularly play, where the small congregation sings always with gusto.)

I agree with what you said about the out of tune guitars, il gatto—and so does the priest in my Catholic church, who wants me to get some "good instruments" for the church. However, this still isn't what we need...a miniature orchestra is no use if you don't have good singers...

talkingclock

il gatto wrote:

I would love to hear the likes of Bach in a church.

Back in the 50s and even 60s in Germany Catholic organists refused to play Bach - for the reason that he was Lutheran. Imagine! Only works of devoted Catholics were played

It has changed now, though.

Earlgrey

Some years ago I sang in a scratch group put together to explore the range of sacred music. We sang mainly at Sunday evening masses in a large Dominican Priory in London, which had wonderful acoustics. It was a wonderful experience: the barest of rehearsal, a five-century range of repertoire with tremendous tension and enjoyment every time ... until the Prior got it into his head that the music was 'not liturgical' (ie not the standard musical settings of the mass) and banned the group; and that was that. I think he was a particularly difficult man and I understood at the time that his decision was not universally welcomed by his clergy. I suspect that this reflected underlying personality politics among the clergy attached to the church, and that the Prior saw in the music some sort of challenge to his authority: he wasn't 'in charge' of it. He disappointed a great many people, and the priory was the poorer for his decision. I wonder whether, in his terms, he thought God was the more appropriately worshipped as a result. Beware the disgruntled cleric.

fatherdougalmag

In case you haven't come across it, the Choral Wiki is a good resource for church music. I did time in one of the cathedral choirs in the city (Dublin) and I've been reminiscing through this website. They typically have the sheet music and an MP3, MIDI or Sibelius file for each piece.

440Hz

Has any of this kicked off yet?

Mostly been a reader on this forum rather than a posted, but now that I have a bit more spare time Im getting back to my music. Im not based in Dublin but sing alot of this type of music and would be very interested in getting involved, happy to travel up (prob not on a weekly basis) but enough to get involved.

Been ages since had a chance to do anything along these lines. Used to work with the choir in St Martins (London) for a bit, something very moving about ancient religious works!

Doshea3

Thanks for the interest! Unfortunately, due to a priest shortage, the Mass that the group was planned for is no longer. The parish priest now wants me to organise a different type of group for the morning Mass, though he doesn't seem to know what sort of group he's talking about. He wants a trumpet, a clarinet and some other instruments, but no "twanging guitars". I don't think he's realized that church music primarily involves singing...

banquo

Hey Doshea3, I actually live in Dublin 9. You might know me as the chirpy 21yo newsagent in Matt's beside the Viscount.

I play the piano and am a damn sight better than most at arranging pieces, especially at the last minute. If there's any services I can offer, let me know!

Very glad to help, it sounds like a lot of fun.

Doshea3

Hey Banquo, I'll look out for you if I'm ever in Matt's...don't think I've ever been in there, as when I'm in those parts I'm usually down further in Drumcondra.

You sound like my kind of guy when it comes to playing the piano...I play myself but I've yet to come across someone else able to sightread/arrange at sight well, so I'll keep you in mind next time I need someone.