gym contract problems

PeakOutput

ok so hypothetically speaking if the following scenario was to unfold

"
person a goes to a gym in october and speaks with the rep about joining

the rep says no problem heres the paperwork

person a says i cant sign up for 12 months as i will not be in dublin

rep says fine

person a uses the gym and eventually gets stopped on the way in and asked to sign a contract of membership person a does this no problem

the time comes for person a to leave and they cancel their direct debit. they ring the gym and the receptionist tells them thats not aproblem you can cancel your membership at any time you just need to come in and sign a form

person a forgets to go and sign it and receives a letter asking for that months payment which they ignore. one month later they get another letter asking for the money in stronger terms so person a rings the gym

the gym tells him that under no circumstances can he cancel his subscription before the twelve months are up and if he does not reinstate the direct debit the debt collectors will be on their way

person a explains what he said upon joining and admits he should of read the contract but feels that verbal contracts are binding aswell and twice he was told that he could cancel at any time (once originally and then again by the receptionist) this does not change the gyms mind
"

what would peoples opinions be on where person a stands?????

thanks in advance

Poppers1888

Cancel your direct debit with your bank, they will send you a few lwetters but they never got the debt collectors after me, it would prob cost them more than the last few months of your subscription would

seamus

Assuming that the contract that person A signed contained the 12-month clause, then person A has no real comeback.

Verbal agreements are enforceable only so far - signing something will override any previously mentioned verbal agreement, I would say.

The Gym may send in debt collectors, but the person is under no obligation to provide them with money or allow them into their house. The only way for the gym to forcibly obtain their money is to begin legal proceedings.

PeakOutput

person a is also changing address in two months if that makes much difference

seamus

PeakOutput wrote:

person a is also changing address in two months if that makes much difference

It doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

If person A decides to ignore, the worst case scenario is this:
1. The gym send debt collectors around.
2. Person A tells the debt collectors to hit the road.
3. Person moves.
4. The gym begins legal proceedings to recover the debt.
5. Person A has no idea that this is in process.
6. Devoid of a defence, Person A is found guilty in his absence, and the Gym is awarded the subs, as well the debt collection fees and legal costs.
7. After person A fails to pay (because he knows nothing about it), the gym returns to court.
8. The court issues a warrant for person A's arrest.

There's a good chance that a warrant out for someone's arrest will bite them in the ass at some point. It's painfully easy to track someone down if you have access to other information such as their driving history, family addresses, etc.

Victor

Google ain't finding it but there is a UK case that goes under the key words

law case laundrette negligent misstatement +button -pants

Where qualifications / assurances given by an assistant were held to override the standard conditions of contract. However, given that you signed the contract unamended, I don't see how you can get out of it.

Not reading the contract is not a defence (unless you were mislead as to what the contract was).

dermot_sheehan

seamus wrote:

It doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

If person A decides to ignore, the worst case scenario is this:
1. The gym send debt collectors around.
2. Person A tells the debt collectors to hit the road.
3. Person moves.
4. The gym begins legal proceedings to recover the debt.
5. Person A has no idea that this is in process.

Gym would have to initiate proceedings against Person A, and bring them to the Persons attention before the court would give a default judgement for failing to file a defence. This would ordinarily be done by registered post

6. Devoid of a defence, Person A is found guilty in his absence, and the Gym is awarded the subs, as well the debt collection fees and legal costs.
7. After person A fails to pay (because he knows nothing about it), the gym returns to court.
8. The court issues a warrant for person A's arrest.

Arrest warrants are generally not issued for civil proceedings, what would happen is Gym would attempt to recover by getting a garnishee order or judgement mortgage against any property the debtor owns.

PeakOutput

so am i correct in saying that the resposibility is completely on person a to understand the contract even though he has already explained that certain conditions are unnacceptable???

this sounds like it could leave alot of room for abuse to me

i find this interesting as on a personal level i used to work for an insurance company and if an employee made a mistake and promised something that was not in the contract the company would stand by it and see it threw i thought this was because it could be become a problem in court at a later date but obviously not..........

thanks for everyones opinions if there is anything to add id appreciate but im pretty sure i understand were person a would stand if this were to happen

dermot_sheehan

This question is basically a classic example of the Parole Evidence Rule:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parol_evidence_rule

seamus

Thanks for clearing that up gabhain. When I think "worst-case", I tend to ignore some of the rules

modalcommand

Gym would have to initiate proceedings against Person A, and bring them to the Persons attention before the court would give a default judgement for failing to file a defence. This would ordinarily be done by registered post

Exactly. And if that post is never given to the person, no court case can proceed. Once you move you are home and dry. Even if you don't move just deny your identity and never sign for a registered letter.

dermot_sheehan

modalcommand wrote:

Exactly. And if that post is never given to the person, no court case can proceed. Once you move you are home and dry. Even if you don't move just deny your identity and never sign for a registered letter.

