Naughty dog

ergonomics

I posted here a couple of months ago because my dog kept peeing outside my bedroom door. I put it down to the fact that my Mum was away and she was missing her and also my boyfriend was staying over and she was jealous that he got to sleep in my room and she didn't.

Anyway, the situation hasn't improved. She continued peeing outside my door as well as outside the sitting room door. Over the weekend, after scrubbing the floor again, Mum decided that the dog would now sleep in the utility room. We put her bed in there, as well as food and water and went to bed. The next morning she had pulled all the bedding out of her bed, peed all over the floor, pulled up the lino, knocked two holes in the door, pulled down and eaten a load of my clothes and basically wrecked the place.

Mum blamed me as I came in after she went to bed but didn't say hello to the dog. Last night I said hello and went to bed. I listened from my bed for an hour to her scratching at the door so I went down and gave out to her. I went back to bed and her behaviour didn't change. I knew going down gave her attention but I went down again, opened the door a crack and turned on the light for her. I didn't say anything to her, just went to bed. Still nothing changed. This morning the room was destroyed again, we now have a huge hole in the door which I know my Mum can't really afford.

I just don't know what to do. If we let her sleep in the hall she'll pee, if she sleeps in the utility room she'll wreck the place and if we leave her outside she barks all night at other dogs. In the last few months she's gone mental. We can't calm her down at all, no matter how much we walk her. She used to be trained to sit and stay but now 'sit' means 'jump up on whoever says it cause they might have food' and 'stay' just gets ignored. If she does something bold she runs away and hides so we can't give out to her and just generally ignores us the whole time. We can't afford obedience classes but we can't afford to let her act the way she does. Any suggestions?

peasant

you may be able to afford a book?

Jan Fennel: "The dog listener"

Not the be all and end all of modern dog training, but a good start for the hopelessly lost.

As for the peeing inside the house ....are you sure she gets enough opportunity to pee outside, particularly just before she goes to bed?

ergonomics

I'll keep an eye out for the book, thanks.

She definitely gets enough time to pee. Last night she was out for a good 20 minutes before she went to bed and I let her out again when I got in. Within half an hour she'd peed on the floor. It's so frustrating because she seems to be doing it out of pure badness.

2funki4wheelz

I second that book recommendation, very useful and informative and full of tips. There's a good bit about the anxiety a dog suffers apart from its owners, as unless you consistently display leadership behaviour the dog thinks it's the leader and is fretting about you, like a mother over a child.

Do you make a fuss when cleaning the pee up, does the dog get to see you do that? Peeing might be getting results (i.e. attention from you)

fits

ergonomics wrote:

Within half an hour she'd peed on the floor. It's so frustrating because she seems to be doing it out of pure badness.

dogs generally dont do things out of pure badness... shes doing it for a reason. You need to start thinking about why she's behaving in the way she is, and then you can begin to address it...

And dont just 'look out' for that book, buy it. You'll get it in 3 days if you buy it on Amazon... It will help you to understand your dogs behaviour.
Dog training classes arent really *that* expensive either, and it sounds like they might be a very good idea.

corkimp

Maybe bring her outside and if she goes to the loo, praise her. Limit also her water from late evening - leave her a little but not too much. If you are cleaning up an accident, remove her from the room. As with pups, older dogs will think you are playing. Does she do other destructiveness when your there - in the same room as her? Or is it just when your away from her? Could be maybe a form of seperation anxiety.

Alfasudcrazy

You need another dog to keep her company. She is bored / lonely / frightened or a combo of all three.:)

Have you a nice shed out the back. Our dogs are never left in the house and seem to be getting on fine.

palaver

Let me get this straight: Your mum was away and you let your boyfriend into your bedroom? Now who's the naughty one.

Really, it's not the dog who is "naughty", it's your behaviour towards the dog. Apparantly she was used to be with you and your mum. She is a pack animal and doesn't like to be excluded. Was she previously allowed into your bedroom? I suppose. Peeing in front of the closed bedroom door was just the message: hey, it's my territory, too!
And then putting her in the utility room! Dear, oh dear! She feels now that the "pack", her family, doesn't want to know her anymore. I would wreck the place, too!
It's - in a nutshell, well, in a puddle - her message that she wants to belong again.

With a lot of patience and attention you can teach her that she is still the cherished "baby" of the pack, but that some rooms are just for the "leaders". But do it consistently, not as you feel. She might still pee for some time, but you have to deal with it, not her.

