Broadband USB Modems over Mobile Networks versus Data Costs on Mobiles

Inquitus

Vodafone Ireland Network

OK I have a N95 Nokia Mobile which can act as a Modem, however I must pay 2c per kb for data access.

I can buy a USB Modem from Vodafone for about €130 and then for about €40 euro's a month can have unlimited data usage at HSDPA (if covered which I would be) speeds.

My Phone can do exactly what the USB Modem Vodafone provide can do, but I am not allowed to use that data package on my mobile.

Both cases above use the same technology and the same network and would have the same overheads to Vodafone.

Why the hell can't they provide this for me?

Rant over,

Thanks

Inqui

PS Same applies to 3 and O2 afaik

Inquitus

Thinking about it it's because VOIP would kill them stone dead. I can use Skype on my mobile, but it's only cost effective at home or on a free wifi network, due to the data costs involved of paying what Voda charge.

Still sucks tho

Inqui

I'd take it with VOIP banned anyways

SkepticOne

Inquitus wrote:

My Phone can do exactly what the USB Modem Vodafone provide can do, but I am not allowed to use that data package on my mobile.

Both cases above use the same technology and the same network and would have the same overheads to Vodafone.

Why the hell can't they provide this for me?

They would make less money if they provided that. None of their competitors is providing such a combined service so where is the incentive?

Mobile operators in Ireland seem to be operating as if they were a cartel. An outsider needs to come in and shake up the market.

Urban Weigl

3 already allow you to add an "unlimited data" option for €19.99 to your phone, and rumour has it that O2 will also allow you to do this for €30 a month from the 9th of July.

Meteor also let you add 10 GB of data for €30 a month, though they do not have a fast 3G network.

watty

AFAIK: The sim for the data service will work in phone, but only incoming and emergency call

If you are online a lot a separate phone is a better idea. I don't think the phone can take calls while in use as a modem.

SkepticOne

Urban Weigl wrote:

3 already allow you to add an "unlimited data" option for €19.99 to your phone,

Is this not available only on a data-only SIM card?

Inquitus

3 is the same as Vodaphone it is avail only through a seperate USB Modem, not available on your phone.

It is grossly misrepresented on their website at this time, and implies that you can get a 10GB data package for your mobile, this is simply untrue, I have spoken to them and visited the store. You can get a 10GB package if you buy a USB Modem (which is a mobile phone of sorts allbeit one you cant make calls from ) but not a 10GB package for data usage on your mobile phone proper.

Inqui


Clarification Edit:
You can get unlimited mobile broadband for 19.99, but it is limited to http only so effectively a useless POS.

Only the USB Modem provides a proper ISP service and cannot be used with a phone.

Urban Weigl

Apparently if you add the "unlimited data add on" on postpay, it is not limited to http only. It's only limited on prepay, presumably because they want to cripple prepay users and get them to sign a contract.

SkepticOne

Inquitus wrote:

You can get unlimited mobile broadband for 19.99, but it is limited to http only so effectively a useless POS.

Only the USB Modem provides a proper ISP service and cannot be used with a phone.

Arbitrary crippling of services in order to protect revenue. Still, it is a lot better than several years ago.

Blaster99

Urban Weigl wrote:

Apparently if you add the "unlimited data add on" on postpay, it is not limited to http only. It's only limited on prepay, presumably because they want to cripple prepay users and get them to sign a contract.

The nice thing about the mobile add-on is that you can turn it off whenever you don't need it so if you only need mobile "broadband" (my phone is not HSDPA capable so it's 384kbps) for a limited period of time you can turn it on as needed. I'm in this position over the next couple of months so I can pay €20 a month for a couple of months and get basic broadband access and then turn it off again. Obviously extraordinarily handy when roaming in a 3 Like Home country.

watty

The problem with VOIP is that the default codec G.711 is fine on WiFi using 100kbps, but that is mad on on upstream of Mobile network. Unless there is a way to standardise on G.729 (costs per handset) or speex (free & open source) or iLBC (free, not open source), any of which are a more manageable < 12kbps upstream, then VOIP on Mobile network has a problem. The most popular laptop Soft phones for SIP/VOIP don't use speex or G.729. You need the pro pay only versions for G.729 and unless the gateway or SIP peer supports speex, using a free Softphone with that will switch to the hungry G.711.

