Another first time marathon runner query!

bobbysands81

I'll be trying to do Hal Higdon's Novice marathon running guide.

http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/Mar00novice.htm

However, I'm 2 weeks late starting it!

Can anyone tell me how I should top and tail it so that I can still do it. I'm a novice so will need all the build up work that I can possibly get so I'd be a bit apprehensive about jumping straight into Week 3.

hunnymonster

Have you done any running before? I would be inclined not to cut anything towards the end because it is important to get a couple of long runs under your belt. Maybe it's ok to shorten teh taper by a day or two but if you have been doing some running to date, I would be more inclined to jump in now at week 3 and take if from there.

bobbysands81

hunnymonster wrote:

Have you done any running before? I would be inclined not to cut anything towards the end because it is important to get a couple of long runs under your belt. Maybe it's ok to shorten teh taper by a day or two but if you have been doing some running to date, I would be more inclined to jump in now at week 3 and take if from there.

Cheers mate, just started week 5 and so far so good - finding it tiring and not sleeping great but have been okay with the running which I'm quite surprised with as I have never really run before.

Had a 9 mile run last Sat and I really struggled to finish it as I wanted to do it without walking at all but I got there in the end - I was at my limit though and I couldn't have done another 100 metres even if my life depended on it.

--amadeus--

bobbysands81 wrote:

Had a 9 mile run last Sat and I really struggled to finish it as I wanted to do it without walking at all but I got there in the end - I was at my limit though and I couldn't have done another 100 metres even if my life depended on it.

You're probably running too fast - a classic mistake that we all make. You should be running at least 60 - 90 secs per mile slower than PMP (Planned Marathon Pace) on your LSRs (Long Slow Runs). For example my PB is 3:33 (8 min / miles) and I'm planning sub 3:15 so my LSRs are at an average of 9 min / mile pace. There are loads of reasons for this, put "Long slow Run" into Google and you'll se ethe science behind it.

onekeaneo

--amadeus-- wrote:

You're probably running too fast - a classic mistake that we all make. You should be running at least 60 - 90 secs per mile slower than PMP (Planned Marathon Pace) on your LSRs (Long Slow Runs). For example my PB is 3:33 (8 min / miles) and I'm planning sub 3:15 so my LSRs are at an average of 9 min / mile pace. There are loads of reasons for this, put "Long slow Run" into Google and you'll se ethe science behind it.

Can you help me out here. Firstly I’m not doubting the idea behind this at all but I’ve never really understood this point to be honest. I’m training for Dublin (my first Marathon). Honestly don’t know my split times per mile (sorry I’m a novice) but I ran 21.5 miles on Sunday in 3hrs 10 mins. What would that put me on course for a 3 hr 50min / 4 hrs or something like that?
I had noticed in the past when I was running say 15milers 18 milers I was completely shot after it (couldn’t run another step). Obviously I was setting out to fast from the start. When I made a conscious effort to slow myself down which I found surprisingly hard to do by the way and I was ok with the longer mileage.
I here lots of people saying that the single biggest reason for people not finishing the Marathon is they set out to fast at the start and then come the later stages they are shot. So with this in mind my plan was to run it basically at the pace I run my long runs now. For fear of the same happening to me. Is your advice for the more experienced runner or is it for all of us?

hunnymonster

onekeaneo wrote:

Can you help me out here. Firstly I’m not doubting the idea behind this at all but I’ve never really understood this point to be honest. I’m training for Dublin (my first Marathon). Honestly don’t know my split times per mile (sorry I’m a novice) but I ran 21.5 miles on Sunday in 3hrs 10 mins. What would that put me on course for a 3 hr 50min / 4 hrs or something like that?
I had noticed in the past when I was running say 15milers 18 milers I was completely shot after it (couldn’t run another step). Obviously I was setting out to fast from the start. When I made a conscious effort to slow myself down which I found surprisingly hard to do by the way and I was ok with the longer mileage.
I here lots of people saying that the single biggest reason for people not finishing the Marathon is they set out to fast at the start and then come the later stages they are shot. So with this in mind my plan was to run it basically at the pace I run my long runs now. For fear of the same happening to me. Is your advice for the more experienced runner or is it for all of us?

I'm not exactly clear on what you're asking. Amadeus' advice applies to all levels but experienced runners who know themselves better can push the boundries a bit more than marathon virgins.

However some random comments,

very few people don't finish the marathon. Many people walk the last few miles though and suffer quite a bit. An even pace or even negative split (wher you run the second part faster than the first part) is the way to go. If you start off too fast you may well be running aneraobically. Great for a 100m sprint. A disaster with 26.2 miles to run.

Most people feel they couldn't run another step after their long run. I certainly did when I started. However you'll find that as the distances you plan increase then you will meet them. It's partly psychological.