The above mentioned book is really good for beginners, getting an idea how dogs communicate. You don't even need to buy it, you'll get it in any library.

Good luck!

fits

You need another dog to keep her company. She is bored / lonely / frightened or a combo of all three.

Have you a nice shed out the back. Our dogs are never left in the house and seem to be getting on fine.

then they could end up with two lonely anxious dogs, thrown out the back... Deal with dog No.1 before you consider getting another...

Rogueish

If it is any consolation, we had much the same problem with our boxer. Trying to house train her was a nightmare (she was one of these slow learners). We used to leave her in the kitchen at night with food, water and her bed and puppyproofing the whole kitchen. You could be guaranteed that after taking her outside to pee, bringing her back inside and settling her down within half an hour she would have peed and pooped on the floor, and pulled anything she could reach onto the floor.

This was a problem when we had guests as it wasn't fair for them to get up in the morning and face this so we started to let her sleep on the floor of our bedroom. From the first night she could 'hold it' throughout the night and we have had no more nighttime accidents. If she needs to go she will get up and headbut me until I wake up and take her out.

Our only problem was that she liked to get up at night and get up on the bottom of the bed in between us . It is only in the last two weeks that we have gotten her out of this habit.

Now, at a year and a half she is fully housetrained...... but still sleeps in our bedroom . (How many dogs do you know prefer to sleep in a bean bag and not in a dog bed???? - Yes I know she is spoiled rotten, but what good is having a dog if you don't?). It might not work but it is worth trying to put her bed in your room, as you basically had a well trained dog before something set her off.

Good luck

ergonomics

If I put her in my room with her bed she'll just climb on my bed when I fall asleep.

Last night when I came in I heard her scrabbling at the door again. I went in to her and didn't make too much of a fuss. Just said 'no' firmly and also pointed at the hole in the door and said 'no'. Brought in her water to her and talked to her a bit. I was fixing up her bed and just nicely saying 'Now I'm gonna fix your bed cause you've made a mess. Then you're going to go to bed like a good girl'. When I was ready to leave I asked her again was she ready for bed and she climbed into bed and lay down. I couldn't believe it and thought I'd made progress. I said goodnight nicely and went to bed and within 20 minutes I heard her at the door again. I went down and said no again and asked her what she wanted. She went to the back door so I just let her out. Maybe I should have just ignored her but I was thinking that maybe she wanted to be outside all along. Maybe she was peeing on the floor because she thought she'd be put out and maybe she went mad in the utility room because she was so close to the outdoors but still couldn't get out. She was also panting a lot, even though she had water so I thought she might be too warm. She was well behaved outside, not barking or anything, so I think that maybe she does just want to sleep outside.

palaver - yes she used to sleep with me on my bed but that stopped over a year ago. It's just in the last 4 months or so that she's started making a mess.

When we clean up her pee we don't make a fuss of her. We show her it and say no and then ignore her or put her out.

We are consistent in our approach to her. Telling her no when she does something wrong or praising her when she's good but she doesn't seem to get it. You tell her to sit and she does it so we say 'good girl' and then she starts jumping around like crazy so you're back to square one. It means that if she does something good or right we can't praise her because she just gets over excited again. If she's done something wrong and knows it she runs away and hides so you can't give out. Half the time she just outright ignores us.

Yes the behaviour in the night is probably separation anxiety but the rest of her behaviour is not. Like I've already said, the way she ignores us when we use a command is infuriating. She knows full well how to sit or stay but ignores us point blank or jumps around because she thinks she's going to get a treat. When my boyfriend comes over she's an angel for him. Does everything she's told, even things she's never done for us. Like if we're out walking he'll tell her to heel and she will, never does it for us. When she's off the lead she normally runs away and won't back but she comes back for my boyfriend. I think that's why it's so annoying, that she's just ignoring us but behaving for my boyfriend. I assume she seems him as a dominant male but I don't know to regain my 'dominance' over her.

fits

Forget about 'dominance' thats an outdated concept.
Look from reading through your posts, I think your approach is all wrong. You can't point to pee and tell the dog 'no' half an hour after the event. The dog wont have a clue what you're on about. Either catch doggy in the act and say no and put her promptly outside, or do nothing at all...
I think if you got a trainer out to you even once, your problems would be sorted out really quickly. This is not a difficult dog... just a confused one.

fits

It also might be a good idea to introduce a crate, where she feels secure. But you'd have to introduce it properly; you couldnt lock her in it overnight straight away.

