Sick read or misread?

CaptainNemo

Last night, €1-€1 PLO, live. I have €700+, other guy has about €300.

I'm dealt 2234 or 2245, I forget which. Suits are irrelevant. There's €5 on the blinds and there are 5 or 6 callers including me.

The flop is 28K rainbow. It's checked to me and I bet the pot and get 1 caller in later position. At this point I'm putting him on top 2 or a higher set.

Turn is the case 2. I check and the other guy checks behind.

River is a blank. I bet close to the pot size, €100. The other guy thinks a while and then flat calls...and shows over KKxx for the big full house!

I was completely stunned and demanded to know how he didn't raise on any street! He looked incredibly pleased with himself and said something like "I thought you had 4 of a kind." After he left later on people said that he probably just didn't realize what he had. I still don't know.

I don't think it's possible to put someone on 4 of a kind here given the action. With hindsight my check on the turn was bad and if I'd bet out then I would have gotten his whole stack on the river. But I still can't believe he didn't bet the turn or raise the river in this hand and I can't believe I hit quads against the best possible full house and didn't get paid off.

Would anyone else NOT have raised on the river in this spot, with this guy's hand?

BigCityBanker

If im you I bet the turn? If you had a higher set as part of his range then you need to bet this.

If im him i go broke.

CaptainNemo

BigCityBanker wrote:

If im you I bet the turn? If you had a higher set as part of his range then you need to bet this.

Agreed. Through reading threads on here I've realized a weakness in my game is a tendency to automatically check when I make the nuts, even when I have a read that someone else has made a strong hand too. This hand is the clearest example yet of this tendency costing me a fair bit of money...going to work on this. Basically I didn't take any time to think about it. If I'd thought about it I would have confirmed my initial thought that he probably had a set and therefore a full house at this point.

Everyone at the table said they would have gone broke in this spot if they were him and that's why they suggested maybe he hadn't realized what he had in his hand.

BigCityBanker

CaptainNemo wrote:

Agreed. Through reading threads on here I've realized a weakness in my game is a tendency to automatically check when I make the nuts,

I remeber posting a series of hands up here where ppl continually told me my betsizing was awful. I think its something that ppl need to consciously work on.

Tar.Aldarion

If you were looking at your cards drooling, I probably just call.

CaptainNemo

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

If you were looking at your cards drooling, I probably just call.

I don't think I gave off any obvious indications of super strength but who knows. One possible factor is that I'd just recently doubled through this guy when he put me all in on the river with a house and I hummed and hawed for about 20 seconds before calling with the 2nd nuts (AK on AKK board - I was genuinely afraid he had AA).

So after that performance he may have put me down as super-tight? I don't know.

Tar.Aldarion

That and also, I would have put you on a set on the flop, ie you have 888 or 222, the turn gives one of them quads and he may genuinely have just thought you had it with the check.

CaptainNemo

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

That and also, I would have put you on a set on the flop, ie you have 888 or 222, the turn gives one of them quads and he may genuinely have just thought you had it with the check.

I wasn't sure I agreed with the people who were saying he didn't realize how good his hand was, because he'd been playing pretty solid all night from what I'd seen. Maybe he really did think I had quads. I'm kicking myself for checking the turn.

sitout

i was at the table last night when this happened. oh how we all laughed ! i thought you played the hand perfectly maybe a bet on the turn might have extracted a few quid more, however when the you turn quads its not usually a bad thing to slow down and let people catch up as if they do you will win a huge pot. the player in question here just did not have a clue what was going on the look of embarresment and bemuezment on his face when he showed his cards was clear to all . for if he did put you on quads as he said why did he call at all! your face was priceless when he showed you his cards anyone would think you lost the pot instead of actually scooping a 200 hundred odd pot ,you almost went on tilt over it.
still if i might say one thing here i would not be to hard on players of his ilk at the table. ego is a huge thing here and a bruised ego is hard to mend . if you remember this guy sat down with 70 euro approx and after one hour he was up to 475/485 now he eventually lost it all you took most of it btw! the point im trying to make is its better to keep the "happy gambler"..... happy! i know you did not insult him and i know you were pissed off the way the hand played out but he did get a little embarresed about the whole thing and ended up going all in blind a half an hour later for 70ish euro utg.
happy gamblers are needed to fuel the game imo, without them it would be fairly teadious and alot more difficult to turn a shilling( as if it was not hard enough) . well done last night btw you were top of the tree in earnings and left with a nice profit. i on the other hand spend all night chasing and when the omaha game broke @ 4ish i was up the princly sum of 8euro!
siobhan

