Port Tunnel site in Whitehall

flogen

This isn't quite a transport query, but I figure those who have been following the Port Tunnel Development would know the answer or details, so hope the mods don't mind me asking here.

On the bus today going by Whitehall church I spotted that most of the site where the tunnel digging was being done (across the road from the Grand, used to be just kind of farm land).

I had wondered before what would become of the site once the digging was finished, and I always assumed it would be developed. It's big enough for a reasonably sized estate of semi-ds.

That said, they've pretty much paved over the whole site, so builders would need to dig it all back up again - I also wonder if the land is fit for any kind of development or if it is needed to remain clear for any future maintenance or work on the tunnel.

Just interested to know if there's anything happening with the site.

Wishbone Ash

flogen wrote:

This isn't quite a transport query, but I figure those who have been following the Port Tunnel Development would know the answer or details, so hope the mods don't mind me asking here.

On the bus today going by Whitehall church I spotted that most of the site where the tunnel digging was being done (across the road from the Grand, used to be just kind of farm land).

I had wondered before what would become of the site once the digging was finished, and I always assumed it would be developed. It's big enough for a reasonably sized estate of semi-ds.

That said, they've pretty much paved over the whole site, so builders would need to dig it all back up again - I also wonder if the land is fit for any kind of development or if it is needed to remain clear for any future maintenance or work on the tunnel.

Just interested to know if there's anything happening with the site.

That field used to have spring wheat in it each year. To avoid traffic, the combine harvester used to arrive at 4 or 5am for harvesting to avoid traffic but would have to wait for several hours for the dew to clear. It was probably the nearest field to the city centre still used for agriculture. I think it's owned by Highfield Hospital. It must be worth a fortune!

m_stan

Before the port tunnel was started, a leaflet was dropped around all the houses in the area stating all the facts and plans for the construction. One thing mentioned was that the site would be returned to its previous state after the job was complete and it was even pointed out that the soil was removed to a temporary location so that it could be put back when done.

Either way, I wouldn't expect this to be a field for very long. It's a large site, and it'll have houses on it before long.

flogen

Wishbone Ash wrote:

That field used to have spring wheat in it each year. To avoid traffic, the combine harvester used to arrive at 4 or 5am for harvesting to avoid traffic but would have to wait for several hours for the dew to clear. It was probably the nearest field to the city centre still used for agriculture. I think it's owned by Highfield Hospital. It must be worth a fortune!

That's right - always loved it, to be honest, as it was (probably) the last patch of countryside within Dublin city... despite the fact that the owner could sell it up for a serious amount of money (it's big enough to be turned into anything, really.... retail, office, residential, hotel, etc. etc.).

m_stan wrote:

Before the port tunnel was started, a leaflet was dropped around all the houses in the area stating all the facts and plans for the construction. One thing mentioned was that the site would be returned to its previous state after the job was complete and it was even pointed out that the soil was removed to a temporary location so that it could be put back when done.

Either way, I wouldn't expect this to be a field for very long. It's a large site, and it'll have houses on it before long.

That's interesting - although surely they'd still need to lift all the concrete they've leveled the place with - the crops wouldn't get fed very well with such little depth!

I agree, though, it'll probably go soon enough... there's a really squashed looking set of apartments gone up right next to it (which used to be an old dilapidated house) and it'll probably go the same way.

Wishbone Ash

flogen wrote:

as it was (probably) the last patch of countryside within Dublin city...

There's another field off Clonliffe Road (near Croke Park) with cattle in it. Very unusual that far in! Presumably it's owned by Clonliffe College or by the Archbishop. He has a nice few fields behind the palace in Drumcondra.

bk

flogen wrote:

It's big enough for a reasonably sized estate of semi-ds.

Semi-d's, not a chance, if it does get developed it will be apartment buildings of 4 - 5 stories high plus some other stuff like a hotel, shops maybe even some offices.