BTW, it's quite early to be doing 21 mile runs? Are you periodising?

A final point (and I know I've made it before) is that the marathon is a race of two halves. The first 20 miles to warm up and the second 6.2 miles that separates the men from the boys. Even if you prepare properly and therefore do not hit the wall, the last couple of miles of a marathon are a hard slog. Of course it's possible to run with tired cramped legs but then it becomes mental.

onekeaneo

hunnymonster wrote:

I'm not exactly clear on what you're asking.

I thought I was fairly clear in what I was asking. Is Amadeus’ advice not basically that you run you long runs slower then you race pace? My question was basically why?
I am worried that if on race day I run my race quicker than then all my practice long runs (the pace that I am used to) will I not increase my chances of getting into trouble in the later stages of the run?

hunnymonster wrote:

The first 20 miles to warm up and the second 6.2 miles that separates the men from the boys.

This is my point exactly. If I start off quicker than the pace that I am used to will I not get into trouble later?

From reading these posts I know you have a lot of experience Hunnymonster so maybe you can explain. As an amateur and this being my first Marathon obviously I have no experience to call on.

I know I’m running high mileage a bit soon. I’m not trying to be a hero or anything. But since I retired from football last summer I've started running and just steadily increased the mileage. Will this be a problem do you think? I am mixing these long distances in with weeks with less mileage.

Peckham

I'm currently re-reading Pete Pfitzinger's "Advanced Marathoning" and am a firm believer in his approach (am using one of his plans to prepare for Dublin). Even if you're not using his training plans, this book is a highly recommended read as a guide to marathon training. Don't let the title put you off, it would probably be better titled as "An advanced approach to marathon training", as what he has to say is valid for everyone, whatever their experience is.

His opinion on long run pace is that long runs (16 miles+) should be started slowly, buidling to a pace that is 20% below marathon pace (MP) after 5 miles, hold the pace around this level for most of the long run and then push to 10% below MP for the last 5 miles of the run.

Running these runs too quickly means that it will take you longer to recover (thus making you more likely to skip/curtail runs over the days following it, and/or get injured). Thus the benefits of the pace is negated by what can follow. Also be warned there is a danger behing running these runs too slow as it introduces the risk of re-inforcing bad running style (shortening strides, posture etc.). Also, it means your longest run (20 miles or so) will take roughly the same amout of time as the marathon itself, thus giving you a psychological boost that you can run for that length of time.

Pfitzinger, however, does recommend doing part of some long runs at MP so you have the feel for them when your body is under pressure of long run. But only one or two runs during the entire training plan.

The only way to identify MP is to run a race in race conditions - anything from 10k upwards with results inputted to a mileage calculator should give you a good handle on what your pace is. The half-marathon is probably the best indication you'll get.

And, don't worry about having to speed up your pace on the big day - the excitement and adrenalin will do this for you. You should be more concerned about keeping the pace down/steady for a negative split.

hunnymonster

I see Peckham answered most of your questions while I was out of the office. Pfitziger is a sports physiologist and was a superb marathoner. His co-author Scott Douglas makes the complex principles Pfitzinger talks about comprehensible to the lay person. It's an excellent book but I still prefer the lore of running if I'm only going to recommend one book to people.

Onekeaneo, what other runs are you doing apart from the long training runs? How do you feel the day after them?

The idea is that you do some runs at race pace (ensuring your body can handle it) and some long runs slower than race pace so that you know you can spend the required amount of time on your feet but without needing substntial recovery time. Race day is when you put the two together. It's hard on your body but then a race is supposed to be. Amadeus and I are friends with one of Irelands fastest ever marathoners. He says that if you're not hurting by mile 18 of the marathon you're not trying hard enough. Obviously he was talking to experienced runners like Amadeus (and maybe me) but you can afford to let loose on race day a little if you understand how your body works.

To answer your final question about big mileages. Of themselves they are not a problem. I was just wondering you you were going to do a 20+ mile run every week from now until October. If so there is a risk of overtraining and injury. It's better to start a race 10% undertrained than 1% overtrained. Anyone who has overtrained in the past will understand how debilitating (sp?) it is.

What you say about mixing big and small weeks is very sensible. Try to be failry structured about it though. If you build up through three weeks then have the 4th week as a down week. When you come to the second cycle you can start from a higher base line. You'll often see this refered to as periodisation.

Abhainn

I think Hunnymonster and Peckham have just provided some excellent comments and insites.
I too am planning my first marathon in Dublin with a goal of sub 3:20. My long runs are just up to 14 miles now and find it very difficult to slowing down to a > 8min / mile pace. I'm not planning any longer runs (16 miles and +) untill second week in August. I plan to do 6 - 7 of these with a few couple of half marathon races thrown in also.
However I only run 3 days a week now, which comprises of one speed session, one tempo and one long run. I find the tempo run can be very tough after I do the speed two days previous. Should I soon drop the speed session?