Chucky the tree

check on the turn is shocking.

busted flush

its easy to say the check on the turn was a bad move . i honestly like it but in omaha your damed if you do and your damed if you dont! obviously your cheesed off with the guys lack of know how but me i love playing against these type of donkeys! where was this game on by the way? ,is it a regular game?, whats the standard like in general?, any good players bar your self obviously ?, what time does ot go onto? ,whats the rake like?
thanks in advance
bf.

Chucky the tree

why do you like it? If we bet there is no way he is folding, you can argue about how much to bet but he has too bet. Its clear villan has a made hand, it's either a set of 8's, K's or a pair of 8's and K's. All of those hands are calling a turn bet.

Checking has absolutly no benefit too us.

Tar.Aldarion

Checking turn in this case means, oooh aby, I have a hand, and he knew it wasn't kings full. The OP said he was a solid player but the other guy disagree, which was it?

CaptainNemo

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

The OP said he was a solid player but the other guy disagree, which was it?

I don't know him too well as a player. My impression from that night was that I'd seen him lay down some decent hands and he was also up a whole bundle of money.

CaptainNemo

busted flush wrote:

its easy to say the check on the turn was a bad move . i honestly like it but in omaha your damed if you do and your damed if you dont! obviously your cheesed off with the guys lack of know how but me i love playing against these type of donkeys! where was this game on by the way? ,is it a regular game?, whats the standard like in general?, any good players bar your self obviously ?, what time does ot go onto? ,whats the rake like?
thanks in advance
bf.

I wasn't so much cheesed off as stunned. I couldn't work out if I'd seen a stroke of genius or not. I wouldn't describe this guy (or anyone else at the table) as a donkey.

This was at the Macau, it's a regular cash game but is usually Hold'em, but when all the players agree then a round of each game often gets going.

CaptainNemo

sitout wrote:

still if i might say one thing here i would not be to hard on players of his ilk at the table. ego is a huge thing here and a bruised ego is hard to mend . if you remember this guy sat down with 70 euro approx and after one hour he was up to 475/485 now he eventually lost it all you took most of it btw! the point im trying to make is its better to keep the "happy gambler"..... happy! i know you did not insult him and i know you were pissed off the way the hand played out but he did get a little embarresed about the whole thing and ended up going all in blind a half an hour later for 70ish euro utg.
happy gamblers are needed to fuel the game imo, without them it would be fairly teadious and alot more difficult to turn a shilling( as if it was not hard enough) . well done last night btw you were top of the tree in earnings and left with a nice profit. i on the other hand spend all night chasing and when the omaha game broke @ 4ish i was up the princly sum of 8euro!
siobhan

Like i said above I wasn't so much pissed off as stunned and trying to work it out. I didn't mean to make him feel bad or embarrassed and I try to never insult people at the table whether I win or lose because like you said there's no point, if someone hands you a bad beat you should compliment them and move on and hope they play the same in future. I just couldn't control my reaction!

Where were you sitting at the table that night, were we in any hands together? I had a great Omaha game, I basically couldn't miss...

cooker3

Why do you care?

NickyOD

I once saw a player cold call the river with a royal flush with chips behind. He was so excited about his hand he just shouted out call and forgot about raising.

5starpool

Chucky the tree wrote:

why do you like it? If we bet there is no way he is folding, you can argue about how much to bet but he has too bet. Its clear villan has a made hand, it's either a set of 8's, K's or a pair of 8's and K's. All of those hands are calling a turn bet.

Checking has absolutly no benefit too us.

If he had top 2 then why would he call a turn bet? It is a dry board, and he would be splitting the pot at best at this point and behind every other possible hand including AAxx.

To me it sounds like this guy was just a bit of a mug. I sometimes bet the turn, sometimes check. Against an idiot I more than likely bet about 2/3 pot.

