Dublin forwards --- to greedy

mise_me_fein

I'm hearing a lot about this in the papers and on the telly and to be honest, though a few of the people talking about this are jsut jumping on the bandwagon I think that there is some truth in it.

This will cost Dublin a place in the All Ireland final I think. Can't see them beating any of the top teams unless they play as a team....In saying that, the first 20 mins Vs Meath in the first game they were unreal...no one could live with them if they played like that for the whole game.

blackbelt

The most greedy forward this year for Dublin is actually Alan Brogan.Whilst this has been a good thing for Dublin in some occasions ie the goal against Meath,I saw 2 occasions against Offaly that were certain goals that would have at least put Dublin up 1-6 to 0-2 at half time.

You can get away with it against teams like Offaly,Laois and possibly Galway to the highest extent but not against Kerry,Mayo,Tyrone.

I'd like to see Bonner being brought in from now on.He caused Kerry a lot of trouble in Parnell in the league most noticeably scoring a goal.He could be the key against the tougher teams.

blackbelt

Maybe greedy is a bit harsh,I'd prefer to say "going for glory".

kevmy

It's the system. If you watch the Dubs they usually play well for the first 15-20 mins. Then Caffery switches around the forwards and they go to sh1t for the rest of the half. At this stage he should know there best positions and only make changes if they're in trouble.

cmoney

forwards???

i didnt realise dublin had any :rolleyes:

The Rooster

Brogan certainly has tunnel vision when he gets the ball, and always has had. He only looks up to pass when he gets into trouble. I was sure he'd be less greedy when his brother played alongside him, but that wasnt the case v Offaly.

dgrif88

rooster-i actually noticed alan passed to bernie a couple times in 1st half (more than all his passes in 2 games against meath).

theres no doubt he is greedy and i dont think thats too strong a word.
he skins nearly every back he marks but he has to look up once or twice for better options.ya wouldnt see mulligan or gooch going for glory.

dont want to be too hard on him cos hes a savage player but if he can eradicate this from his game i think well improve considerably.

blackbelt-on the subject of the so called stronger teams i see you included mayo. was that an error. i think they are muck. id have armagh or donegal and even galway and cork way ahead of them.


reading jack oconnors book at moment. very good so far.
i skipped to near the end when he was talking about dubs.he was very disappointed we didnt beat mayo and reckons we would have given them a real game of it unlike tha meek challenge that mayo put up.

blackbelt

Not an error but I do think Mayo would not be as tough as Tyrone and Kerry.Brogan did give Mayo a real hard time but his tactic worked on and off whereas with the weaker teams it was a dead cert he'd score a point.Mayo are very beatable and it is mind boggling that we didn't put them away.....twice!! We certainly showed up the cracks in the Mayo defense but the decrease in Brogans tactical success against Mayo points out that it doesn't work to the degree in which it would against Laois,Offaly,Meath,Wexford and the other weak/average teams around the country.

I don't know why people are singing Galways praises so much.I haven't seen anything we should be fearful of except their forwards.I'd have a strong feeling Galway wouldn't be experienced in dealing with Brogans power runs.

Cork and Armagh,yes.Cork are a tough team all over the pitch.It is consistency thats their weakness and Kerry.Armagh without Bellew is interesting.

On a side note,I agree with O Connor.It would have been a much more entertaining and close AI Final with Dublin v Kerry compared to the crap we have had to watch.The GAA will be hoping Mayo don't get in the final with Kerry again.I think the latter stages of the Championship should purposely put Mayo and Kerry on the same side of the draw so that we don't witness any Croker Chokers again.

In fact,I might email the GAA and beg for this :rolleyes:

kevmy

blackbelt wrote:

Not an error but I do think Mayo would not be as tough as Tyrone and Kerry.Brogan did give Mayo a real hard time but his tactic worked on and off whereas with the weaker teams it was a dead cert he'd score a point.Mayo are very beatable and it is mind boggling that we didn't put them away.....twice!! We certainly showed up the cracks in the Mayo defense but the decrease in Brogans tactical success against Mayo points out that it doesn't work to the degree in which it would against Laois,Offaly,Meath,Wexford and the other weak/average teams around the country.

Funny here was me thinking that Mayo should have put ye away when we went 5 points up in the first 20 mins. Dubs ye can talk all ye want but over the last 2-3 years ye have been at Mayo's level or below. No way were ye a consistently better team.
Also the Dubs would have lost to Kerry in last years final. Not saying ye would have been embarassed like we were but losing is still losing at the end of the day.