Peckham

Abhainn wrote:

My long runs are just up to 14 miles now and find it very difficult to slowing down to a > 8min / mile pace.

Having the discipline to slow down on long runs/recovery runs is as important as having the discipline to keep going when things get tough/your body starts to scream "NO MORE!!!". I have struggled with this two, but having a GPS watch really helps....alternatively if you have a heart monitor you can work it so that your heart rate stays within a particular range

Abhainn wrote:

I'm not planning any longer runs (16 miles and +) untill second week in August. I plan to do 6 - 7 of these with a few couple of half marathon races thrown in also.
However I only run 3 days a week now, which comprises of one speed session, one tempo and one long run. I find the tempo run can be very tough after I do the speed two days previous. Should I soon drop the speed session?

3 days a week is a bit tight for marathon training, especially when two of those sessions are focussed on speed. Do you have plans to step up your training to include more days?

If you're training for your first marathon, then speed sessions aren't as important as they are for someone looking to improve their time (I didn't include any speed sessions in training for my first marathon). Take a look at some of the novice/intermediate plans that Hal Higdon has to offer and maybe think about shaping your plans in this way. Even drop your speed session and replace it with two shorter run sessions (i.e. around 5 miles each). Most plans seem to be based around 5 days running, 1 day cross-training and 1 day rest.

onekeaneo

hunnymonster wrote:

you can afford to let loose on race day a little if you understand how your body works.
QUOTE]

I suppose that’s the point. This being my first Marathon I don’t know how my body might cope with the change in pace. Maybe it’s a fear of the unknown but in my own mind I reckon the way to get around (as a novice) will be to stick to my routine, stick to my training and not try anything new in the race itself that could backfire. Training week in week out for football yes I know what my limits are and how hard to push. But as I’m sure you’ll both agree training for the Marathon is a different kettle of fish and in many ways a leap into the unknown. After all the training so far and the training to come it would kill me if I broke down in the latter stages of the race because I mistimed/misjudged my pace at the start. So I plan to take it nice and easy at the start and let all those hero’s run ahead, asses the situation come mile 18/19 and see how I am after that…
I am doing a half marathon in September to get used to race conditions ….
To answer your question Hunnymonster I’m (loosely running Hal Higdon’s training schedule). 5/4 days a week depending on work commitments.
Two… 7 milers midweek with two…. 4 milers. Rest days Monday (after long run Sunday) and Friday…
No I won’t be running 21 Miles Sunday more like 16miles to be honest. Plan to run 18miles as my long one the following Sunday then maybe do another 21milers the Sunday after that…

--amadeus--

Typical HM, gets in before me again

Excellent comments on here and I have nothing to add really, just a couple of observations..

1 - No-one has mentioned the magic of the Taper yet. At the minute you are running on tired legs, you'll be amazed at the spring and bounce in your step after an easy two weeks and three or four days of carb loading. I guarantee you'll get to the first mile marker do a time check and genuinley not think you were running *that* fast. Just don't get carried away!

2 - Be conservative with your goals. No-one ever plans not to finish so saying "I just want to get round" is a bit of a cop out (IMO), but I'm always concerned / skeptical of first timers planning on going sub 3:30 unless they have a huge amount of experience at middle distance running. This isn't a dig at anyone and good luck to you but the marathon is a very (very, very!) long way...!

HardyEustace

Back to original poster's question-Don't worry about being two weeks late.

However I finished my first marathon last October (still thrilled ). I started on Hal Higdon but a friend recommended a fantastic book

The Non-runner's Marathon Trainer by David A. Whitsett

I switch to this program and loved it. The mental preparation was essential and made a huge difference to me enjoying the marathon so much.

While Amadeus says that not having a finish time is a cop out, it depends on what you want from your first marathon. I genuinely just wanted to finish it. Because I wasn't under pressure for time, I rocked round and just loved every minute of it. I finished in 4:30 which was an unexpected bonus, and enjoyed every step of it.

However Amadeus does make a good point in saying that its a long way round, if you've prepared properly then you won't have a problem-its all about the long runs. That said I spent a lot of time over taking people who i thought looked like "proper runners" but who had obviously had under trained or had injury problems. its an awful shame to see as I think that even getting to the start of the race is a fantastic achievement. However sometimes it really does seem to be a race of the tortise and the hare... I spent a while almost hanging back feeling like a fake for overtaking some of the people who looked more like I had thought a marathon runner should look like-if you know what I mean.