It is far too valuable land and too close to the city center for semi-d's (there might be a small few town houses as part of a mixed development with apartments). It'll even be close to an eventual Metro stop, so it would definitely be high density.

There have already been a number of infill developments in the area and they have all been apartment buildings of 4 - 5 stories high.

Wishbone Ash

I just had a look at the area on Google Earth. There is several undeveloped fields to the west of the DPT site. They appear to be behind DCU (between Collins Avenue West and Griffith Avenue). I vaguely remember the field with the frontage onto Griffith Avenue being sold several years ago for €30m(?). I wonder has that land bank been developed (Google being a few years out of date)?

The Archbishops House has more land than I thought behind it!

Prof_V

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I just had a look at the area on Google Earth. There is several undeveloped fields to the west of the DPT site. They appear to be behind DCU (between Collins Avenue West and Griffith Avenue). I vaguely remember the field with the frontage onto Griffith Avenue being sold several years ago for €30m(?). I wonder has that land bank been developed (Google being a few years out of date)?

Hillside Farm - there's still a working farm there, or was when I was a student at DCU in 2005-06. There are also, I think, a private hospital and convalescent home on the Albert College Park side of the lands. DCU owns the land on the Griffith Avenue frontage (part of which may be used for the Griffith Avenue Metro station); I don't think anything has been developed so far on either the DCU site or the main Hillside Farm.

PS: The Google Earth imagery for this area seems to be no older than spring 2006, at least judging by the east end of DCU. The small buildings on the Mall (the old AIB and "General Services" or whatever it was called) are gone completely, and this didn't happen until February 2006 - I've photos confirming it. However, the land where the five-a-side pitches are now is only in the early stages of clearance, and this was well under way by summer. The foliage suggests it's well into spring, maybe early summer.

Wishbone Ash

Prof_V wrote:

Hillside Farm - there's still a working farm there, or was when I was a student at DCU in 2005-06

Interesting post Prof V. I remember going round to the rear of DCU a few years ago and getting a glimpse of an open sided haybarn. I presume the orangey coloured cluster of buildings on Google Earth are the corrugated roofs of the farmyard. No sign of any livestock - seems to be grass or tillage. Is the entrance to it via Hampstead Avenue?

Prof_V

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Interesting post Prof V. I remember going round to the rear of DCU a few years ago and getting a glimpse of an open sided haybarn. I presume the orangey coloured cluster of buildings on Google Earth are the corrugated roofs of the farmyard. No sign of any livestock - seems to be grass or tillage. Is the entrance to it via Hampstead Avenue?

Yes, those buildings are the farmyard, and it does seem to be tillage from my recollections of it. I think it can be reached from Hampstead Avenue, but there also seems to be an entrance coming out on the Swords Road near, in fact apparently through the grounds of, Plunket College - I've no idea if this is used.

flogen

bk wrote:

Semi-d's, not a chance, if it does get developed it will be apartment buildings of 4 - 5 stories high plus some other stuff like a hotel, shops maybe even some offices/

I say semi-ds because it's big enough to fit a decent sized estate of them, that's all.
The estate to the east of it (if you looking Google Maps) is a reasonably new development IIRC - although it was built a few years before the property market got really insane.

Interesting about those other patches of land nearby - never even knew about them! Looking in google maps really reveals some interesting stuff!

Wishbone Ash

flogen wrote:

Looking in google maps really reveals some interesting stuff!

The 72 acres at St Brendan's Hospital, Grangegorman must be worth a tidy sum! It's only 1 mile from O'Connell Street. Didn't DCU buy that a few years ago?

(PS - it's just West of Broadstone Bus Depot - North-West of the city centre).

Most of the large green areas on the Southside seem to be golf courses.

flogen

Wishbone Ash wrote:

The 72 acres at St Brendan's Hospital, Grangegorman must be worth a tidy sum! It's only 1 mile from O'Connell Street. Didn't DCU buy that a few years ago?