Although Blackbelt I would also prefer if we didn't play Kerry in an All-Ireland Final!!

blackbelt

Kevmy,I don't think Mayo were worse than Dublin but I think you have to admit that in the last two games,Dublin were well on their way to winning until the usual happens...we go asleep.This p!sses me off as much as seeing Mayo progress nicely only to be ripped asunder come the final.

I have Mayo connections with my family being from Mayo.3 of my grandparents,uncles and aunts are from the Kiltimagh/Swinford area.I also boast having a Mayo jersey and will go to matches wearing it.I support Dublin but support Mayo otherwise in the other matches.

Its frustrating to see Mayo build up hope and then fall at the last hurdle.I'd prefer to see Mayo get beat at the semi final rather than the final.Thats why I'd beg the GAA to keep these teams at the same side of the draw to avoid huge disappointment and heartbreak...also for the interest of having a closely contested AI Final.

Smarmore

blackbelt wrote:

I think the latter stages of the Championship should purposely put Mayo and Kerry on the same side of the draw so that we don't witness any Croker Chokers again.

Croker Chokers? They didn't choke against the Dubs!! In fact, if I remember rightly, the Dubs choked against Mayo(and a lot of other teams). So the real Croker Chokers are the Dubs themselves. All that talk about Dublin doing better than Mayo is all hypothetitical rubbish. Mayo came back from 7 points down against the Dubs and won!!! Or maybe Dublin are just the Croker Jokers.

blackbelt

Smarmore wrote:

Croker Chokers? They didn't choke against the Dubs!! In fact, if I remember rightly, the Dubs choked against Mayo(and a lot of other teams). So the real Croker Chokers are the Dubs themselves. All that talk about Dublin doing better than Mayo is all hypothetitical rubbish. Mayo came back from 7 points down against the Dubs and won!!! Or maybe Dublin are just the Croker Jokers.

MMM,how many matches have Dublin won in Croke Park?Out of their last 14 games in CP,They have won 9,drawn 2 and lost 3.Far from Croker Chokers.I'd hardly call a one point defeat a choke anyway.

Funny you say that though,you built up your Louth team so tall and started talking about Laois before the ball was even thrown in against Wexford.What happened to the "favourites" was they met a team with some hope.Louth went to Croke Park and met some decent opposition and then choked when they were supposed to beat Wexford.So who are the real "chokers"?:D

Smarmore,you may take cheap shots but what score did Mayo lose by?...it was in the double figures.That is a score you will never see Dublin losing by but that is hypothetical.I just think the GAA should have these two teams on the same side of the draw to prevent another day at the circus in mid September.If Mayo are good enough,they will beat Kerry in the semi and hopefully come from 7 points down to stick it to Kerry and give us a great game as they did against Dublin.

2006 was the worst final I saw in my life....worse than 92,96,97,2004 for me.I thought we would not get a repeat of 2004 but last year took the cake.

blackbelt

Smarmore wrote:

Croker Chokers? They didn't choke against the Dubs!! In fact, if I remember rightly, the Dubs choked against Mayo(and a lot of other teams). So the real Croker Chokers are the Dubs themselves. All that talk about Dublin doing better than Mayo is all hypothetitical rubbish. Mayo came back from 7 points down against the Dubs and won!!! Or maybe Dublin are just the Croker Jokers.

MMM,how many matches have Dublin won in Croke Park?Out of their last 14 games in CP,They have won 9,drawn 2 and lost 3.Far from Croker Chokers.I'd hardly call a one point defeat a choke anyway.

Funny you say that though,you built up your Louth team so tall and started talking about Laois before the ball was even thrown in against Wexford.What happened to the "favourites" was they met a team with some hope.Louth went to Croke Park and met some decent opposition and then choked when they were supposed to beat Wexford.So who are the real "chokers"?:D

Smarmore,you may take cheap shots but what score did Mayo lose by?...it was in the double figures.That is a score you will never see Dublin losing by but that is hypothetical.I just think the GAA should have these two teams on the same side of the draw to prevent another day at the circus in mid September.If Mayo are good enough,they will beat Kerry in the semi and hopefully come from 7 points down to stick it to Kerry and give us a great game as they did against Dublin.

2006 was the worst final I saw in my life....worse than 92,96,97,2004 for me.I thought we would not get a repeat of 2004 but last year took the cake.