Its all about the long runs they're the one thing that you shouldn't miss. Thus instead of doing week 3,4,5 why not do 2,4,5? or even 2,3,5? you shouldn't increase your mileage by more than about 10% per week so you can always average the difference over the first few weeks...
Good luck .

hunnymonster

--amadeus-- wrote:

Typical HM, gets in before me again

For those who don't know, I've crossed the line just seconds in front of Amadeus in at least 2 recent marathons and have the finish line photo's to prove it. Mind you his pbs are decreasing faster than mine so I'll be looking at his derrière pretty soon I'm sure.

HardyEustace

hunnymonster wrote:

For those who don't know, I've crossed the line just seconds in front of Amadeus in at least 2 recent marathons and have the finish line photo's to prove it. Mind you his pbs are decreasing faster than mine so I'll be looking at his derrière pretty soon I'm sure.

...or should that be
looking at his pretty derrière soon

onekeaneo

Thanks all for the advice. I have to say I appreciate all the comments from the experienced runners. It really does help to read these hints and tips and advice so keep it up!!
I do agree however with HardyEustace and first time round to complete in a respectable time is a big achievement in itself. And I for one will be trying my best to help strugglers along. I may have been guilty in the past of setting myself some unrealistic goals (I may have even posted here before that I was planning to run a 3hr 30 hmmmmmmm) maybe not!
I have been in football training sessions in the past where I thought I was in boot camp or something and literally going to die! I know all about pushing myself the the very limit but like I say this is something completely different for me but ti is enjoyable. So this time round I think I may just “try” to enjoy it as best as I can, and just take in the experience. If I get past the finish line under 4 hrs then I’ll have a big smile on my face. If not I won’t be beating myself up to much about it!
Come on you first timers!!!!!!!! Best of luck!

--amadeus--

HardyEustace wrote:

...or should that be
looking at his pretty derrière soon

We'll have to set a marathon we're all running and have a best derrière competition. I'll judge the womens

hunnymonster

no problem but my next marathon involves a bit of a swim and a cycle to warm up. You still up for it?;)

Abhainn

Thanks Peckham for advise. I was thinking of dropping the speed session and replace it with two other runs in a few weeks alright.
I don't think I could add in a 5th run though. I am not a great fan of training 5/6 days a week. I understand that does work for some people, but as you get older and I am the wrong side of 30 I find that it takes a bit longer to recover after sessions. I also run on the road / track which are not the best surfaces I know. I don't do grass anymore - too many years of GAA suffering!
I also do wear a heart monitor and find it a vital tool.

Anyway I'll see how I go.

hunnymonster

Abhainn, Like Others have said, 3:20 is an ambitious target for a first time marathon. How have you arrived at this goal? It might be fgood for us to know as it will help give advice.

If you find your next session is suffering because of a speed session then by all means drop it or change it for something else. Alterntaively play with the timing so as to allow maximum recovery between hard sessions. I assume you are "actively" recovering i.e. stretching, eating straight after running, hot and/or cold therapy or whatever you find works for you.

Being the wrong side of 30 is not a reason to go easy on training. This week I'll do 24:30 hours training. Ok I know this is extreme but with proper conditioning even my old body can handle it. Being new to something is however a license to be cautious. Last thing anyone wants is to bring an injury into a race.

Peckham

Abhainn wrote:

I am not a great fan of training 5/6 days a week. I understand that does work for some people, but as you get older and I am the wrong side of 30 I find that it takes a bit longer to recover after sessions.

If recovery is the reason why you don't want do include a fifth session then I would suggest that you drop all speed/tempo sessions and just aim to get out running five days a week (i.e. more running but at a lower intensity). Building a mileage and frequency base is SO important to having the endurance to get around those 26.2 miles (particularly the final 6.2 of them!). I would be concerned that 3 days a week, and two of them being speed sessions, may not be enough - certainly if you're looking to do 3:20.

Abhainn

Hunnymonster / Peckham - both your views taken on board and thanks.

Like Others have said, 3:20 is an ambitious target for a first time marathon. How have you arrived at this goal? It might be fgood for us to know as it will help give advice.

I used McMillan formulae to get this target. This is my first year at competing in races. Having already done a 1:34 in the Achill half I did this by rarely doing more than 20 miles / week in three sessions. I do hope to reduce this to around 1:32 for the Longford. I feel this will have benefited me well speed wise for the big one.
After that I will take both of your advise and concentrate on getting out for 4 / 5 runs while increasing my milage to +30 miles per week.

I am a bit worried though on my weight and am worried that I might not get round before my hips or knees or something breaks down. At the start of the year I was 87kg and have now dropped to under 83kg. I am 173cm in height so BMI is 26.9 now but well built.
My goal is to get under 80kg but I am struggling. I do seem to be eating more now though. My alcohol intake of pints is not much now. As I increase my milage will my mass reduce?

