2 pair on very drawy board - 50 NL

dvdfan

I hate these situations and i think im overvaluing 2 pair here. The big stack is very passive and playing about 18/11 after 200 or so hands so hes not getting involved without a big hand here as hell also view me as tight. My raise was a panic raise, ive got outdrawn so much lately and so i was saying if your going to RR me here im getting all in so all in or fold are your options, obviously this is stupid because hes only RR me here with something that beats me.

Thing is i dont think 2 pair is such a strong hand on these boards, anyone with a T is probably going to call a raise, anyone with TQ or T8 is ahead of me, the only 2 pair combo im ahead of is T9 and that RR is probably folding that hand out and a set of J,T or 9 is not folding to that RR. How on earth should this hand be played. Should i RR to say $14 and fold to the 4bet, what if i do and get a fkat call?

Green Joke Poker Cannes 0.25/0.50, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

Button Hero ($83.17)
SB ($48)
BB ($8.35)
UTG ($10.55)
BB ($33.65)

Preflop: Hero is on the Button with J 9
UTG calls 0.50, BB checks, Hero raises to 2, SB calls 1.75, 1 fold, UTG calls 1.50, 1 fold.

Flop (7.00) J T 9
SB bets 4, UTG calls 4, Hero raises to 25, 1 fold, UTG moves all-in for 4.55.

Turn (44.55) Q

River (44.55) 9

UTG shows 7 5
Hero shows J 9

Hero wins 44.55 with A fullhouse, Nine's and Jack's


Heres another similar type hand i posted a while back that got no replies:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055105682

BobSloane

I'd probably let it go pre-flop.
But you raise and flop 2 pair. You have people betting into you. You can't call on that board as there are so many scare cards. You're afraid of QT and T8..?wtf? You should be afraid of KQ and a set of Ts. Whats all this if you RR me I'm getting all-in craic? Nobody re-raised you! Either fold or put in a big raise on the flop. I think you played it ok. The key decision is on the flop - as usual - its a scary board but if I raise pre-flop with crap and flop 2 pair I'm not folding very often

dvdfan

BobSloane wrote:

I'd probably let it go pre-flop.
But you raise and flop 2 pair. You have people betting into you. You can't call on that board as there are so many scare cards. You're afraid of QT and T8..?wtf? You should be afraid of KQ and a set of Ts. Whats all this if you RR me I'm getting all-in craic? Nobody re-raised you! Either fold or put in a big raise on the flop. I think you played it ok. The key decision is on the flop - as usual - its a scary board but if I raise pre-flop with crap and flop 2 pair I'm not folding very often

Im on the button in an unraised pot so im happy to play J9 here most times. To explain the QT and T8, im not saying im afraid of them of course im afraid of the straight and sets here but hands like QT and T8 will probably call a RR here at this level and i still wont know where i am in the hand by the turn, there a raise and a call on a flush draw and straight heavy board so i really didnt know what to do.

I felt i RR too much and thats what i was saying by the "if you RR me im getting all in. If i raise to $12 here someone with a strong draw which is a strong possibility might rr me all in because they have fold equity aswell as a strong draw, if i RR to $25 then they know im pot committed and they have very little folding equity so by raising so much im saying im committed to this hand so if you RR me im willing to get all in and thus they have no fold equity and there move isnt as strong.

I just feel that 2 pair on this board and in the other thread i linked to are not as strong as they look if someone pushes over my RR here because my hand can be outdrawn by alot of hands here with good odds and can already be drawing dead and thats why im wondering whats the best option a Medium RR to $14 that i can get away from an all in if i think im beat or a $25 raise that cuts down equity for drawing hands that push but then i dont have the option of folding if i think im beat.

RedJoker

Making a steal attempt here is fine imo; a tight passive limper is good to attack, as you'll usually take it preflop or with a cbet, and your hand has potential. The arguments against stealing here are the shortstacked BB and UTG limper, most of the time you'll get away with it but every now and then they'll push over you preflop or on the flop with marginal hands and ruin your steal. I usually use 4xBB + 1 per limper but that's just splitting hairs.

Your flop bet is too big, 15-16 would have been fine. You said SB was passive so a push from him will probably mean you're beat. Against a more aggressive opponent I'd call a push here, the board is so draw heavy that players tend to overplay their top pair hands to 'protect' them, you'll often see this on monotone boards as well. Because of this you may get action from weaker made hands as well as draws.

If you do get flat called you'll probably have the option to take the free river card since you're in position. If they do push a scary turn card you have an easy fold and gave them no implied odds, especially since SB is passive.

You mentioned you were getting outdrawn a lot lately, if you think it's affecting your play you should consider taking a break for a day or two.

BobSloane

Well if you think he's only betting into you here with a set or straight I suppose you should fold. You say he's very passive. I like your raise size though. There's $15 in the pot at that point - and this is your pot! You raised it pre-flop and you have position and you are the big stack!