Movie

barrett1965

Hi,

Can you help me with this question? I watched a movie on BBC4 a while back that I think was a Buddhist movie. But, I can't remember it's correct title. All I can remember is it refered to the seasons in the main title of the movie. It was a great film on spirituality, and I love to see it again.

maitri

Hi Barrett!

What a coincidence! When I read your post I'd just watched this movie with some friends. It is called "Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter... and Spring" and the director is Kim Ki-Duc. Loved it!

BTW, I would very much like to have the music they play in the movie, but I could't find any cd's with it. You wouldn't by any chance know how to get it?

Asiaprod

That movie was recommend to me by Beruthial. I bought it from Amazon.com. It is an excellent movie and well worth watching.

http://www.amazon.com/Spring-Summer-Fall-Winter/dp/B0002J4X20/ref=sr_1_1/103-6634328-4117406?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1183505365&sr=8-1

maitri

Cool! But what about the music to the movie?
There was this cool song near the end of it, but I can't find where to buy it even though I know there is a cd:

http://www.musicmeter.nl/album/74858

The Mad Hatter

Just reading the synopsis of this on IMDb...apparently the keywords are: "Sex / Murder / Murderer / Sexuality / Frog"

It's like spot the odd one out...

It looks gorgeous, though, I'll have to check it out.

By the way, there's actually a thread on IMDb about the song at the end It says it's Jeong Seon Arirang by Kim Young Im, though these maynot be spelled correctly. Apparently it's a very popular folk song in Korea. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0374546/board/nest/75951266

maitri

The Mad Hatter wrote:

Just reading the synopsis of this on IMDb...apparently the keywords are: "Sex / Murder / Murderer / Sexuality / Frog"

It's like spot the odd one out...

Frogs are old fertility symbols, so I guess "Murder/Murderer" are the odd ones here.
BTW , frogs seem to be central in Buddhist art for some strange reason:

"Old pond,
frog jumps in
- splash"
Basho

etc...

The Mad Hatter wrote:

By the way, there's actually a thread on IMDb about the song at the end It says it's Jeong Seon Arirang by Kim Young Im, though these maynot be spelled correctly. Apparently it's a very popular folk song in Korea. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0374546/board/nest/75951266

Cool!

Asiaprod

The frog is a central part of the movie. The novice as a child spent his day teasing a number of animals out of boredom by tying them to various objects. When it came to a frog, the novice tied a rock to the frog and dropped the rock in a shallow pool. The string was just long enough for the frog to reach the surface of the pool. The old monk was watching all this and sent the novice back the next day to release all the animal. The novice did as he was told, but when it came to the frog he found it dead on the bottom of the pool. For his punishment the old monk tied a large rock to the novice when he was sleeping and made him wear it till he had understood what he had done and had sufficiently atoned for taking the life of the frog.
It really is an amazing movie. By the way, welcome The Mad Hatter, glad you dropped by.:)

maitri

Asiaprod wrote:

The frog is a central part of the movie. The novice as a child spent his day teasing a number of animals out of boredom by tying them to various objects. When it came to a frog, the novice tied a rock to the frog and dropped the rock in a shallow pool. The string was just long enough for the frog to reach the surface of the pool. The old monk was watching all this and sent the novice back the next day to release all the animal. The novice did as he was told, but when it came to the frog he found it dead on the bottom of the pool. For his punishment the old monk tied a large rock to the novice when he was sleeping and made him wear it till he had understood what he had done and had sufficiently atoned for taking the life of the frog.

Nope, the frog actually survived, Asia. You need to see it again.

BTW, the novice was but a child, and my friends and I all found the old master kind of cruel to him when he made him "atone". It worked very well as part of the artistic language of the movie, though.

The Mad Hatter

maitri wrote:

Frogs are old fertility symbols, so I guess "Murder/Murderer" are the odd ones here.
BTW , frogs seem to be central in Buddhist art for some strange reason:

"Old pond,
frog jumps in
- splash"
Basho

etc...

Cool, I did not know that. Though I have seen quite a few old froggy fertility symbols...

Still, it looks a bit odd. Removing the frog, it looks more like a film noir...

Thanks btw Asiaprod!

Asiaprod

maitri wrote:

Nope, the frog actually survived, Asia. You need to see it again.

Damn, damn, once again you are correct:o . My apologies it was in fact the fish that died. Must have had one or two glasses to many of Sake when I watched it the first time. Still, it was even better watching it the second time round.:)

maitri wrote:

BTW, the novice was but a child, and my friends and I all found the old master kind of cruel to him when he made him "atone". It worked very well as part of the artistic language of the movie, though.

Thats interesting, I thought it was a very clever way for the master to get the point across. It had the desired effect. Even children are capable of taking life. He was probably lucky the master did not chuck him in the lake too:D

barrett1965

maitri wrote:

Hi Barrett!