Abhainn

Hunnymonster / Peckham - both your views taken on board and thanks.

Like Others have said, 3:20 is an ambitious target for a first time marathon. How have you arrived at this goal? It might be fgood for us to know as it will help give advice.

I used McMillan formulae to get this target. This is my first year at competing in races. Having already done a 1:34 in the Achill half I did this by rarely doing more than 20 miles / week in three sessions. I do hope to reduce this to around 1:32 for the Longford. I feel this will have benefited me well speed wise for the big one.
After that I will take both of your advise and concentrate on getting out for 4 / 5 runs while increasing my milage to +30 miles per week.

I am a bit worried though on my weight and am worried that I might not get round before my hips or knees or something breaks down. At the start of the year I was 87kg and have now dropped to under 83kg. I am 173cm in height so BMI is 26.9 now but well built.
My goal is to get under 80kg but I am struggling. I do seem to be eating more now though. My alcohol intake of pints is not much now. As I increase my milage will my mass reduce?

Peckham

Abhainn wrote:

This is my first year at competing in races. Having already done a 1:34 in the Achill half I did this by rarely doing more than 20 miles / week in three sessions. I do hope to reduce this to around 1:32 for the Longford.

If you did 1:34 in Achill (an excellent time), all things being equal you should comfortably get under 1:32 in Longford. Haven't run Longford myself, but by all accounts it's a lot easier than Achill as it's much flatter.

Abhainn wrote:

As I increase my milage will my mass reduce?

It will happen as a natural process, but you're not going to lose substantial mass. Similar discussion on Runners World a while back.

Abhainn

Hunnymonster / Peckham - both your views taken on board and thanks.

Like Others have said, 3:20 is an ambitious target for a first time marathon. How have you arrived at this goal? It might be fgood for us to know as it will help give advice.

I used McMillan formulae to get this target. This is my first year at competing in races. Having already done a 1:34 in the Achill half I did this by rarely doing more than 20 miles / week in three sessions. I do hope to reduce this to around 1:32 for the Longford. I feel this will have benefited me well speed wise for the big one.
After that I will take both of your advise and concentrate on getting out for 4 / 5 runs while increasing my milage to +30 miles per week.

I am a bit worried though on my weight and am worried that I might not get round before my hips or knees or something breaks down. At the start of the year I was 87kg and have now dropped to under 83kg. I am 173cm in height so BMI is 26.9 now but well built.
My goal is to get under 80kg but I am struggling. I do seem to be eating more now though. My alcohol intake of pints is not much now. As I increase my milage will my mass reduce?

SharkTale

Hi People.....very interesting topic, myself doing my first marathon in October, following the Hal Higdon novice programme, (ran my first 11 miles last week, personally a great achievement, if people saw me smiling to myself in the rain last week in Goatstown it was just cause I had completed the 11 miles).

I agreed with all the points raised, I was specifically trying to run in around the 8.41 - 9.15 per mile, and found myself in around the 7.23 per mile. Had to discipline myself to slow down, really does feel awkward and not natural to run that slow,

If people could recommend what kind of foods I should be eating whilst training for the marathon, doing the 4 runs per week as per programme and easy cross training (swimming or even just walking)...I at fairly healthily normally but I am sure that I should be eating different types due to the extra training. If there was a web site or eating plan that somebody could recommend I would appreciate it.

Thanks

hunnymonster

If your diet is already healthy then you shouldn't need to chage it for marathon running. Maybe timing of meals will change slightly (always get carbohydrate and protein into you as soon as you can after running). If you're happy with your weight find yourself loosing weight with the increased training then add some more calories.

onekeaneo

Hi Sharktale. Congrats on passing your first 11 miles.
With regard to your food intake. If you eat well and have a healthy balanced diet normally I would just say keep say keep it up. Lots and lots of fresh fruit and veg and 2/3 Litres of water a day. Obviously!!! have a good intake of Carbs…Lots of lovely pasta…potatoes….bread…yogurt…
A good portion of protein also with your meals and fresh fish (the kind with scales on it not breadcrumbs)

HardyEustace

I found that when I was training that your body will tell you what it needs. As the mileage increases you don't want to eat anything remotely crappy and just crave really good, nutritious food. Water, water, water is the one mantra I stuck by in teh run up to the marathon.

bobbysands81

HardyEustace wrote:

Back to original poster's question-Don't worry about being two weeks late.

However I finished my first marathon last October (still thrilled ). I started on Hal Higdon but a friend recommended a fantastic book

The Non-runner's Marathon Trainer by David A. Whitsett

I switch to this program and loved it. The mental preparation was essential and made a huge difference to me enjoying the marathon so much.