CaptainNemo

cooker3 wrote:

Why do you care?

Why do you ask?

CaptainNemo

NickyOD wrote:

I once saw a player cold call the river with a royal flush with chips behind. He was so excited about his hand he just shouted out call and forgot about raising.

I checked the double nuts on the river in a big pot in Omaha 8/b online. I was distracted by TV nudity.

CelticPhantom

CaptainNemo wrote:

I checked the double nuts on the river in a big pot in Omaha 8/b online. I was distracted by TV nudity.

Are you sure it wasn't the TV nudity that was responsible for your double nuts:eek:

Apologies in advance.

CaptainNemo

CelticPhantom wrote:

Are you sure it wasn't the TV nudity that was responsible for your double nuts:eek:

I thought they felt a bit strange. That's why I had to check them. :rolleyes:

Chucky the tree

5starpool wrote:

If he had top 2 then why would he call a turn bet? It is a dry board, and he would be splitting the pot at best at this point and behind every other possible hand including AAxx.

To me it sounds like this guy was just a bit of a mug. I sometimes bet the turn, sometimes check. Against an idiot I more than likely bet about 2/3 pot.

If he's folding to a turn bet then why would he call a river bet? He could easily put on us on a set of 8's.

I'd bet about half the pot here, no one is going to fold a set and it allows you build the pot.

Moro Man

CaptainNemo wrote:

Last night, €1-€1 PLO, live. I have €700+, other guy has about €300.

I'm dealt 2234 or 2245, I forget which. Suits are irrelevant. There's €5 on the blinds and there are 5 or 6 callers including me.

The flop is 28K rainbow. It's checked to me and I bet the pot and get 1 caller in later position. At this point I'm putting him on top 2 or a higher set.

Turn is the case 2. I check and the other guy checks behind.

River is a blank. I bet close to the pot size, €100. The other guy thinks a while and then flat calls...and shows over KKxx for the big full house!

I was completely stunned and demanded to know how he didn't raise on any street! He looked incredibly pleased with himself and said something like "I thought you had 4 of a kind." After he left later on people said that he probably just didn't realize what he had. I still don't know.

I don't think it's possible to put someone on 4 of a kind here given the action. With hindsight my check on the turn was bad and if I'd bet out then I would have gotten his whole stack on the river. But I still can't believe he didn't bet the turn or raise the river in this hand and I can't believe I hit quads against the best possible full house and didn't get paid off.

Would anyone else NOT have raised on the river in this spot, with this guy's hand?

A few questions.......

1. Do you stand the raise on the flop?

2. What hand can he put you on if you bet when you hit quads?

3. With what hands can you bet the flop/check the turn/bet the river?(from his perspective)

4. With what hands will you call the all in on the river?(from his perspective)

Answer these and you may see why he didnt reraise....


PS The Two Principles Of Omaha

1. If there is only one possible hand out to beat you its there

2. Reread Principle No 1

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Moro Man

I don't think it's possible to put someone on 4 of a kind here given the action. With hindsight my check on the turn was bad and if I'd bet out then I would have gotten his whole stack on the river. But I still can't believe he didn't bet the turn or raise the river in this hand and I can't believe I hit quads against the best possible full house and didn't get paid off.[/COLOR]


This is the bit I'm beginning to see more and more of...... You hit your one outer and complain:(

I like to refer to it as the

Whinge and Win Phenomena:)

And its spreading like wildfire

Lazare

Moro Man wrote:

A few questions.......

1. Do you stand the raise on the flop? There was no raise

2. What hand can he put you on if you bet when you hit quads?88xx/xx82/xxK2/bluff, more likely than xx22

3. With what hands can you bet the flop/check the turn/bet the river?(from his perspective)as above

4. With what hands will you call the all in on the river?(from his perspective)as above

Answer these and you may see why he didnt reraise....he should be pushing


PS The Two Principles Of Omaha

1. If there is only one possible hand out to beat you its there LOL

2. Reread Principle No 1 I did, and I'm still lol'ing

:eek: :eek: :eek:

.

Connie69

Lazare wrote:

.

I meant if there was a raise on the flop.


