Drink Driving Query

2smiggy

I am wondering what the legal situation is when, a person over the legal blood alcohol limit to drive a vehicle, is stopped in private property. For example the drive way of a yard before a public road. The said person never left the private property.
Regards
Tom.

patrickolee

I heard once that it's an offense to sit in the driving seat with the keys. You don't even need to start the car, but that could be completely wrong. Just something I heard along the way.

cushtac

From www.irishstatutebook.ie

Section 49(1) Road Traffic Act 1961-2006:
A person shall not drive or attempt to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place while he is under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a drug to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the vehicle.

Section 50 Road Traffic Act 1961-2006:
(1) In this section "unfit to drive" means under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a drug to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of a mechanically propelled vehicle.

(2) A person who, when in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle which is in a public, place with intent to drive or attempt to drive the vehicle, but not driving or attempting to drive the vehicle, is unfit to drive the vehicle shall be guilty of an offence.

Section 39(2) Road Traffic Act 1994:
A member of the Garda Síochána may for the purpose of arresting a person under section 49 (8) or 50 (10) of the Principal Act, enter without warrant (if need be by use of reasonable force) any place (including the curtilage of a dwelling but not including a dwelling) where the person is or where the member, with reasonable cause, suspects him to be.

Sections 49(8) and 50(10) are the powers of arrest available to Gardaí for the offences listed in sections 49 & 50 respectively.

Jo King

If someone was to be prosecuted for the offence of drink driving there must be proof that the driving occurred in a public place. If someone drives from a public road into a private place the guards can pursue them if they have a reasonable belief that the offence was being committed. If I was in the situation where i felt that the guards were not sure if the place was public or not I would not bring it to their notice until after they had given evidence in court. I have known of a case where the guards simply claimed they had seen driving on the public road a few yards from where the motorist was in fact stopped. This was sufficient to move the alleged incident into a public place. If I was facing a charge I would get good legal representation pronto.

dats_right

Jo King's adive is absolutely spot on. The issue is whether the alleged offence (if any) took place at a "public place" as defined by the Road Traffic Acts, and if this is a real case then the person needs to talk with a solcitor asap.

2smiggy

It is a real offence. It involves the said person leaving the public house, after members of an Garda entered the public house after the offical hours in which alchol was permitted to be served. The person in question left by the back door and walked to a relations private yard (a large yard used by trucks). The Garda observed this and made there way to the exit of the yard. They pulled up in the drive way of the yard while the said person was driving his vehicle. The person in question failed a breath test and his vehicle was left where he was stopped, while he was taken to the station. Nothing was signed and the person was later collected.
I am not sure if this falls within the forum rules, and please delete if appropiate. Otherwise your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Tom.

CantGetNoSleep

cushtac wrote:

From www.irishstatutebook.ie

Section 49(1) Road Traffic Act 1961-2006:
A person shall not drive or attempt to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place while he is under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a drug to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the vehicle.

Section 50 Road Traffic Act 1961-2006:
(1) In this section "unfit to drive" means under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a drug to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of a mechanically propelled vehicle.

(2) A person who, when in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle which is in a public, place with intent to drive or attempt to drive the vehicle, but not driving or attempting to drive the vehicle, is unfit to drive the vehicle shall be guilty of an offence.

Section 39(2) Road Traffic Act 1994:
A member of the Garda Síochána may for the purpose of arresting a person under section 49 (8) or 50 (10) of the Principal Act, enter without warrant (if need be by use of reasonable force) any place (including the curtilage of a dwelling but not including a dwelling) where the person is or where the member, with reasonable cause, suspects him to be.

Sections 49(8) and 50(10) are the powers of arrest available to Gardaí for the offences listed in sections 49 & 50 respectively.

slightly off topic but does anyone know the outcome of the case in cork this year where a woman was challenging a drink driving charge as a garda opened her car door in her garden?

Victor

CantGetNoSleep wrote:

slightly off topic but does anyone know the outcome of the case in cork this year where a woman was challenging a drink driving charge as a garda opened her car door in her garden?

AFAIK, legislation was changed in recent years to allow the Garda follow onto the grounds of a residence, but not into the residence itself.

If a piece of land is contiguous with the public road, e.g. a garden with no boundary or a footpath that was part-private and part-public, the courts have tend not to side with the property owner on a variety of matters.

The said person never left the private property.

Whether it is private property or not may be irrelevant. Drink driving anywhere the public has access, e.g. a pub car park, is and offence.

Turner

I love drink driving myths..

If a Garda forms his opinion from your driving that you are drunk driving on a public road he can enter the land surrounding your house (garden, driveway, field), but not your house and arrest you using force if necessary.

As for locking yourself in your car, if the garda has formed his opinion (from your driving) that you are drunk and were driving in a public place he can use force to effect the arrest and would be perfectly intitled to smash in the window of your car. An additional charge of obstructing gardai (which is an indictable offence) could be preferred in this case.

If the Garda hadnt formed his opinion that you were drunk and driving in a public place and smashed in your windows it would be unlawful for him to do so. But then again he could just say he did form his opinion. But this never happens :eek:

If the Garda believes you have committed a hit and run he can kick down the door to your house and follow you in and arrest you using force if necessary.

Our man in Havana

With the introduction of random breath testing is the need to form an opinion still needed? I was involved in an accident and all drivers were breath tested, so I would take it that no prior opinion as to intoxication is needed?

BTW can they do anything if you jump out of your car and leg it into the house and lock the door?

seamus

A neighbour of mine years back had a funny one of these. She was a little woman in her fifties, driving a tiny car. She spent the night at home with one of her friends having a few glasses of sherry and chilling out. At the end of the night, she drove her friend home, and on her way back she was flashed by the Gardai. Terrified that she'd be done for drink driving and seeing as she was so close to home, she made a run for it, leading the Gardai on a mini-chase through Knocklyon and ending up in her driveway (she thought that she couldn't be arrested on her own land). Of course when the Gardai pulled up and saw a 5-foot-nothing, grey haired woman get out, with her slippers on, they laughed and joiner her inside for a cup of tea.

Ah, the eighties...

Turner

Bond-007 wrote:

BTW can they do anything if you jump out of your car and leg it into the house and lock the door?

No.

But if you had been failing to stop for the gardai with them behind you and they considered that your driving was dangerous contrary to Section 53 RTA, they could technically kick your door down under the provisions of Section 5(2)(a) of The Criminal Law Act 1997 in order to effect an arrest.

Once they brought you outside to your driveway or front lawn or the public roadway they could tell you that you were also under arrest on suspicion of drink driving.

It would be up to them to prove that you didnt neck a glass of vodka on entering the house out of their view.

Victor

Bond-007 wrote:

With the introduction of random breath testing is the need to form an opinion still needed? I was involved in an accident and all drivers were breath tested, so I would take it that no prior opinion as to intoxication is needed?

Two newish provisions (in addition to the original 'opinion formed'):

1. Anyone involved in an accident can be breathalysed.
2. Under the authority of a superintendent(?) a checkpoint may be set up and anyone breathalysed.

Turner

And anybody who has comitted an offence under the road traffic act.

and

Inspector or above.