I used to think it was just about revenue. But when you study VOIP closely, the issues of codec, bandwidth and QOS, do put some merit in Vodaphone's claims about disabling feature in phone to "protect user". Of course it *IS* about revenue mostly.

Blaster99

I have no idea what the relevance of this is in this thread, but the problem is actually that the G.711/729 codecs are designed for circuit switched networks, not packet switched networks, so they can't handle packet loss, which is rampant on a mobile network. They're designed to handle bit loss. This is why Skype works well over mobile broadband because it's using a codec that's designed for packet switched networks. It can also handle variable bit rates, which is also reasonably important.

Inquitus

Incidentally my Voda supplied (but unlocked) N95 runs Truphone which runs on the phones Native VOIP support and is imba as well as free to 40 countries and some mobile networks.

www.truphone.com

I can only use it on wifi (home of free hotspots) due to the punitive data transfer costs, but it works great and works great on 3G or HSDPA (I did a quick test call)

Inqui

watty

Blaster99 wrote:

I have no idea what the relevance of this is in this thread, but the problem is actually that the G.711/729 codecs are designed for circuit switched networks, not packet switched networks, so they can't handle packet loss, ....

Except Skype is proprietary and not SIP.
G.711 used for Fax is extremely intolerant of packet loss

speex and iLBC are both adaptive and are designed for IP networks, better than G729. GSM codec is far worse than G.729 for coping with packet loss, which as long as you have at least 12kbps bandwidth will handle its 8k data rate. G.729 is standard for cable networks as they do not have big packet loss and they Gateway at edge of network (no Internet Peer to Per SIP).

There are really three distinct applications of VOIP, (1) The actual ISP does SIP VOIP and you have a number. No peer to peer.
(2) 3rd Party VOIP provider or no VOIP provider. You can simply peer by IP address as long as you both use the same protocol & codec. It need not be SIP.
(3) Proprietary service that is not SIP but needs an operator's server (Skype). Some apparently proprietary services really use SIP. Skype is either peer to peer, or using relay proxies depending on your firewall. For mobile the worry is that without a firewall, Skype could be using your handset/modem as a relay proxy for two other people that have firewalls. If you do have a firewall and don't forward the magic port number, then latency & packet loss is worse as Skype has to use a relay somewhere else.

Windows Messageing/MSN client can do SIP (if no firewall) and may be using SIP based VOIP for voice chat. Dunno.


This is the Internet, isn't it supposed to go off topic after a few days?

oscarBravo

watty wrote:

Except Skype is proprietary and not SIP.

True - but it does use iLBC (among others), doesn't it?

I have my Grandstream configured to use iLBC (to Blueface) as its first choice, and it works near-perfectly. I get a very occasional audible glitch over the course of a several-hour phone call. It's certainly a lot better than trying to make a Vodafone call in my house.

Altreab

oscarBravo wrote:

True - but it does use iLBC (among others), doesn't it?

I have my Grandstream configured to use iLBC (to Blueface) as its first choice, and it works near-perfectly. I get a very occasional audible glitch over the course of a several-hour phone call. It's certainly a lot better than trying to make a Vodafone call in my house.

:eek:

oscarBravo

That's long-distance relationships for you.

RangeR

oscarBravo wrote:

That's long-distance relationships for you.

Too True. If only I had VoIP 5 or 10 years ago. €300 to €400 a month I was racking up.