If the Plaintiff however thinks the Defendant is evading service, they can apply to the court for an order ordering substituted service.

Victor

How come you didn't sign up to say a 6 month deal?

Related article http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=24817-qqqx=1.asp

Amazotheamazing

modalcommand wrote:

Exactly. And if that post is never given to the person, no court case can proceed. Once you move you are home and dry. Even if you don't move just deny your identity and never sign for a registered letter.

Sadly that's not how it works, otherwise anyone expecting a Court case would just keep moving and not signing for post.

N8

What if Person A had signed up for a 12 month contract and paid up front on the basis of getting a massive discount and then tried to claim it back where would they stand?

Should the refund be based on a percent of time used i.e. 3mo out of 12mo being 25% or on a full fee basis i.e. every visit to the gym charged at full pay per visit basis?

Indeed if the latter was charged could the gym then claim that Person A actually owed them money i.e. if they were six months into the 12mo contract and full charges came to a figure over that paid for the 12mo discounted price?

What if the gym decided to close up shop? Is it entitled to charge on the full fee basis?

Is the gym required to refund on the discounted rate given that Person A will have inadvertently being presented with a financial difficulty attaining other gym membership with little or no refund?

Victor

N8 wrote:

What if the gym decided to close up shop? Is it entitled to charge on the full fee basis?

No - assuming voluntary liquidation.

Otherwise its up to the liquidator to add them to the list of creditors.

faceman

seamus wrote:

It doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

If person A decides to ignore, the worst case scenario is this:
1. The gym send debt collectors around.
2. Person A tells the debt collectors to hit the road.
3. Person moves.
4. The gym begins legal proceedings to recover the debt.
5. Person A has no idea that this is in process.
6. Devoid of a defence, Person A is found guilty in his absence, and the Gym is awarded the subs, as well the debt collection fees and legal costs.
7. After person A fails to pay (because he knows nothing about it), the gym returns to court.
8. The court issues a warrant for person A's arrest.

There's a good chance that a warrant out for someone's arrest will bite them in the ass at some point. It's painfully easy to track someone down if you have access to other information such as their driving history, family addresses, etc.

i would disagree seamus. I have never come across a case where an individual was arrested for defaulting on a similar type debt. If the debtor didnt appear in court, the case would be awarded in favour of the gym by default, and the debt would be registered and published.

As its a gym, its highly unlikely that the debt outstanding for a 6 month period would justify court action anyway, but they would probably would bring pass the debt to solicitors to scare the debtor into paying. Its quite costly with little or no return to bring individuals to court.

seamus

faceman wrote:

I have never come across a case where an individual was arrested for defaulting on a similar type debt.

Well, the warrant wouldn't necessarily be for defaulting, it would be for failing to comply with the court order to pay the money. As I say though, that's the total extreme. It would be extremely unlikely.

faceman

oops very sorry seamus, i misinterpreted your original post. Your point 7, you must be referring to the failure to adhere to a installment order? Then yes you are correct, the individual can be arrested. But like you say, its an extreme, and it hasnt happened in donkeys!

But for a bit of useless trivia, there was once a debtors prison in dublin (and other parts of the country and the UK). Debtor prisons become so overcrowded that many decades ago, the convicted were shipped to america to make a fresh start! :eek:

PeakOutput

Victor wrote:

How come you didn't sign up to say a 6 month deal?

Related article http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=24817-qqqx=1.asp

thanks for all the replies im away at the mo so only catching up now.
basically victor person a explained that they could not sign up or did not want 12 months and was told this was fine. he did not sign anything until a few weeks later after being to the gym a few times and was stopped at the reception and told to "sign this please" he knew what it was but didnt read it as it was assumed his request was taken on board.........stupid for not reading what he was signing admittedley but its the representation to person a of one thing and then a contract that states another that is where I personally have a problem.

thanks for all the advice person a will see what post / men in suits comes to his door in the next two months and keep you informed

grey wolf

I have recently cancelled direct debit onfamily membership of a Dublin gym after being members for 5 years or so.The gym are now looking for 3 months fees as I did not notify them.
I assume that a 12 month contract was signed 5 years ago,so my question is do the gym have the right to automatically renew this contract every 12 months without my signature?
Thanks

PeakOutput

i cant answer your question as i honestly dont know but unless you rephrase your post to make it hypothetical the post/thread will prob be deleted