Hand Help (Low Content)

smurph

JP's €250 game deepstack 20K starting stack.

I have being going through this hand in my head. I will tell you results later....

Blinds are 100 200 and im on the Button with 23.5K, serial Raiser (really bad player, in fact awful) does his obligatory raise to 600, I look down at KhKd and re-raise to 1.5K, SB folds and BB re-raises to 5K.

Serial raiser goes away, I call. BB is a solid tight player, who is well able to hold his own, and has shown few hands. he has circa 23K aswell. We have been doing a big of chating about Boards etc., he wouldn't be huge poster but reads it quite a bit.

Flop comes down Qd 8s 7d. he asks me how much I have left, I count out 18.5 K he dwells for about a minute and bets 7K.

Whats your next move?
Why?

Mr.Plough

edit misread

but i probably shove and cry when i see his aces and celebrate when i hit running diamonds.


if you flat call your committed and will most likely have to shove/fold on the turn/river.


im not good enough to fold kings on this flop but maybe you are

cooker3

Well, first of all, would have raised it to 2k pf.
If he is a solid player, I don't see what you beat, only really AK.
It's a fold for me
I would push pf though

BobSloane

I think I would have got it in pre-flop. Now it looks like he has AA,the other 2 Ks,AK with the A of diamonds,QQ or maybe AQ. So you're really worried about 2 hands. Think its a big bonus here that you hold the K of diamonds.
Half his stack is in there so he's probably going to push the turn anyway. Don't think I'm good enough to get away from this but I'd rather taking control back preflop when theres only one hand to worry about

LuckyLloyd

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MacStacked

Tough spot..

He appears happy to get it all in, and there isnt very much you are ahead of.

He's not 4betting preflop with anything less than AK, QQ+ i would think..

Fold..

LuckyLloyd

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CaptainNemo

If you're going to fold kings here then you have to throw them away preflop. After you've called preflop you're basically saying "I don't believe you have aces so I call" so there's no reason to change your mind now. I don't think he's going to reraise to 5k preflop with AK or AQ. I even doubt he would do it with QQ (but in any case that hand has you crushed too after the flop).

I think he has aces. Did you call because you didn't think he has aces or because you did, but hoped to catch a king? I'd follow through with whatever your initial feeling about it was...

MacStacked

I think it is reasonably acceptable to expect AA, AK, KK, and QQ to be his range preflop. Do you think that he is not re-raising all of the above from the blinds most of the time?

As lloyd stated it is more likely he would flat call with 88-JJ pre-flop.

On this flop what hand out of his expected range is he continuation betting 3/4 of the pot with and in doing so telling us he is happy to play for stacks that we are in good shape against?

buck65

a very tough but necessary fold I put him on QQ

MacStacked

buck65 wrote:

a very tough but necessary fold I put him on QQ

Putting a player on a specific hand is nearly impossible and pretty pointless.

What we can do is assign the player a hand range given the info and make our best decision based on that.

careca

smurph wrote:

. BB is a solid tight player

As has been said, you can narrow his range down quite a bit if this is the case.

I reckon you're only beating AQ and splitting with KK and I can't see him reraising with AQ is the above is true. All the signals point towards AA but its hard to get away from.

A tiny point to add, when they ask how much have you left, it normally sets alarm bells ringing (for me anyway).

LuckyLloyd

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bops

i push pf

it would be an excellent play by him if he had JJ !!

LuckyLloyd

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CaptainNemo

LuckyLloyd wrote:

This is really bad IMO. We aren't calling just because we don't think he has Aces. His pre - flop range is much wider. But the texture of the board and his lead has given uis extra information that we can now use to make the most informed decision on how to act next.

Well to make what I meant clearer, if we get reraised like this before the flop, and we have KK, then if we don't think he has aces we ship it, right? I mean I know there are different ways to play it, but in this spot I will almost always ship it, unless I strongly suspect aces, in which case I will usually call and try to catch a king. So if the OP just called here what did that mean?

In the described situation I don't see his pre-flop range as being wide at all. If he is a tight player as described then I think he is only playing 3 hands this way, and maybe not even QQ. We have KK so that really leaves AA as the most likely. If you feel there's a flaw in this reasoning I'm of course open to opinions but this is my thinking process on it.

