I have a major problem.

estebancambias

My problem stems from what I witness everytime I attend Mass. My problem, people just going to Mass for the sake of it. In Mass, I try to make it a real expierence not just some weekly thing I attend out of guilt.

Do people know why they are going to Church? It's not to pray for the winning lottery numbers, not to pray for a job promotion, it's to pray to God, and pray for the poor and the sick.

I think services should be more interactive, have a deeper meaning behind them instead of the weekly recording I have become all to acustomed to.

Asiaprod

Appears to me that this post requires a Christian answer. I would appreaciate it if the other posters here would bear that in mind
Thanks.

siochain

OP, perhaps you could try a different type of service, look up Christian services near to where you live and try them out. If you serious about your faith its worth looking around.

kelly1

estebancambias wrote:

My problem stems from what I witness everytime I attend Mass. My problem, people just going to Mass for the sake of it. In Mass, I try to make it a real expierence not just some weekly thing I attend out of guilt.

Do people know why they are going to Church? It's not to pray for the winning lottery numbers, not to pray for a job promotion, it's to pray to God, and pray for the poor and the sick.

I think services should be more interactive, have a deeper meaning behind them instead of the weekly recording I have become all to acustomed to.

Hello estebancambias. I think the problem is that people don't really understand the meaning of the Mass which is essentially a sacrifice. In the Mass, Christ offers in an unbloody manner, the one sacrifice of Calvary to God the Father in atonement for our sins and in petition for our spiritual needs. The sacrifice of Calvary and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass are the very same sacrifice, being different only in space and time. The priest acts in persona Christi meaning that it is Christ who offers the sacrifice and the priest is His physical instrument.

At Mass we should offer ourselves in union with the offering of Christ to God the Father and ask for help in our spiritual and temporal needs. There is no prayer more powerful than the Mass. People often complain that they don't get anything out of Mass. It's not about what we get, but more about what we give. We get back what we give.

Mass of course is also about giving God thanks and praise and is a celebration of the victory that Christ won for us on the cross.

Some links below about quotes from the saints etc on the value of the Mass:

http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/liturgy/masspower.htm
http://www.cwo.com/~pentrack/catholic/mass.html

God bless,
Noel.

philologos

OP, I suggest that you try other Christian churches in your area as siochain has said.

kelly1

Jakkass wrote:

OP, I suggest that you try other Christian churches in your area as siochain has said.

And leave the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ???!!! Without the catholic (and orthodox) Church, you have no Eucharist and without the Eucharist, you have no life within you:

John 6:54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

Without the Church, you have no confession and absolution of sins:

John 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.


You are asking the OP to leave the original Church founded by Christ on Peter. May God have mercy on you and Siochain for suggesting such a thing! You don't understand what the Church is or you wouldn't have said this. The Church teaches the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you.


To reject the Church is to reject Christ:

Luke 10:16 He that heareth you [the apostles], heareth me [Christ]; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.

God bless!
Noel.

philologos

kelly1 wrote:

And leave the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ???!!! Without the catholic (and orthodox) Church, you have no Eucharist and without the Eucharist, you have no life within you:

Christianity is Christianity and it doesn't matter if it was first or last. And to be honest I find it insulting that you claim that the other churches aren't true. Facts are when a certain Reformation happened the Catholic authorities weren't acting in a very Christian manner. I'd like to know what you regard of Messanic Judaism by the way, they consider themselves to be the first Christians as well since they were the Jews who first accepted Jesus Christ as Lord. We do practise the Eucharist by the way, just it isn't depicted as it actually changing into the blood and flesh. It occurred during Passover, a symbolic festival.

kelly1 wrote:

Without the Church, you have no confession and absolution of sins:
John 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

kelly1 wrote:

To reject the Church is to reject Christ:

I haven't rejected the Church (Your church isn't the only one). I'm a full baptised member of the Anglican Communion, if you have a problem with that tough. But I'm a full Christian, even the Catholic, Presbyterian, and Methodist priests recognise us as a full church so I don't know what your problem is.