Man, Watty is right. This DOES go off topic every now and then. I'll resign myself to the naughty chair for a few hours.

cgarvey

Lads, just get the ruler out, altogether.

bminish

oscarBravo wrote:

I have my Grandstream

MY Grandstream ;-)

.brendan

oscarBravo

bminish wrote:

MY Grandstream ;-)

I was waiting for that. Possession is nine tenths, innit.

rukkus

Urban Weigl wrote:

Meteor also let you add 10 GB of data for €30 a month, though they do not have a fast 3G network.

Interesting.. I emailed Meteor asking them about data packages a couple of months ago and got no response. Where can I find details of this offering? I've been ripped of by their almost 5euro/Mb for too long.

Urban Weigl

rukkus wrote:

Interesting.. I emailed Meteor asking them about data packages a couple of months ago and got no response. Where can I find details of this offering? I've been ripped of by their almost 5euro/Mb for too long.

"In addition to the AUP, Meteor’s Unlimited Data Add-On is subject to further fair use conditions, which Meteor may rely on to withdraw or terminate the Service from a Customer. These fair use conditions are such that a Customer's usage of the Meteor Unlimited Data Add-On shall not exceed 10GBs over any month."

http://www.meteor.ie/billpay_data_tcs.html

You need to be on Talk 400 or higher or be a business customer to avail of it. It is €30 for 10GB.

I don't recommend emailing Meteor, you will get nowhere. Call them. If the agent does not know about it, ask to speak with someone else or call them again. It does exist, I know of people who are on it.

Capt'n Midnight

Inquitus wrote:

Clarification Edit:
You can get unlimited mobile broadband for 19.99, but it is limited to http only so effectively a useless POS.

Only the USB Modem provides a proper ISP service and cannot be used with a phone.

seriously http only ?
surely they must allow ftp + https + pop + smtp too

overall which is the best provider for for light browsing / email usage ?
and do you get a better signal with USB or Pcmcia + external antenna ?

out of curiousity what's the story with laptops with built in cards - are they usable yet ?

Urban Weigl

It is definitely HTTP only on 3Pay. There are apparently no ports blocked on bill pay, though. I guess it's another way for them to get people to sign a contract.

As far as laptops with built in HSDPA cards*, they have always been usable, it's just that they tend to be pricey. Personally I would just go for the USB modem as that is more flexible in that you can use it with any computer. I am using it with my MacBook Pro right now. Driving from Tuam to Limerick today, I had a constant HSDPA signal virtually all the way, and the connection did not drop once.

*Just to clarify, I am talking about integrated HSDPA here, which is usually in the form of an integrated antenna and miniPCI card, hence why I said "cards". I am not talking about PCMCIA or ExpressCard's.

Blaster99

I tried to setup a Microsoft VPN connection (can't remember the exact technical term now, not IPsec though) with my phone as a modem and I couldn't setup a connection. Or rather, it seemed to connect but couldn't authenticate. Same laptop but with Vodafone's 3G card, it works fine. This may be an inadvertent mistake on 3's part, they do make a few of them. When I get a chance I will test IPsec proper, which I guess is a more common form of VPN. (To pre-empt anymore anoraksia on this thread, I don't need to hear about the virtues of various VPN technologies)

Speeds are pretty crap, though. I'm getting about 160-200kbps and the latency seems to be much worse than I get with a proper 3G modem. Signal strength is good.

Urban Weigl

Your mobile is probably not HSDPA-capable, hence the disappointing speed. If it was HSDPA-enabled, you should see the same speeds that you get with a dedicated modem or card.

Blaster99

Sure, so I should see 384kbps, right?

Urban Weigl

You should see up to 384kbps. With a HSDPA capable handset, you should see up to 3.6Mbps, such as the Nokia N95 or E90.