Nalced_irl

I think the forwards dont move enough and there are usually not many passing options available. Maybe the players have gotten so used to this they dont even look for options anymore and instead go themselves. It certainly costs us at least a goal a game if not more and thats not including the points that could be had if it was passed but instead we get a player shooting from a near impossible angle and sending it wide. Brogan really should get a good talking to about his vision and made look up for support instead of going straight at goal. He would be an amazing player if only he did this but it really holds him back.

blackbelt

Maybe dropping Brogan to the half forward line will be better.Then we could have other forwards do a solo run and then one-two to Brogan in order to score more goals.

Nalced_irl

That could work. I was actually amazed against Offaly how when we brought the ball out of midfield, the only man trying to make himself decent room was Sherlock. The rest would canter a few metres and if they didnt lose their man just stopped. Jayo was constantly trying to make space which i think the rest of the forwards could learn from.

blackbelt

Jayo is gr8.

nacho libre

Aren't all great forwards a bit greedy?

K-9

blackbelt wrote:

MMM,how many matches have Dublin won in Croke Park?Out of their last 14 games in CP,They have won 9,drawn 2 and lost 3.Far from Croker Chokers.I'd hardly call a one point defeat a choke anyway.

Yeah, but the problem is the three that they have lost!

Unbeaten in Leinster for nearly 3 years is good but over the last 5 years Mayo would have a better record in the AI championship. 2 All Ireland Finals. Outside of The Big Three they have the best record and in fact if you take Armagh from 2003 they have as good if not a better record.

Back on topic, Brogan does have a tendency to take too much out of the ball. I think Pillar referred to this in an interview with the Tribune before the Meath replay. Great club forwards often are just used to doing it all themselves rather than being team players.

NACHO LIBRE wrote:

Aren't all great forwards a bit greedy?

True, O'Connor referred to this about Donaghy as well, training him to release the ball quicker. But of course that goal against Armagh wouldn't have happened if he wasn't a bit greedy. The really great forwards usually make the right decision on when to go themselves or lay it off.

blackbelt wrote:

2006 was the worst final I saw in my life....worse than 92,96,97,2004 for me.I thought we would not get a repeat of 2004 but last year took the cake.

92 wasn't that bad!

Lemlin

blackbelt wrote:

MMM,how many matches have Dublin won in Croke Park?Out of their last 14 games in CP,They have won 9,drawn 2 and lost 3.Far from Croker Chokers.I'd hardly call a one point defeat a choke anyway.

How many of these were Leinster championship games? As I've pointed out before, I wouldn't think much of the competition in Leinster tbh.

Smarmore,you may take cheap shots but what score did Mayo lose by?...it was in the double figures.That is a score you will never see Dublin losing by but that is hypothetical.I just think the GAA should have these two teams on the same side of the draw to prevent another day at the circus in mid September.If Mayo are good enough,they will beat Kerry in the semi and hopefully come from 7 points down to stick it to Kerry and give us a great game as they did against Dublin.

2006 was the worst final I saw in my life....worse than 92,96,97,2004 for me.I thought we would not get a repeat of 2004 but last year took the cake.

Maybe if Dublin had got to the final we'd have seen if they'd have lost by double figures. I find it amusing that you try to criticise a team that beat Dublin. How do you know if Dublin would of lost by double figures or not? They never played Kerry but, seeing as they lost to a side that were beaten well by Kerry, don't you think its fair to assume that Dublin could of been beaten by double figures too?

The Rooster wrote:

Brogan certainly has tunnel vision when he gets the ball, and always has had. He only looks up to pass when he gets into trouble. I was sure he'd be less greedy when his brother played alongside him, but that wasnt the case v Offaly.

Brogan reminds me of Cavan's Larry Reilly. Larry is a fine player who can kick some great scores but the minute he gets the ball, his head goes down and he starts to run towards the goal, not thinking about passing at all. Larry has been doing this for ten years now and has gotten away with it but I think they should try and knock it out of Brogan before it goes too far.

popebenny16

Lemlin wrote:

Maybe if Dublin had got to the final we'd have seen if they'd have lost by double figures. .

Jack O'Connor dosnt think so anyway.

Smarmore

blackbelt wrote:

MMM,how many matches have Dublin won in Croke Park?Out of their last 14 games in CP,They have won 9,drawn 2 and lost 3.Far from Croker Chokers.I'd hardly call a one point defeat a choke anyway.

