Court, getting sworn in.

Par72

Several years ago I had the misfortune to sit on a jury in the Four Courts. Before I could take part in the jury I was sworn in ( I can't remember exactly what I had to swear to) whilst holding the bible. I remember that other religious texts were available for various different religions.
If someone is an Atheist how are they sworn in? Indeed, isn't the notion of telling the truth dependent on people's christian beliefs (I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth so help me God)? If one is not a christian what motive is there to tell the truth in court if you are not living in fear of God?

Par72

Par72 wrote:

Indeed, isn't the notion of telling the truth dependent on people's christian beliefs

Er, no.

If one is not a christian what motive is there to tell the truth in court if you are not living in fear of God?

... that's not really a serious question is it?

Hivemind187

Par72 wrote:

Several years ago I had the misfortune to sit on a jury in the Four Courts. Before I could take part in the jury I was sworn in ( I can't remember exactly what I had to swear to) whilst holding the bible. I remember that other religious texts were available for various different religions.
If someone is an Atheist how are they sworn in? Indeed, isn't the notion of telling the truth dependent on people's christian beliefs (I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth so help me God)? If one is not a christian what motive is there to tell the truth in court if you are not living in fear of God?

I had to give evidence once and was advised by the solicitor to "fake it" because asking for any of the following would be prejudicial to impartiality

The Rights of Man - Thomas Paine
Origin of the Species - Darwin
The Satanic Bible - Anton Szandor LaVey

Go figure?

Par72

bluewolf wrote:

Er, no.



... that's not really a serious question is it?

I mean in relation to swearing in on the bible, of course there is motivation to tell the truth but what I'm saying is that it shouldn't be because you swore you would on the bible (especially if you don't even believe in the bible or god).

Hivemind187

Par72 wrote:

I mean in relation to swearing in on the bible, of course there is motivation to tell the truth but what I'm saying is that it shouldn't be because you swore you would on the bible (especially if you don't even believe in the bible or god).

They do actually give you the option of swearing on something important to you or just simply "swearing you will".

Frankly, its so much pomp and ceremony since no one takes it seriously from a legal perspective. Its merely a tradition and a requireent before testimony can be given. A hangover from more theosophic times.

enda1

Surely you should be able swear in on the constitution or the book of statutes (or whatever its called) seeing as these are the basis on whihch the court sits???

Zombrex

enda1 wrote:

Surely you should be able swear in on the constitution or the book of statutes (or whatever its called) seeing as these are the basis on whihch the court sits???

Was about to say the same thing. If i was ever sworn in and I had to place my hand on something I would ask to be sworn in holding the Irish Constitution.

Red Hand

I'll have my hand on a box of twinkies...:)

Zombrex

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote:

I'll have my hand on a box of twinkies...:)

Not very symbolic now is it?

18AD

I'd be happy to swear on the Principia Discordia. It'd be a joke.

Not to mention lying is a natural process.

jhegarty

From:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/justice/witnesses/the_procedure_for_being_a_witness


You will stand in the witness box and the court registrar will hand you a Bible, which you must hold. The registrar will then ask you to repeat the following oath after him/her, "I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

If you wish to make the affirmation (suitable for those who are not Christians), then you must tell the registrar. The words of the affirmation are "I, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence that I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

Winters

I'd ask for a copy of the constitution to swear on, probably the best option really.

Dades

If you're the type that would fear God after swearing on the bible, you're unlikely to be the type found lying in court. On the flip side usually the ones who are telling porkies are a lot more concerned with saving their hides than what they put their hand on.

Zombrex

The Atheist wrote:

If you're the type that would fear God after swearing on the bible, you're unlikely to be the type found lying in court.

True, but if you are an atheists is swearing in on a Bible in a court of law not a form of lie?

Zaph

jhegarty wrote:

From:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/justice/witnesses/the_procedure_for_being_a_witness


You will stand in the witness box and the court registrar will hand you a Bible, which you must hold. The registrar will then ask you to repeat the following oath after him/her, "I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

If you wish to make the affirmation (suitable for those who are not Christians), then you must tell the registrar. The words of the affirmation are "I, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence that I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

Yeah, but that's only if you're giving evidence, not sitting on a jury.