While Amadeus says that not having a finish time is a cop out, it depends on what you want from your first marathon. I genuinely just wanted to finish it. Because I wasn't under pressure for time, I rocked round and just loved every minute of it. I finished in 4:30 which was an unexpected bonus, and enjoyed every step of it.

However Amadeus does make a good point in saying that its a long way round, if you've prepared properly then you won't have a problem-its all about the long runs. That said I spent a lot of time over taking people who i thought looked like "proper runners" but who had obviously had under trained or had injury problems. its an awful shame to see as I think that even getting to the start of the race is a fantastic achievement. However sometimes it really does seem to be a race of the tortise and the hare... I spent a while almost hanging back feeling like a fake for overtaking some of the people who looked more like I had thought a marathon runner should look like-if you know what I mean.

Its all about the long runs they're the one thing that you shouldn't miss. Thus instead of doing week 3,4,5 why not do 2,4,5? or even 2,3,5? you shouldn't increase your mileage by more than about 10% per week so you can always average the difference over the first few weeks...
Good luck .

Cheers mate!

I'm half way through week 6 now and it's going much better! I've done a 10 mile run and I'm in a taper week with a 7 mile run on Sat. Once I stay injury free I'm confident that I'll do it as I'm taking the preparation seriously, eating well, and missing none of my runs. As a result I'm about 17 pounds lighter so from a personal point of view I'm winning on all levels!

I can really see how running gets under people's skin, I'm absolutely loving the experience of this and believe me my goal is just to finish the marathon!

jrar

Just came across this thread - I'm a marathon virgin as well hoping to be at the start line in Dublin in October.

I'm currently doing 3 seesions per week/8 days usually comprising a couple of 10K runs and a longer weekend run (anywhere between 8-11 miles) - I did do a 13.5 mile run back in early June, but my training has been somewhat curtailed due to a knee injury which I'm getting physio on.

I have no idea what my ideal race pace is - I just want to break 5 hrs so I guess I need to be looking at 10 min. miles and keep that going.

My questions to the experienced runners on here is what do you folks do for hydration on the longer training runs e.g. this morning I did 8 miles straight from my bed (with warm up) but no fluids on board. How should I prepare for the longer 16/18/20 mile runs that I'm planning for this month and next as I know I will need water/food given that I'll be 3-hrs plus on my feet ?

Also, my current running shoes are probably reaching end of life - I currently use Asics Gel shoes which I find great, but should I be looking for something else for the marathon ? I do the bulk of my running on roads / cycle lanes trying to avoid concrete surfaces which I find very unforgiving !

ps - I know 3 sessions a week is not great but I'm 44 and need recovery time more than younger runners ! Walked the last 2 x Dublin Marathons in 6:12 and 5:40 respectively so I have some "appreciation" for the distance involved

hunnymonster

jrar, When I started I carried a bottle of water with me when I ran. These days I drink loads before I head out and loads when I get back so don't carry anything. I know some people use those bum bag type things that hold a water bottle and your keys. I think the most popular brand ar nathan. Another option is a little back pack with a bladder full of liquid. Here I think camelbak are the favourites. Some people choose routes that pass a shop and they carry enough money to buy some liquids. Others do their long runs on the treadmill in front of a good film. I hope that gives you some options.

jrar

Thanks Hunnymonster

I run mainly on quiet country roads and I don't own or have access to a treadmill so I guess I'm going to have to learn to drink lots of water prior to a run and hope that I can keep going without any need for a natural break along the way ! Currently, I DO drink lots of water on my return from a run so I'm halfway there on the hydration front but I guess it's more important before the run !

lizanne83

I am always reading these threads and enjoy getting the superb running advice/tips from fellow runners! I have been running for just over 4-years and have mostly been running 6-7 days/week. I’ve entered the Dublin marathon (this will be my first) and just started following Hal Higdon’s online marathon training schedule a few weeks ago. Since starting this, I have disciplined myself to take the 2-rest days/week, which will give me the chance to do longer runs on 2 days with less injury risk due to rest days. However, even though my weekly distance is 40 miles/week, my long runs are still only 11 miles max. I maintain an average speed of 7.0-7.5 miles/hour (info from my GPS running watch). My question is this: with only 11 weeks countdown, should I have already run a constant half marathon distance (if not a 20 miler already) in training? I have run several 10k mini-marathons (time of under 40-mins) but never a half-marathon race and am hoping to do this. I would like to enter the half marathon in Phoenix Park on 22nd Sept but am afraid that if do this only a month before the big marathon, I will cause injury & be knocked out for real marathon! Or should I just run a long-distance myself in training? Currently living in NYC for the summer so between the limited looping of central park and the intense heat, long runs are quite difficult at present but returning to Dublin again at end Aug so will continue training in better running conditions then. Please advise if running half marathon so close to full marathon day is advisable or if I should do my own long run (20 miles) then should this be done as far from the marathon day as possible in case of injury risk? Sorry for multiple questions – but really want to do well in this marathon and definitely intend to do sub-4 hr!
www.lizannebarnwall.com

jrar

Question to the experienced distance runners that read these threads - re: power gel / power bars, are they any good, what's the recommended way to use them, and do they make a difference ?