Are you trying to claim this is an impressive record? As has been said since most of them were in the Leinster Championship which Mayo and Kerry don't compete in. The only way to compare them rationally is to judge them on the AI championship stages alone. Mayo have a superior record to Dublin in the AI championship and have had for a long time.

blackbelt wrote:

Funny you say that though,you built up your Louth team so tall and started talking about Laois before the ball was even thrown in against Wexford.What happened to the "favourites" was they met a team with some hope.Louth went to Croke Park and met some decent opposition and then choked when they were supposed to beat Wexford.So who are the real "chokers"?:D

Smarmore,you may take cheap shots but what score did Mayo lose by?...it was in the double figures.That is a score you will never see Dublin losing by but that is hypothetical.I just think the GAA should have these two teams on the same side of the draw to prevent another day at the circus in mid September.If Mayo are good enough,they will beat Kerry in the semi and hopefully come from 7 points down to stick it to Kerry and give us a great game as they did against Dublin.

Why do you always turn everything into a personal argument? It's not a cheap shot, I just thought you're opinion was childish and petty. Mayo beat you fair and square so just accept it. I mean you're trying to say the GAA should have these two teams on the same side of the draw!! How is that in any way rational? I could almost understand it if Mayo happened to be on an easy side of the draw and Dublin had pushed Kerry harder in an earler round, but Mayo beat Dublin!! And you're still coming out with that kind of rubbish!! And don't bring the Louth thing up again because it's not relevant. At least I can accept we were beaten.

blackbelt

Smarmore wrote:

Are you trying to claim this is an impressive record?

It is an impressive record actually.Firstly,I don't think Leinster teams are as weak as they are made out to be.Last years Championship showed that they can compete with teams from Ulster and Connaught with Longford accounting for Derry and Westmeath beating Galway.Dublin will always give any team a good game in Croke Park.Losing to Kerry by 5 points in 2004 and Tyrone by 7 points in 2005 didn't do any justice as to how closely contested those games really were.The Dublin-Offaly match was closely contested last year even though Dublin won by 9 points.The likes of Wexford,Meath and Laois are not teams you can laugh at easily.They are potential banana skins for any team.

So our record is impressive as far as I'm concerned.


Why do you always turn everything into a personal argument? It's not a cheap shot, I just thought you're opinion was childish and petty. Mayo beat you fair and square so just accept it. I mean you're trying to say the GAA should have these two teams on the same side of the draw!! How is that in any way rational? I could almost understand it if Mayo happened to be on an easy side of the draw and Dublin had pushed Kerry harder in an earler round, but Mayo beat Dublin!! And you're still coming out with that kind of rubbish!! And don't bring the Louth thing up again because it's not relevant. At least I can accept we were beaten.

Calling the Dubs Croker Jokers is a cheap shot.Dublin over the years have had a problem with closing out games they were well in control of.They are not jokers but have been heartbroken to lose games where they were 5-7 points up at one stage.It goes to show that we have the big potential to mop the floor with any team.Our only problem is consistency and this 10-15 minute period where Dublin take their foot off the pedal is where Dublin have paid for it.Its certainly an issue I think has to be ironed out more even if we did pull away from Meath in the crucial stages.

I am not turning this into a personal argument.That is more in your department.I have accepted Mayo beat Dublin fair and square and did not lose any sleep over it.Where is it written or typed that I said Mayo cheated or that the referee was on Mayos side?Again no substance in that argument.

Also I must note that you can't compare like with like.Mayo beating Dublin by a point does not equate into Dublin probably losing by double figures against Kerry.My argument is that Dublin consistently give good games compared to Mayo.Mayo in 2004 and 2006 Final against Kerry were no contests.Last years final was over as a contest after 20 minutes with Mayos brace of goals before half time giving them a glimmer of hope.In saying this I think it is a AI Final and Kerry issue for Mayo.My mother even pointed out that the Mayo teams body language suggested they were not relaxed and that was after 3 minutes of them entering the pitch before the game started.

Mayo fans will admit that last years final was a disappointing advertisment for the games.I am sure they would admit that they would rather lose out in a semi final to Kerry rather than the final itself and save themselves the horrible predicament they may build up too much hope only to be completely shattered.The idea of putting Mayo and Kerry on the same side of the draw on purpose this year may seem unethical but I'd rather see a very entertaining AI Final as opposed to a mis-match.Mayo fans could see if Mayo really are better than Kerry or not in a quarter Final or Semi-Final.

To be champions you have to prove you can beat any team at any time at any stage in a competition,however,the GAA should take into account that 2 of the last 3 Finals were bloody awful and hard to swallow.I have Mayo routes and although it pains me to say all this,I am a fan who wants nothing more than to see entertaining Finals in September.

blackbelt

Sorry folks,please read the first line of the quote and the paragraph after in the box.I made a mistake with the quoting.