For the other hands "more likely" refer to the two principles of omaha;)

corkie123

to be honest why did he not reraise on flop. i think he did not know how big his hd was on the flop .myself i would have gone busted on turn. check reraise pot was the action he should have done on flop then its was up to u to call or reraise him all in there or just fold your low set but in hind sight he was very lucky to just lose wat he did .i dont think any of the top omaha players in the world would not go bust there only the players who do not know the omaha game well could lose so little .not just he saying he knew u had the quads is a load of bull .

PokerPissTaker

Men spend theres around a poker table and don't manage to hit one outers Let alone to turn around and have neck to ponder as to why you don't take all his money Some people I tell ya....:D

CaptainNemo

Moro Man wrote:

A few questions.......

1. Do you stand the raise on the flop?

No if he raises on the flop I fold because there are only 2 hands he can have.

Moro Man wrote:

2. What hand can he put you on if you bet when you hit quads?

22, 28, 88, K2, with 88 or K2 the most likely.

Moro Man wrote:

3. With what hands can you bet the flop/check the turn/bet the river?(from his perspective)

Again I think 88 or 22 or possibly K2 are the most likely.

Moro Man wrote:

4. With what hands will you call the all in on the river?(from his perspective)

I will call with K2 or 88. It would be very hard for me to put him on KK given the action.

Moro Man wrote:

Answer these and you may see why he didnt reraise....

I see the point you're trying to make but I don't agree with your reasoning.

Moro Man wrote:

PS The Two Principles Of Omaha

1. If there is only one possible hand out to beat you its there

2. Reread Principle No 1

:eek: :eek: :eek:

I don't think that's a good principle to apply in all circumstances. This happens to be one of the situations where this principle will save you money. But I think 9 times out of 10 in the above spot the guy has the best hand and should raise.

CaptainNemo

Moro Man wrote:

This is the bit I'm beginning to see more and more of...... You hit your one outer and complain:(

I like to refer to it as the

Whinge and Win Phenomena:)

And its spreading like wildfire

I know it seems like bad manners or ungracious or something. But the point of the thread is that I'm trying to figure out how he could possibly have not raised, was it brilliant play or bad play, that's all. I'm not whinging but I really want to know if there are players out there who would not raise the river here and why.

Moro Man

CaptainNemo wrote:

No if he raises on the flop I fold because there are only 2 hands he can have.



22, 28, 88, K2, with 88 or K2 the most likely.



Again I think 88 or 22 or possibly K2 are the most likely.



I will call with K2 or 88. It would be very hard for me to put him on KK given the action.



I see the point you're trying to make but I don't agree with your reasoning.




I don't think that's a good principle to apply in all circumstances. This happens to be one of the situations where this principle will save you money. But I think 9 times out of 10 in the above spot the guy has the best hand and should raise.

The principle is a bit tongue in cheek and this situation is an extreme example but you answered your own question by saying that you either realistically think that he puts you on 88 or 22...... One hand he beats the other he doesnt. As for not raising earlier he may have planned on doing so but when you bet the river he may have got a vibe that you loooked too confident and a lot of players would trust their instincts. I've had players over the years call in these situations and say I know you have it and I'd believe them.

CaptainNemo

Moro Man wrote:

The principle is a bit tongue in cheek and this situation is an extreme example but you answered your own question by saying that you either realistically think that he puts you on 88 or 22...... One hand he beats the other he doesnt. As for not raising earlier he may have planned on doing so but when you bet the river he may have got a vibe that you loooked too confident and a lot of players would trust their instincts. I've had players over the years call in these situations and say I know you have it and I'd believe them.

I talked to the guy last night as he was back in the club again and we were playing Texas this time. He did say that he got a feeling that he shouldn't raise me. Other people were still sticking to their opinion that he doesn't understand Omaha properly yet. So, who knows, maybe both are true - maybe he really did get a bad feeling and just call because of that, not because he thought the action through and logically put me on quads but just because of his gut.

In any case it was an interesting hand for me to think through. I hope I didn't come across as whining too much about not getting paid off! I was a big winner that night and it wasn't so much the extra couple of hundred euro that bothered me, it was that I just couldn't believe that this player could read me for the nuts in this spot! Maybe I was drooling and didn't realize it.