The key here is "up to". It will depend on your signal strength and how many people are using it at the time (contention rate). Because of its mobile nature, contention may change, unlike cable or DSL, depending on how many people are connected to mobile broadband in your cell at the time.

watty

The weasel phrase in both cases is up to
I'm not suggesting Urban is a weasel. It's the marketing people in the phone companies.

cgarvey

If it wasn't for "up to", there'd be an awful lot less people connected to any form of broadband.

watty

When novelty wears off the Mobile 3G/HSDPA market and level of subscribers is stable, then Mobile users will not see anything like 1/4 that speed. Fixed broadband users even at 48:1 contention will continue to see 75% to 90% of their package speed.

Blaster99

If I get somewhere between 512kbps and 1Mbps with a HSDPA modem (which I do), should I not be getting max speed in a non-HSDPA configuration? There's clearly bandwidth available in the cell.

I think it's the phone that's not capable of driving sufficient speeds or something.

Urban Weigl

watty wrote:

When novelty wears off the Mobile 3G/HSDPA market and level of subscribers is stable, then Mobile users will not see anything like 1/4 that speed. Fixed broadband users even at 48:1 contention will continue to see 75% to 90% of their package speed.

Which is why my advice has always been to get DSL, cable or fixed wireless instead, unless mobility is of value to you.

It's the same trade-off as when you buy a laptop instead of a desktop computer: you get mobility, but at some cost in terms of speed and price. In either case, you should ask yourself: do I consider the mobility of this device or service valuable to me?

That being said, currently HSDPA appears to be faster than entry level DSL or fixed wireless (don't know about cable), at least as far as speed is concerned, not latency. That is likely to remain the case until providers like eircom and digiweb double the speed of their entry level packages.

But again, ask yourself that question before going for mobile broadband.

thebman

Well its the only thing available in many rural areas like my parents where we don't have LOS to the only wireless operator in the area and eircom aren't enabling the exchange for years to come (its on the last list announced so I'm being optmistic at 5 years).

unidentifiable

I agree that many in rural areas will benefit from 3G/HSDPA. I signed up to Three on Saturday, getting 200Kb - 400Kb on 1 bar of reception. I couldn't care less if it doesn't match the rates in Germany or Japan, for now I have a "good" connection. It took 18 minutes to D/L Skype (22MB) on Three, with Dialup that would have taken 3.5 Hours.
In 12 Months time when my contact is finished with Three the BB market will have changed, I am convinced the Eircom will react to the Mobile providers, they have far more muscle and coordination than the FWA groups.
Has anyone bought fringe antenna from "poynting" a South African company? They claim great things in their marketing blurb even a coupler for the E220 USB modem see http://www.poyntingdirect.co.za/custom.aspx?id=1
See it started already I went from 56Kb to 250Kb and 3 days later I want more!!!!

SkepticOne

unidentifiable wrote:

In 12 Months time when my contact is finished with Three the BB market will have changed, I am convinced the Eircom will react to the Mobile providers, they have far more muscle and coordination than the FWA groups.

There seems to be some evidence that this is happening over on the broadband forum. Eircom have always reacted fast to competition; trying to kill it off before it gets established to maintain their dominance. However, I don't think they have the ability to take on the mobile firms and will have to settle with being competitors with them.

What I don't think we'll see is Eircom pumping lots money into the rotting legacy copper last mile, replacing lines, etc. Instead, they will make more use of the copper they have and try to squeeze a bit more out of it. Previously they have been very conservative with line tests. In the future you will see, I believe, more people qualifying for DSL albeit at lower speeds. 512k may make a comeback. They will also try selling their own FWA product, although I think the install fee will have to come down significantly and the upload speed will need to improve.

thebman

Well within the first week of my father getting the 3 broadband trial, Ice Broadband had put a leaflet throught our letter box saying they now covered our area.

I had previously enquired about getting their service but they told me, we weren't in the coverage are and that was only a couple of months ago.

I'm guessing that we this mobile broadband might be the spark the Irish Broadband market needed especially 3's offering as they have very good coverage and at a very good price. Companies like Last Mile who offer 512KB/s down for 40 Euro a month with 40:1 contention are going to have to adjust their prices/speeds.