--amadeus--

jrar wrote:

Question to the experienced distance runners that read these threads - re: power gel / power bars, are they any good, what's the recommended way to use them, and do they make a difference ?

The conventional wisdom is that we all carry enough fuel (glycogen) in our muscles to cover around 20 miles before it's used up (the legendary "wall"). If you plan to run beyond this then you need an alternative form of fuel. This can come from your body (fat or muscle) but usually endurance athletes will attempt to replace the used fuel with newly digested energy, typicaly in teh form of gels or energy drinks.

How you use them will vary from person to person, some have a pocket full of gels as soon as they get above 10 miles, others may have next to nothing even on 22 mile runs. The rule of thumb I used when I started racing was fuel every five miles (half an energy bar at 5 / 10 / 15 and 20 miles of teh marathon). On long runs I just used an energy drink in teh main.

They do make a difference and it is important to get used to them, especially if you are inexperienced so do use them on training runs. Try a variety as well and find what works for you. I hate gels for example but glucose tablets from teh chemist worked well. A good sports drink is essential though.

Final thing - don't ignore electrolytes. These are the salts that your body uses and they leech away in sweat. A good sports drink will include them but glucose tabs don't and they are vital.

hunnymonster

jrar, It's a very individual thing. I used to take energy gels (btw power bar are just one company, there are several out there, many people prefer an isotonic gel than the concentrated powergels) in my early marathons but I don''t any more. I still grab some energy drink if I can but other than that I find careful carb loading can get me around 26.2 miles. If you're new to longer distances then it's no harm to try they out in training and if they agree with you then use them in a race. The bars are solid food. Some people can't stomach food while running and some people actually prefer the feeling of eating something substantial. Again, try them in training and see what works for you.

jrar

Alright, in a pair of running shorts, where am I supposed to carry all of this kit ??

No seriously, thanks for your input - I did an early morning 14.5 miles run yesterday with nothing but a glass of water inside me, but I think could have gone on longer had I had some nourishment to take en route, or at least an isotonic/sports drink to gulp along the way. When I walked the last 2 x Dublin Marathons, I always carried glucose sweets, so I'll revert to them for starters plus they're certainly handier to carry !

Peckham

I think they give out energy gels at one of the last aid stations on the Dublin marathon route - fairly sure they had them at the station just after RDS last year.

My preference is to have friends/family in the crowd at prearranged points. They can have an assortment of stuff and you just take what you fancy by shouting it at them when running towards them! Although, this of course isn't possible for everyone.

I know of some people who pin their gels to their running shorts, and others who wear a bum belt/fuel pack. I use a fuel belt in training (either a small gel belt or a larger belt with 600ml bottle and 150ml gel bottle depending on my mood/conditions/length of run), but not in races.

Agree with previous posters though - it's crucial to try all this out in training and see what works for you. Taking a gel/Powerbar for the first time on race day is inviting trouble!

Jnealon

jrar wrote:

Alright, in a pair of running shorts, where am I supposed to carry all of this kit ??

No seriously, thanks for your input - I did an early morning 14.5 miles run yesterday with nothing but a glass of water inside me, but I think could have gone on longer had I had some nourishment to take en route, or at least an isotonic/sports drink to gulp along the way. When I walked the last 2 x Dublin Marathons, I always carried glucose sweets, so I'll revert to them for starters plus they're certainly handier to carry !

Drive or cycle your running route the day before and place a couple of bottles around the course. I usually do this if I am going to be doing more that 12 miles. If you run in the sticks like me this works a treat

bobbysands81

Some great info here folks - cheers.

However, I'm an absolute novice and I'm now finding my long runs tough. I'll be doing a 13 mile run in the morning.

I did 12 miles last Saturday. I found the first 3/4 miles easy, the next 3/4 miles however were amongst the hardest running I've ever done in my life - it was pure hell and I found myself walking an awful lot. The final 4 miles were pretty okay though and at the end I really felt that I could have gone a few more miles. If you had told me at mile 6 that I'd feel this way at the end there's no way I would have believed it. Anyone know what happened and why my body was like this??? I started my run very early in the morning (as I had to go cheer the Dubs in Croker!) but I had a breakfast of chicken and rice so I thought I had fuelled up well. I drank some Lucozade Sport during running too.