Lemlin

blackbelt wrote:

Calling the Dubs Croker Jokers is a cheap shot.Dublin over the years have had a problem with closing out games they were well in control of.They are not jokers but have been heartbroken to lose games where they were 5-7 points up at one stage.It goes to show that we have the big potential to mop the floor with any team.Our only problem is consistency and this 10-15 minute period where Dublin take their foot off the pedal is where Dublin have paid for it.Its certainly an issue I think has to be ironed out more even if we did pull away from Meath in the crucial stages.
a fan who wants nothing more than to see entertaining Finals in September.

You really are a gas man.

Dublin have the potential to wipe the floor with any team eh? So why haven't they been able to beat Tyrone, Armagh, Kerry or Armagh? Why have they always fallen at the second last hurdle, not even the last hurdle?

Because they obviously don't have the potential. They haven't even reached an All-Ireland final in ten years. How can you say the potential is there to wipe the floor with any team?

blackbelt

Dublin moved 5 points up against Tyrone in 05 (the year Tyrone won it) who knows what would have happened if Mossy Quinn scored that goal 5-10 minutes before the break.Tyrone could have been deflated.Tyrone were clearly on the ropes at that stage and the break in play was their saviour.This year we were guilty of it again in February while we demolished Cork and Fermanagh in March.

Dublin went 7 points up against Mayo at one stage last year who made the final.These are big teams,the stronger teams in the country.In 2002 we were thumping Armagh around until Cluxton got sent off.That upset our game big time.

Funny you should mention Armagh though,we haven't met them in the Championship in years so maybe you should delete them off your list.

Its all about concentration which Dublin have had a bad problem with over the years.If that problem could somehow be solved,Dublin could be a stronger force than they already are.

Smarmore

sorry blackbelt but you just have the blinkers on when it comes to Dublin. It's an insult to Mayo what you're suggesting. It's also overstating Dublins status. Why not put Tyrone, Armagh, Donegal, Cork, Galway on the other side of the draw too? They would have as much right to be there. The way you're talking Laois shouldn't be allowed to play Dublin in the Leinster final after what happened last year. They got annihilated that day but it doesn't mean that will happen again this year. I can't believe anyone could even come up with such a ridiculous idea as what you're talking about. At the end of day if anyone else is good enough to beat Mayo then they will. I can't see Mayo getting to the Final this year anyway but they have every right to be there if they do. I know you'll get into hysterics if I say this but I think Kerry would wipe the floor with Dublin if they got them in the All-Ireland final or at any other stage. Dublin can't play for 35 minutes a half against the likes of Offally, what makes you think they could do it against Kerry?

blackbelt

Smarmore,I do not intend to insult Mayo.Having Mayo roots myself,it would be ridiculous to do so intentionally.it is painful to watch Kerry annihilate Mayo twice in the final in the last three years and for the neutrals as well as everybody in the country wants to see a real entertaining final.Given Mayo-Kerry track record of entertaining AI Finals,I think my point of view is valid.The only thing about my opinion that is conflicting is that if the GAA were to do so,they'd be open to extreme criticism from both sets of fans as it would be deemed not be in the interest of fairness.

As a Mayo fan (after Dublin) I am saying this and it has nothing to do with Dublin or Dublin blinkers so lets get that straight before we move on.I have no problem with Mayo beating Dublin fair and square in a quarter or semi final although I'd obviously be disappointed,I'd be happy for Mayo as I was last year.However I would not be rubbing my hands in delight if it was going to be a Mayo-Kerry final.I would if it was Mayo-Tyrone,Mayo-Galway,Mayo-Cork etc.

As far as Dublin-Laois is concerned,well the stakes of the Leinster Championship are far less greater than the AI Championship.I never mentioned Dublin and Laois being intentionally put on the same side of the draw anyway and for the record,I'd expect this match to be close even though Laois didn't look impressive the last day.

As for your opinion on Kerry-Dublin,well we all know what happened the last time you made a prediction.:D However this time your opinion merits feasiblility although I think it would be a tight game if they met.I am not going into any hysterics either as Kerry are a strong side who I'd expect to beat Dublin.

Dublin didn't play to the best of their ability against Offaly but you seem to forget that it was only a week before they came through a grueling match with Meath.A lot of the players were bruised and banged up as was acknowledged straight after the game.Its no wonder they couldn't physically go like they would have done usually and the referee which even you must admit,was shocking.I don't think we can play for 35 minutes a half,more like 20.