Jaysus, that must be worth some money!!!
What's on it at the moment (there seems to be a few buildings scattered around it.)
Might put an offer down myself... €10/acre seems fair to me

Prof_V

Wishbone Ash wrote:

The 72 acres at St Brendan's Hospital, Grangegorman must be worth a tidy sum! It's only 1 mile from O'Connell Street. Didn't DCU buy that a few years ago?

DIT - http://www.dit.ie/DIT/news/grangegorman/

Wishbone Ash

flogen wrote:

What's on it at the moment (there seems to be a few buildings scattered around it.)

It still operates as a psychiatric hospital but there are only a hundred or so patients there now compared to 2,500 in the 1950s.

Prof V wrote:

DIT - http://www.dit.ie/DIT/news/grangegorman/

Ah yes, I always get them mixed up. Thanks.

Victor

There are horses in an unspoilt field between the railway and the canal at Cabra.

jjbrien

Prof_V wrote:

DIT - http://www.dit.ie/DIT/news/grangegorman/

They will make a fotune if this goes ahead selling all those buildings in D1 and D2.

bk

flogen wrote:

I say semi-ds because it's big enough to fit a decent sized estate of them, that's all.
The estate to the east of it (if you looking Google Maps) is a reasonably new development IIRC - although it was built a few years before the property market got really insane.

Well I'm just going on new developments in the area over the last 5 years. 120 new apartments (Hampton Lodge) have just gone up south of it at the back of the cloisters. They originally had planning permission for houses, but changed to apartments when the property market took off.

Likewise another 220 apartments are going to be built nearby on Sion Hill Road.

With it proximity to the city center, Dublin Airport, on a main road and near a proposed Metro stop you can guarantee it will be a mix of residential apartments, offices and retail.

antoinolachtnai

Guys, we should start a consortium.

But why does everything have to be built upon? Would it be so bad to have a few fields?

Victor

antoinolachtnai wrote:

But why does everything have to be built upon? Would it be so bad to have a few fields?

Yes, it is nice to have urban parkland, whether as a formal or informal park or as a piece of scrubland.

However, for every hectare of land not built on in the city you have X number of people travelling Y distance more than the should have.

bk

antoinolachtnai wrote:

But why does everything have to be built upon? Would it be so bad to have a few fields?

While of course green space and parks should be maintained, high density in fill close to the city promotes a better quality of life due to shorter commutes and promotes the use of public transport, rather then people living out in the middle of nowhere in the suburbs.

antoinolachtnai

We are talkin' about a field on the road to the airport here, it's hardly a green belt.

You guys reckon Phoenix Park is fair game too?

I'd hate to be up against you guys in a Bord Pleanala hearing. You make Sean Dunne and Johnny Ronan look like tree-hugging environmentalists. :-)

Victor

antoinolachtnai wrote:

You guys reckon Phoenix Park is fair game too?

Not quite.

There are several differences. The PP is a coherent park, this is just a field, one among many in the area.

I wouldn't necessarily object to a world class development with one or two pockets of the PP, provided it was done on a low impact basis.

murphaph

There's still plenty of brownfield sites in and around the city itself that need developing to increase density.

antoinolachtnai

Victor wrote:

Not quite.

There are several differences. The PP is a coherent park, this is just a field, one among many in the area.

I wouldn't necessarily object to a world class development with one or two pockets of the PP, provided it was done on a low impact basis.

Surely the sensible thing would be to make the current areas more dense, rather than turning everything into endless housing.

I live on Grand Canal St. It's not too bad here, because I'm near the canal and Merrion Square, but as you go north now, you have to go quite a bit to find a green area. It would be a pity if this pattern were repeated in the middle suburbs. I think it makes sense to leave some decent sized green areas.

I would leave the Phoenix Park alone myself. If you ask me, what was done with the old racecourse was ridiculous. Maybe it was better than building a casino, but i'm not sure.