Peasant.. where are you??? You're way better at explaining stuff than I...

ergonomics

TBH when she pees and we give out she knows full well what we're on about. The minute we point at it she sulks down to floor, her standard position for 'uh oh I'm on trouble'. We don't have to even raise our voice, just the minute we look at it or point at it she goes into this position. If I didn't think she knew what I was giving out about I wouldn't bother because I know that would confuse her.

fits

She does not know what you're on about...
She's responding to your body language cues and tone of voice...

I'll put it this way.. has your approach worked so far?.. if not, perhaps theres something wrong with it. Its the easy way out to write her off as 'naughty'...
Please get that 'Dog Listener' book, for your dogs sake...

2funki4wheelz

ergonomics wrote:

TBH when she pees and we give out she knows full well what we're on about. The minute we point at it she sulks down to floor, her standard position for 'uh oh I'm on trouble'.

Exactly, she's feeling - 'uh oh i'm in trouble' - but I haven't a clue for what.

Don't make a big deal out of the goodnight routine either, that's another issue in the (oft mentioned) book - any attention surrounding you 'leaving', prepares the dog for stress/separation anxiety.

peasant

ergonomics

Your communication is all wrong, the timing is terrible

Saying "no" or pointing angrily after the deed is done just confuses the dog.
She doesn't realise that you're angry with her for something that she did two minutes ago ...or even 30 seconds ago, she just understands that your angry.

To stick with the peeing example:
To have any "educational" effect, you'd have to catch her just as she starts thinking about honkering down to do her business ..tell her no and get her swiftly outside.

As soon as the flood gates are open its too late (she will think that peeing generally is bad) and giving out afterwards is pointless.

Here's some quotes from your earlier posts:

...just nicely saying 'Now I'm gonna fix your bed cause you've made a mess. Then you're going to go to bed like a good girl'...

...When I was ready to leave I asked her again was she ready ...

...said no again and asked her what she wanted ...

Girl ...you talk too much

Your dog looks to you for clear leadership decisions.
Can I / can't I sort of decisions, yes or no ...

Occasionally she will let you know what she needs right now (out, water, food ...etc) for the rest of the time it's up to you to clearly tell her what to do and what not to do.

You know why she "functions" for your boyfriend?
Because he gives her clear signals at the right time and not a whole "novel" at some unrelated point in time.

Your dog isn't bad ...just confused.


You have to understand that a dog only thinks and acts in the here and now. These is no forward planning (well, not a lot anyway) and certainly no afterthought or reflection.

If your praise or correction is a few seconds late, you might as well leave it because it will only add to the confusion.

As for "giving out" ...it is absolutely pointless to berate your dog what a "naughty naughty girl" she's been, after the event has happened.
A quick "no" or "eyh" while it is taking place is much more effective.

If you give out to your dog while she is already doing something else (walking away, just sitting there, looking at you ...whatever) she will associate the giving out with whatever she is currently doing.

So all of a sudden just sitting there is "bad" ...and five seconds later you ask her to "sit" ...what is she supposed to do?

peasant

have read of this:

http://freedogtraininginfo.com/147/good-timing-creates-better-results-with-dog-training/

and this:
http://freedogtraininginfo.com/145/consistency-is-the-key-to-dog-training/

Needinfo10

Hi Ergonomics,

We had a somewhat similar situation with our dog at night time when we first got her. When we put her to bed in the utility room she would whine and scratch all night long as well as the odd mistake on the floor. We tried all the firm talking, ignoring, everything. After a while of this, someone suggested that perhaps she didn't know where we went at night or if we were coming back and that was where the anxiety stemmed from. So in sleep deprivation induced desperation! we followed the suggestion, to allow her to sleep in our room but gradually move her back to the utility room. So we did something like this

• 1 night on the bedroom floor
• 2 nights outside the open bedroom door
• 2 nights on the landing
• 2 nights at the bottom of the stairs
• 2 nights in the utility room, door open
• and finally close the door.

[/LIST]We were skeptical, but it really worked like magic. Not only is she happy to go into her bed now, there hasn't been an accident on the floor since.

It might be worth a try, the trouble seems to have started around the time there was a change in the sleeping arrangements;) in the house, so perhaps you could start again from scratch to reassure her that everyone is safe and sound and all is as it should be at night time.

Best of luck.