Any tips on what I'm doing right or wrong would be appreciated.

My goal is just to finish this marathon, if on an 12 mile run I have walked for 2 miles then is that a really abd sign for me at this stage or is it considered okay?

I have my 13 miler tomorrow, half distance, here's hoping it goes well!

Odysseus

jrar wrote:

Alright, in a pair of running shorts, where am I supposed to carry all of this kit ??

No seriously, thanks for your input - I did an early morning 14.5 miles run yesterday with nothing but a glass of water inside me, but I think could have gone on longer had I had some nourishment to take en route, or at least an isotonic/sports drink to gulp along the way. When I walked the last 2 x Dublin Marathons, I always carried glucose sweets, so I'll revert to them for starters plus they're certainly handier to carry !

Two options you have are as follows, I used to run with a bag that went around my waist just big enough to hold the essentials, mp3 some nuts and the like. It also held two water bottles. I found it cut out the mess at water stations especially the first few where the are still large groups.

The second option is to get yourself a camalbak, I got a 3lt one about a year ago and tbh it was the best thing I ever done. No carrying bottles in your hand, you just take a sip of water whenever you want. I now use it on all my runs even the short ones.

Peckham

bobbysands81 wrote:

I found the first 3/4 miles easy, the next 3/4 miles however were amongst the hardest running I've ever done in my life - it was pure hell and I found myself walking an awful lot. The final 4 miles were pretty okay though ...I had a breakfast of chicken and rice so I thought I had fuelled up well.

Could it be the chicken and rice maybe? How long was there between eating and hitting the road? It could be that you hadn't properly digested the food and as a result it hit you bad after 30mins of running. I generally avoid eating (and drinking) for an hour before a long run, having fuelled well up to that point.

bobbysands81 wrote:

My goal is just to finish this marathon, if on an 12 mile run I have walked for 2 miles then is that a really abd sign for me at this stage or is it considered okay?

Are you following a particular training plan? If so, and you're generally sticking to it, then trust the plan! Still 10 weeks of training to go, if you're building up slowly to a 20 miler or two before the race then you're okay.

How did your 13 miler today go?

bobbysands81

Peckham wrote:

Could it be the chicken and rice maybe? How long was there between eating and hitting the road? It could be that you hadn't properly digested the food and as a result it hit you bad after 30mins of running. I generally avoid eating (and drinking) for an hour before a long run, having fuelled well up to that point.



Are you following a particular training plan? If so, and you're generally sticking to it, then trust the plan! Still 10 weeks of training to go, if you're building up slowly to a 20 miler or two before the race then you're okay.

How did your 13 miler today go?

You might have hit the nail on the head with the food pal, waited over an hour after eating before I started running today and went for a walk to loosen up beforehand. Didn't have the same problems at all.

Really feel back on track after my run today, found the 13 miles quite hard but manageable! I ran 8.25k walked .25k taking liquids, then did the exact same again and then ran a further 3.8k taking me to the 13 mile mark - took me nearly three hours though but as I've said many times on this thread I'm only trying to finish - I was 19 stone when I started this training and me doing this only came about as a drunken bet... but I'm absolutely loving it now!

I'm following Hal Higdon's Novice Training Plan and although I started it 2 weeks late I haven't missed one training session and I've only gone drinking once in that time and completely changed my eating habits.

Finding it tough at times but like today it's manageable so far.

jrar

Peckham wrote:

.

My preference is to have friends/family in the crowd at prearranged points. They can have an assortment of stuff and you just take what you fancy by shouting it at them when running towards them! Although, this of course isn't possible for everyone./QUOTE]

Peckham, when you mention an assortment of stuff, what are you talking about typically for a marathon run ? Chocolate, banana, granola/energy bar ??

hunnymonster

It really depends. Different people need different things. Ideally what you want is something with a mixture of quickly and moderately quickly absorbed sugars that doesn't upset your tummy. This will ensure you get a quick energy boost but the slower adsorbed sugars will help guard against a crash. In addition I prefer something that doesn't require much chewing (difficult when panting) and which doesn't stick to my teeth (minging feeling of sugary fluff on teeth). I love banana;s or mushy flapjacks but not so much chocolate or crunchy snacks.

Peckham

Just to echo what HM says - it very much depends on personal preference and is something that should be tried during training rather than trying something new on race day.

Last year I think I had five people at various points during the race with gel, water and isotonic. Depending on how I was feeling approaching them I took what I needed if anything.

Also, people who live on the course are often outside their houses offering oranges and sugary sweets. I had a very frustrating moment last year when I managed to get a small packet of Haribo jellies when I was struggling badly and it was exactly what I needed, but didn't even have the strength to open them so had to discard them! Almost cried with the frustration!!