What a coincidence! When I read your post I'd just watched this movie with some friends. It is called "Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter... and Spring" and the director is Kim Ki-Duc. Loved it!

BTW, I would very much like to have the music they play in the movie, but I could't find any cd's with it. You wouldn't by any chance know how to get it?

Thanks Maitri for your response. I'm off now to try and find it.

maitri

The Mad Hatter wrote:

Still, it looks a bit odd. Removing the frog, it looks more like a film noir...

I see your point! Film noir + frog = Buddhist movie?

Asiaprod wrote:

Damn, damn, once again you are correct:o . My apologies it was in fact the fish that died. Must have had one or two glasses to many of Sake when I watched it the first time. Still, it was even better watching it the second time round.:)

Oh, how I love to be right!

Asiaprod wrote:

Thats interesting, I thought it was a very clever way for the master to get the point across. It had the desired effect.

Now, did it really? I wonder...
According to the movie what the master did to him, did not really teach him not to kill... And it did not save fish (and snake), either.

As I see it, the effect of that teaching was making a big shameful issue about it in the boy's life and making him feel really really bad about himself. Deliberately making children feel bad (and ashamed) about themself doesn't do them any good - there must be other (much less violent ways) ways of teaching nonviolence, IMHO.

It is also interesting that in the movie later the boy (now a man) commits a murder in the rage of jealousy - and I believe in the real world jealousy which turnes into hatred has everything to do about feeling bad about oneself. (Also of course the topic of the novice's history of being abandoned by his own mother and never working through his rage and hurt).

Ah, sorry for going on about this...:o
Anyway, my disagreement with the old enlightened (according to the "crystals" found in his ashes by the novice) master, doesn't make me like the movie any less.

Asiaprod wrote:

Even children are capable of taking life.

Yes definitely, it is even quite common I think.

Asiaprod wrote:

He was probably lucky the master did not chuck him in the lake too

Yeah!

Barrett1965: Good luck!

The Mad Hatter

maitri wrote:

I see your point! Film noir + frog = Buddhist movie?

lol, I like that so much, it's going in my sig

Karl Hungus

Exceptional film, right there. Kim ki-Duc is an amazing director, with a great eye for detail.

maitri

The Mad Hatter wrote:

lol, I like that so much, it's going in my sig

I am very honoured!

Asiaprod

Karl Hungus wrote:

Exceptional film, right there. Kim ki-Duc is an amazing director, with a great eye for detail.

Indeed, very popular director here in Asia. I guess I have been here to long, I find Korean films to be very good indeed.
I am desperately trying to remember the name of the movie you have pasted in your sig. Not a Buddhist movie, but a very interesting one. Saw it in a friends house and always meant to watch it again in peace and quite. Can you remember its name?

As I see it, the effect of that teaching was making a big shameful issue about it in the boy's life and making him feel really really bad about himself. Deliberately making children feel bad (and ashamed) about themself doesn't do them any good - there must be other (much less violent ways) ways of teaching nonviolence, IMHO.

While your statement is true, I feel that the opposite could also be said to be true. I guess it is really case-by-case. The novice was brought up in a different world to other kids. He lived the master's Buddhism on a daily basis and should have had a deeper understanding of what he had done by taking a life. It reminds me of the scene in 7 years in Tibet where the monks get upset because earth worms we being killed as they dug the foundations for the Dalai Lama's movie house. Life is very sacred in eastern Buddhism and no excuse is acceptable for taking it. Also bear in mind that many believe that rebirth/reincarnation can include coming back as an animal. I don't subscribe to this one my self as I can quite comprehend the value of coming back as an animal. Can an animal attain enlightenment? I have always wondered about this point.

maitri

Asiaprod wrote:

While your statement is true, I feel that the opposite could also be said to be true. I guess it is really case-by-case. The novice was brought up in a different world to other kids. He lived the master's Buddhism on a daily basis and should have had a deeper understanding of what he had done by taking a life.

But he obviously didn't.
And anyway the monk - who really "should have known better" left the animals to their slow deaths, which is morally the same as killing them, IMO.

While I normally agree with your case-to-case point of view, I strongly feel that the way of teaching kids (guilt-inducing) shown in the movie is always wrong also where it is culturally accepted.

Still as art - as part of a good dramatic story -I think it works beautifully.
In real life my view is: no no no!

Asiaprod wrote:

Also bear in mind that many believe that rebirth/reincarnation can include coming back as an animal. I don't subscribe to this one my self as I can quite comprehend the value of coming back as an animal. Can an animal attain enlightenment? I have always wondered about this point.

I guess to answer that question (if there really is an answer) one would first need to answer the question: What is enlightenment?

Do you or does anybody know?

Personally I can't really say I believe in enlightenment since I stopped believing in things I don't understand when I stopped being a Christian.

A lot of Buddhist writings seem to define enlightenment as freedom from desire and aversion. I can't really imagine that in an animal... but I don't know.

