Father died leaving no will...but...

Taz81

Hi all,
Posted this logged in to my husbands account so sorry for double post!

If anyone can shed light on where I/We stand on this , I'd be very grateful.

The situation is this. My father Died almost 2 years ago without leaving a will. There isnt a huge estate other than a property valued at around 750,000 euro. This is to be split between me, and my two sisters. Even tho there was no will, he would have split the estate this way anyway.

The thing is this. The day before he died he expressed to me that this property not be sold for another 5 years, until my youngest sister turned 25 years old. He asked me to get it drawn up by his solicitor and he would sign it and get it witnessed. I contacted the solicitor that evening who expressed a real concern for such a clause, stating he thought my father was not thinking through the consequences of leaving the burden of a house on a 19 year old girl. But my father died a few hours later and the will was never drawn up. After he died I told my 2 sisters what had happened with this clause Although the 2 of them live in the house, and i am the only one who doesnt live there, I agreed to let them stay in the house in accordance with his wishes. It is no secret his mind was absolutely not all there when he made this decision and it was almost certainly a last gasp attempt at trying to provide a roof over his youngest's head for as long as possible.

2 years on, A situation has arisen and I need my 3rd of the estate. After watching a gradual decline in the general state of the property since my father died, I think it is absolutely time to sell. The stagnant market as well is another factor in that while it was appreciating i didnt really mind, but now the price is falling. I'm the only daughter with a child, and I rent a house costing 1300 per month with my husband, while my 2 sisters live in that house rent free. Because we have a child, it was impossible for us to live there as well. There are other factors also.

My question is this. Is there anything they can do to stop the sale of the house even if they dont aggree with it? The house is still in my father's name and probate has not been taken out yet. On what grounds can they object?

Sorry for the long post...!! Thankyou

llester

I think you have two separate issues....a moral one and a legal one....

The Moral one would be two allow your youngest sister to remain there until she attains the age of 25 because you know that's what your father would have wanted.

However, the legal issue is that your father died a widower and intestate, which means his estate would fall to his children and should be divided among them. You are all adults and so there is not problem in doing this. Legally you are all entitled to your share. Your father made a wish and it is not in a will.

Has anyone extracted Letters of Administration yet? If not, that's the first thing you need to do (your solicitor will do this for you). Most solicitors take their time in extracting Grants of Probate/Letters of Administration because they are quite cumbersome, plus they take a while to issue, so chances are they'll have another 6 months to a year in the property before it can be sold and the proceeds divided between you all.

You are entitled to your share of the property end of. However, from my experience these issues become extremely bitter and you have the danger of losing both your sisters over it. I would suggest you tell them it's time to sell the property and you're giving them a 6 months window as a heads up and tread carefully. Though you're doing nothing legally wrong, you don't want to upset people either.

ballooba

Best to avoid involving solicitors at all costs. The only person that benefits from the situation developing that way is the solicitors. Try and resolve the situation amicably and without raising emotions.

Explain that you know it was your fathers wishes etc. and that they are within their rights to stay in the house but that it would really help you out if you could come to some other arrangement. (Morally, not legally)

If, and only if, you are prepared to move into the house and have all five of you living there. Then you could suggest this to gain leverage, make sure you don't pose it as a threat though (or make it sound like a threat). You have to be prepared to go through with this if you are suggesting it though, etc.

If it goes down the route of an argument you are all going to lose out in several ways, including financially.

I would suggest looking at more than one way of resolving the issue btw. i.e. they pay 1/3 market rent to you, you all vacate the property rent it and split rent three ways, your sisters buy you out, you sell the house and split the money three ways.

is_that_so

I would suggest that if you can, sit down first and plan out your own thoughts on it. Then sit down with the others to talk about all the options. Try and do it without emotions getting in the way, which can be very hard with family. Be very careful, estates can be the most divisive things of all in a family. But remember each one of you has an equal share in the estate.

I would actually say you need to get a solicitor to explain what can be done. S/he may also be able to facilitate a discussion on what can be done. Yes they do charge a fee but as a proportion of the final settlement it is worth it providing you get a good one. We had the same problem with my father dying intestate. Thankfully we agreed immediately to split it between all of us. The solicitor facilitated probate, dealt with all the other outstanding issues and handed us all cheques. Probate took us six months and can be extremely messy.

ballooba

I meant more in terms of falling out and having to communicate through solicitors or go to arbitration. Best to reach a solution that suits all parties. A solicitor could provide advice on potential solutions. One should be enough between the three parties.

llester

Not to bicker between ourselves, but have you ever tried to extract Letters of Administration without a solicitor? It can of course be done, but it's a chore you really don't need. And the house cannot be sold without one.