Analysis along the lines of "if you do x pre - flop, you must do y on the flop - otherwise you can never do x to begin with" is really, really bad. If the board was 8 7 2 we would be tanking the lot in over the top of his flop lead without any hesitation - do you see why?

The only difference I see is that the Q on the flop means that 1 more of his likely holdings that we WERE beating - QQ - is now ahead of us too. Is that what tips it to a fold for you? Other than that I don't see the difference. I still stick with the pre-flop assessment of his holdings. Again, if there's a better way to think about this I'm interested.

cooker3

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Folks, I am seeing this an awful lot of late. There is no need to be making every open - raise 4x the BB or every 3 bet 4x the standing total. We want action here and we have no problem taking a flop against two opponents with a pot that isn't too bloated. For various reasons - big betting as standard is bad IMO.

What, I don't understand, why wouldn't you want to make it as big as possible, we have second best hand and want to make make the really bad villain pay as big a mistake as possible for calling. I want the pot as bloated as I can get it pf.

CaptainNemo

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I would have re – raised preflop; and I would fold now.

This is what I was saying as well so I guess it's the reasoning rather than the conclusion that you feel isn't right?

phantom_lord

I'd fold now. but i would have tanked it pf.

HiCloy

phantom_lord wrote:

I'd fold now. but i would have tanked it pf.

Same here

LuckyLloyd

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Hectorjelly

Pushing preflop is fine but calling is better, im not going to bother to explain why it should be obvious, and whilst that Queen is a nasty card I dont think we should fold now. Most players will cb with JJ or AK here, and I dont think our flat call telegraphs that much strength to a normal player. If the stacks were deeper it may be different but I think its a big mistake to fold now. The guy making it 5k has to be aware that the orginal raiser is quite loose, so all of the corresponding ranges are looser as well, I think you could definitely be looking at AQ.

LuckyLloyd

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smurph

Thanks for all the replies,

It was one of those rare situations on the flop that I went from almost folding to re-raising all in.

I should have gone with my initial thought which was that I was in deep sh*t on the flop. He asked how much I had left and I felt he based his bet on the amount I had left rather than what was in the pot. Maybe my thinking is results based, but by his bet he was almost telling me that he had me. I certainly could not call the flop, but I went against my initial thought of folding and shipped the lot in. He called and turned over AdAc leaving me 350 chips with blinds 200 400.

2 hands later I pick up black aces and ship my last 350 chips in and get 3 callers, I survive. Then this hand happens, which I posted in another thread.

Serial raiser (initial raiser from my opening post) raises to 800 blinds are 200 400 and I go all in for 950, so it's 150 back to him. He then asks me if I want to live, I think "this guy has a monster and is acting like a dick, but I answer "yeah" and he FOLDS for the extra 150. Even if I raised with 7 2 offsuit I was calling for an extra 150. I proceed to get my stack back up to 5K and had a cunning play with 8dJd and that's that.

Thanks for the advice,

MacStacked

I dont think a solid tight player is putting 20-25% of their stack in pre-flop oop against a solid player with AQ..even given the loose nature of the original raiser.

CaptainNemo

LuckyLloyd wrote:

However, if the board had come 8 high with two to a flush draw, it suddenly becomes a possibility that he is committing himself with AA – JJ and we can now profitably shove as we are ahead of a range he can reasonably have to that action.

The only hand we're ahead of in that range is JJ, unless you're including AK? Even in that case we're ahead of 2 (AK / JJ which I would put down as less likely) and behind 2 that are more likely (AA and QQ) and tying KK (unlikely). I don't see how it's profitable to push in that situation unless you think 10-10 might be in the range.

EDIT: I just realized we don't have a Q high flop any more. I'll leave this post in just as an example of being a muppet So, never mind.

BigCityBanker

Smurph

I dont think your line post flop is criminal with KK.

CelticPhantom

smurph wrote:

I should have gone with my initial thought which was that I was in deep sh*t on the flop. He asked how much I had left and I felt he based his bet on the amount I had left rather than what was in the pot. Maybe my thinking is results based, but by his bet he was almost telling me that he had me.

There seems to be a psychological limit for most people, where they do not like to put in more than half their remaining chips. If the villain had read a few poker books and knew this (did you think he was a well read/knowledgeable player?) then his bet of under half your stack would suggest that he was looking for a call.

Hard Luck