Others say that enlightenment is the deep awareness that there is no independent "I" or "you". When it comes to animals, I guess they don't really have those concepts to begin with?

Most say that enlightenment cannot be described at all, so that just leaves us with the question, doesn't it?

Anyway I think my cat is just perfect as she is.

Karl Hungus: I agree, too.

Asiaprod

maitri wrote:

But he obviously didn't.
And anyway the monk - who really "should have known better" left the animals to their slow deaths, which is morally the same as killing them, IMO.

This is interesting. If I were to pick one flaw in the movie it would be about this point. Why indeed did the master not free the animals. I can understand from the point of the story line. If he did free them, there would not be any point to this part of the story. If it were in real life,however, I would expect the master to save the animals and somehow punish the novice.

maitri wrote:

While I normally agree with your case-to-case point of view, I strongly feel that the way of teaching kids (guilt-inducing) shown in the movie is always wrong also where it is culturally accepted.

Well, since I have one:) I have to pull rank here and say no. Or at least, done in moderation, with kindness, from the viewpoint of making the kid learn and undestand, no. Done to excess, where it does damage the kid's sense of self-worth, I would agree with you 100%

I guess to answer that question (if there really is an answer) one would first need to answer the question: What is enlightenment?

There is no answer to that question, I remember we talked about this months ago in a very long thread, focusing on the Buddha's words that no living Human could understand, or properly define, enlightenment. It is something to be experienced. We may be able to see shadows of it in our own life.

Personally I can't really say I believe in enlightenment since I stopped believing in things I don't understand when I stopped being a Christian.

A healthy approach indeed. I do believe, but it is a personal conviction, and as such does not require me to provide any proof. (convenient excuse:) ), I am, however, currently looking at the concept that we have both enlightenment, which applies to this world, and rebirth, which applies to the next. This is one of the reasons I enjoy your dialogues so much, and this Fora, they both push me to think.

A lot of Buddhist writings seem to define enlightenment as freedom from desire and aversion. I can't really imagine that in an animal... but I don't know.

It think that freedom from desire and aversion is indeed a big part of what enlightenment is. I have never understood how animals play into this. The best I can do is treat them all with respect.

Others say that enlightenment is the deep awareness that there is no independent "I" or "you". When it comes to animals, I guess they don't really have those concepts to begin with?

But I would say that animals do have a sense of "I" and "You" They have fears, and I am sure many other emotions. If they did have those deeper concepts, would we be aware of them having them. Probably not. We can develop a relationship with a pet cat. We can believe that we understand our cat, and it understands us, but we are not a cat and therefore do not know all that goes on in a cat's mind. Mind you, that is a bad example since I believe that while there are wonderful creatures, cat are inherently insane:)

Most say that enlightenment cannot be described at all, so that just leaves us with the question, doesn't it?

Sounds like the old "What is the Meaning of life" question.

Anyway I think my cat is just perfect as she is.

And I am sure the cat feels the same way about you. If it ever learns to use a can-opener, or to open the door to the freezer, this might change:p

MeditationMom

Did someone just ask "what is enlightenment?"

Looks like I have to interrupt my vacation.

Maybe tomorrow

Asiaprod

MeditationMom wrote:

Did someone just ask "what is enlightenment?"

Looks like I have to interrupt my vacation.

Maybe tomorrow

Indeed, you have been a way to long and are missed:)

maitri

Asiaprod wrote:

This is interesting. If I were to pick one flaw in the movie it would be about this point. Why indeed did the master not free the animals. I can understand from the point of the story line. If he did free them, there would not be any point to this part of the story. If it were in real life,however, I would expect the master to save the animals and somehow punish the novice.

Yes. Unless he thought it wise not to interfere with other people's actions (in general or just right then). Nah... I go for your stroy line -explanation. He was thinking of us (the viewers) of course.

Hmmm... Everybody enlightened = no more good stories (?)

Asiaprod wrote:

Well, since I have one:) I have to pull rank here and say no.

I saw that coming...
Let's try another point of view: You have one - but I am one. Which means of course I get to pull rank (and I'll go out to play in the rain with it, the rank I mean... )

Asiaprod wrote:

I believe that while there are wonderful creatures, cat are inherently insane:)

Oh yeah! That's why I love'em!:)

Asiaprod wrote:

And I am sure the cat feels the same way about you. If it ever learns to use a can-opener, or to open the door to the freezer, this might change:p

Oh, Asia have mercy, let me keep the belief that at least the cat loves me.

Not much sense in me today. Sorry!
I love these coversations too. They keep me young.:)

PS:

What are your thoughts about rebrith right now?

maitri

MeditationMom wrote:

Did someone just ask "what is enlightenment?"

Looks like I have to interrupt my vacation.

Ah, hearing the word "enlightenment", MeditationMom woke up!

So can you explain what can't be explained? Or can it?