If you decide to go for the 1/3 of the market rent, put a Lease in place, so you all no where you stand. Make the term of the Lease the time it will take your youngest sister to reach the age of 25 (or whatever your father wanted).

However, don't forget that if you are adamant that you want the property sold and your share of your father's estate, you are absolutely entitled to that.

Taz81

Thats really helpful stuff everone, thankyou.

llester wrote:

Not to bicker between ourselves, but have you ever tried to extract Letters of Administration without a solicitor? It can of course be done, but it's a chore you really don't need. And the house cannot be sold without one.

I rang the probate office today and they are sending me out the application form to extract Letters of Administration myself. Am I mad to do this, should I just get my solicitor to do it?

And also I am adament that the house must be sold, so renting it out is not an option. So there is no basis really that they can stop the sale of the house is there?

ballooba

Taz81 wrote:

And also I am adament that the house must be sold, so renting it out is not an option. So there is no basis really that they can stop the sale of the house is there?

There doesn't appear to be any legal obstacle to calling in your share, no.

llester

Taz81 wrote:

Thats really helpful stuff everone, thankyou.



I rang the probate office today and they are sending me out the application form to extract Letters of Administration myself. Am I mad to do this, should I just get my solicitor to do it?

And also I am adament that the house must be sold, so renting it out is not an option. So there is no basis really that they can stop the sale of the house is there?

Hi Taz. The Probate Office is a bit of hit and miss. If you're a normal Joe Bloggs, they may be a little more helpful to you, but I know they put solicitor's applications through the ringer. See what you think when you get the forms. It is cheaper to do it yourself and you can give it your immediate attention, so it would be quicker than having a solicitor do it, but it isn't easy. Give it a go and see how you get on.

Your sisters may want to discuss the matter with a solicitor, but at the end of the day, your father died intestate. Only things that are put in a will must be adhered to, everything else is just a wish list and it's a matter for the family whether they want to honour them. I can't remember from your original post, but I'm assuming your mother has also passed away?

As regards your sisters, I don't mean to stick my nose in, but please tread carefully. I get a feeling that not only are you annoyed that your sisters are getting a free ride, but also that they're treating your and your father's generosity rather ungratefully by not maintaining the property. But just remember, they lost their father too and at 19 it will be pretty scary for your younger sister to realise she no longer has a base. You don't want to lose your sisters for the sake of money and with the best intentions in the world, I've seen so many families split up over similar circumstances. Hope I'm not stepping out of line or patronising you by saying this.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

llester

Taz81 wrote:

Thats really helpful stuff everone, thankyou.



I rang the probate office today and they are sending me out the application form to extract Letters of Administration myself. Am I mad to do this, should I just get my solicitor to do it?

And also I am adament that the house must be sold, so renting it out is not an option. So there is no basis really that they can stop the sale of the house is there?

Hi Taz. The Probate Office is a bit of hit and miss. If you're a normal Joe Bloggs, they may be a little more helpful to you, but I know they put solicitor's applications through the ringer. See what you think when you get the forms. It is cheaper to do it yourself and you can give it your immediate attention, so it would be quicker than having a solicitor do it, but it isn't easy. Give it a go and see how you get on.

Your sisters may want to discuss the matter with a solicitor, but at the end of the day, your father died intestate. Only things that are put in a will must be adhered to, everything else is just a wish list and it's a matter for the family whether they want to honour them. I can't remember from your original post, but I'm assuming your mother has also passed away?

As regards your sisters, I don't mean to stick my nose in, but please tread carefully. I get a feeling that not only are you annoyed that your sisters are getting a free ride, but also that they're treating your and your father's generosity rather ungratefully by not maintaining the property. But just remember, they lost their father too and at 19 it will be pretty scary for your younger sister to realise she no longer has a base. You don't want to lose your sisters for the sake of money and with the best intentions in the world, I've seen so many families split up over similar circumstances. Hope I'm not stepping out of line or patronising you by saying this.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

Our man in Havana

You forgot about the inland revenue affidavit. This is a schedule of assets and is certified by the revenue. You cannot go near the probate office until this is done and I found that to be the most time consuming part. Also if you submit the application as a lay person you will be called for an interview in the probate office also. It is not a quick thing to do. But if you have the nerve by all means go for it.

llester

Bond-007 wrote:

You forgot about the inland revenue affidavit. This is a schedule of assets and is certified by the revenue. You cannot go near the probate office until this is done and I found that to be the most time consuming part. Also if you submit the application as a lay person you will be called for an interview in the probate office also. It is not a quick thing to do. But if you have the nerve by all means go for it.

Yeah, I think with a lay person the Probate Office tell you all about the Inland Revenue Affidavit though, don't they?

I didn't realise there was an interview process, good to see the Probate Office aren't just putting the professionals through the ringer