Blaster99

Just to close this off, IPsec VPN works fine with a 3 phone as a modem.

unidentifiable

Can I ask a final question?
What is the most cost efficient way to share the 3 HSDPA connection? Vodaphone south Africa have nice page but no model numbers?? At least we know it is a Linksys box. http://www.vodacom.co.za/services/mobile_data/3g_hsdpa_router.jsp

The "three" store in Dundalk recokons any hub/router with a USB slot is OK but I am guessing that ignorance is blinding their judgement!

Perhaps I am just too suspicious nowadays!

unidentifiable

brim4brim wrote:

Companies like Last Mile who offer 512KB/s down for 40 Euro a month with 40:1 contention are going to have to adjust their prices/speeds.

Big problem with FWA in Ireland is many operators are using different equipment/protocols, which does not allow easy amalgamation/assimilation when one operator buys out another. Mobile operators are using existing sites (and technology) and can squeeze the existing customer base, long term I expect a big shake out in the FWA market (i.e. bankruptcies) unless bigger operators like digiweb make the leap ahead (4G).

It all comes back to economies of scale Adam Smith ABU (1750's)!!

BTW "3" HSDPA peaked at 900Kb today 1 bar reception for me.

Capt'n Midnight

unidentifiable wrote:

Can I ask a final question?
What is the most cost efficient way to share the 3 HSDPA connection? Vodaphone south Africa have nice page but no model numbers?? At least we know it is a Linksys box. http://www.vodacom.co.za/services/mobile_data/3g_hsdpa_router.jsp

The "three" store in Dundalk recokons any hub/router with a USB slot is OK but I am guessing that ignorance is blinding their judgement!

Perhaps I am just too suspicious nowadays!

How does it work?

This Router has a slot into which the Vodafone 3G Broadband Mobile Connect Card is inserted, and up to 5 PCs can be connected to the Router via WLAN or LAN cables, to allow all the users simultaneous access to the Internet. You can also connect a printer to the Router, and allow the users connected to the Router, access to the printer.

Looks like a PCMCIA router rather than a USB one.

thebman

Urban Weigl wrote:

"In addition to the AUP, Meteor’s Unlimited Data Add-On is subject to further fair use conditions, which Meteor may rely on to withdraw or terminate the Service from a Customer. These fair use conditions are such that a Customer's usage of the Meteor Unlimited Data Add-On shall not exceed 10GBs over any month."

Now fair enough I don't work in advertising but how the hell is it not false advertising to say unlimited data but its limited to 10GB per month?

I can't believe companies are getting away with this crap. We must have no consumer protection at all in this country.

Urban Weigl

brim4brim, I agree with you, that is false advertising.

Patrickof

There's a D-link DIR 451 router that takes a PCMCIA card and it also has a USB port which "seems" to take the USB modem - but their website doesn't mention this, I saw that on another forum where the U220 was listed as compatible.

Urban Weigl

Didn't want to open a new thread about this as I don't have hard evidence, however, 3 Ireland plan to do the following:

1. The have big plans regarding coverage. They want to have the entire country covered with 3G.
2. They have big plans regarding speed increases, presumably this is upgrading their backhaul and rolling out 7.2 and 14.4 Mbps HSDPA as quickly as it is feasible to do so.
3. An ExpressCard is coming soon, to replace the ageing PCMCIA card currently offered.

cgarvey

I presume o2 and Vodafone have the exact same plans, no?

Urban Weigl

There's going to be more pressure on 3 to get full 3G coverage, because every time you're out of 3G coverage, they have to pay Vodafone roaming charges.

cgarvey

Right, but my point was more "so what" to 3's plans, there's nothing new or unexpected in there. If there was a timescale or something more than we plan to be the biggest and best type PR stuff, then you'd have a point.