When I did jury duty I just accepted the swearing-in part as a formality that everyone goes through and went ahead with it. If they gave me the phone book I would have sworn on that too, and probably would have been happier with that than the Bible, but it wasn't really worth getting over-excited about. What I swore on wasn't going to change how I behaved on the jury or sway my opinion on whether the defendent was innocent or guilty.

Dades

Wicknight wrote:

True, but if you are an atheists is swearing in on a Bible in a court of law not a form of lie?

Well I was wondering about that.

Could some sneaky defence lawyer introduce dramatic evidence late in the proceedings showing you active on the A/A forum, after having sworn on the bible, thereby making your testimony INVALID (Your Honour), and put you in contempt...?

Doubt it myself.

Tim Robbins

Wicknight wrote:

True, but if you are an atheists is swearing in on a Bible in a court of law not a form of lie?

Wicknight, you should bring 'The God Delusion' and swear to Richard Dawkins

Asiaprod

enda1 wrote:

Surely you should be able swear in on the constitution or the book of statutes (or whatever its called) seeing as these are the basis on whihch the court sits???

Love that idea, never thought of it:)

Zombrex

Tim Robbins wrote:

Wicknight, you should bring 'The God Delusion' and swear to Richard Dawkins

Sure I might just bring along the man himself, and wear with my lips puckered up against his ass ... now there is a mental image for ya!!

Tim Robbins

Wicknight wrote:

Sure I might just bring along the man himself, and wear with my lips puckered up against his ass ... now there is a mental image for ya!!

I just hope it's not a "child abuse" case

Red Hand

Now, who says Aethiests don't have a sense of humour? I think that ass comment deserves to be copied and pasted into that Joyless Aethiest's thread...:)

Dades

Perhaps rather than swearing on the "truth", one could swear on the "falsifiable theory with the most objective and empirical evidence".

Hivemind187

Winters wrote:

I'd ask for a copy of the constitution to swear on, probably the best option really.

Only if you agree with all of its contents.

Zillah

I was on a jury, and I remember that I was sworn in, but I honestly don't remember if there was a Bible involved. Sounds like the kind of thing I'd kick up a fuss about. As far as I can remember I had to raise my right hand and repeat something along the lines of "I do swear to carry out my duties with honesty and impartiality blahdy blah". Almost certain there was no bible involved.

Asiaprod

Tim Robbins wrote:

I just hope it's not a "child abuse" case

Was that ban really one week long!:D Time flies. By the way, welcome back.:)

PDN

jhegarty wrote:

If you wish to make the affirmation (suitable for those who are not Christians), then you must tell the registrar. The words of the affirmation are "I, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence that I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

There you unbelievers go hijacking our customs again.

The option to make an affirmation instead of swearing an oath, which Irish law adopted from the English, actually goes back to King William III (the gay Orangeman). Quakers refused to swear an oath because of their desire to obey the Bible: Above all, my brothers, do not swear—not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your "Yes" be yes, and your "No," no, or you will be condemned. (James 5:12) So King Billy let them swear an affirmation instead. http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=46841

p1k3y

Use of Bible in court room ??????
What about Jesus's "Do not judge, and you will not be judged,". This statement cancels the court system alone.
Ridiculous.

Splendour

Wicknight wrote:

Sure I might just bring along the man himself, and wear with my lips puckered up against his ass ... now there is a mental image for ya!!

I can hear it now; "on this ass I do solemnly swear..."

Wonder how Mr. Dawkins would feel about that

Zombrex

p1k3y wrote:

Use of Bible in court room ??????
What about Jesus's "Do not judge, and you will not be judged,". This statement cancels the court system alone.
Ridiculous.

Yes, I've read quite a few essays on various Christians sites trying to come to terms with that little paradox.

Zillah

Wicknight wrote:

Yes, I've read quite a few essays on various Christians sites trying to come to terms with that little paradox.

Jesus was an Anarchist? I don't blame him considering he was a Jew during Roman occupation of Jerusalem.