What are you talking about, I'm a member of a church (COI), and believe it or not it's just as legitimate as yours and you my friend are just taken away with arrogance. You can confess your sins to God, and they will be forgiven. Why the middle man? Why are you telling this to someone who is also mortal and prone to sin themselves? Doesn't make much sense if you ask me.

kelly1 wrote:

You are asking the OP to leave the original Church founded by Christ on Peter. May God have mercy on you and Siochain for suggesting such a thing! You don't understand what the Church is or you wouldn't have said this. The Church teaches the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!

I hope God will forgive your arrogance. (Which isn't a favourable quality according to the Bible). You don't have to be Catholic to be Christian.

kelly1

Jakkass wrote:

Christianity is Christianity and it doesn't matter if it was first or last. And to be honest I find it insulting that you claim that the other churches aren't true. Facts are when a certain Reformation happened the Catholic authorities weren't acting in a very Christian manner. I'd like to know what you regard of Messanic Judaism by the way, they consider themselves to be the first Christians as well since they were the Jews who first accepted Jesus Christ as Lord. We do practise the Eucharist by the way, just it isn't depicted as it actually changing into the blood and flesh. It occurred during Passover, a symbolic festival.

I haven't rejected the Church (Your church isn't the only one). I'm a full baptised member of the Anglican Communion, if you have a problem with that tough. But I'm a full Christian, even the Catholic, Presbyterian, and Methodist priests recognise us as a full church so I don't know what your problem is.

What are you talking about, I'm a member of a church (COI), and believe it or not it's just as legitimate as yours and you my friend are just taken away with arrogance. You can confess your sins to God, and they will be forgiven. Why the middle man? Why are you telling this to someone who is also mortal and prone to sin themselves? Doesn't make much sense if you ask me.

I hope God will forgive your arrogance. (Which isn't a favourable quality according to the Bible). You don't have to be Catholic to be Christian.

Jakkass, first I'd like to apologise for insulting you. That is not what I intended to do. The point I'm trying to make is that all Christian Churches can't be true because they teach contradicting doctines. Do you agree?

Your Church teaches that the Eucharist is symbolic while mine teaches that the entire Jesus Christ is present in the Eucharist. There's a blatant contradiction here. So both Churches can't be true, can they? One must be teaching error.

I'm claiming that the catholic Church teaches the fulness of truth while others teach part of the truth and some error. There's no escaping this logic.
Up to the time of the reformation, all Christians believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. Was the Church teaching error for all this time only to be saved by Martin Luther??

You don't have to be catholic to be Christian, as you say, but I believe to fully participate in the life of Christ, one needs to be part of His (catholic) Church and to receive all applicable sacraments for the confering of grace.

Please understand I mean no offence. But I think the truth is what matters here.

God bless,
Noel.

siochain

kelly1 wrote:

1. And leave the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ???!!! Without the catholic (and orthodox) Church, you have no Eucharist and without the Eucharist, you have no life within you:

2. Without the Church, you have no confession and absolution of sins:

3. You are asking the OP to leave the original Church founded by Christ on Peter. May God have mercy on you and Siochain for suggesting such a thing! You don't understand what the Church is or you wouldn't have said this. The Church teaches the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!

4. To reject the Church is to reject Christ:

Hi Noel,

1. This is a very complex debate, and I am in no way qualified to fully debate the subject as I don’t know and have not personally experienced all Churches or religions. I believe it’s very important to not only to study another churches beliefs but to fully experience them before commenting. An even if I had studied and experience all churches I would reserve my judgment as it’s certainly not my place to judge anyone or any group.

2. Talk direct to God yourself. Can you show me anywhere it says we should confess through a priest?

3. Firstly the OP expressed a frustration I experience some time ago. I was brought up in a catholic house and I would get a lot out of my weekly service but it was very obvious people would only be there going through the motions. I would fully agree with you when you say ‘It's not about what we get, but more about what we give.’
When I was introduced to my Pentecostal Church I was attending a service that a very high percentage have a real passion for Jesus Christ. I was in no way asking him to leave his Church just try a different service,
As you are in the Kildare area I am extending and offer to you to come and experience our Sunday service I will personally meet you before hand. PM if your interested.
And if the OP is serious about his relationship with Jesus Christ and as the original post said ‘services should be more interactive’ this would suit them also.

kelly1 wrote:

May God have mercy on you and Siochain for suggesting such a thing!

Its comments like this and miss quoted scripture that put me off this so called Christianity board.

“Preach the Gospel always, but only use words if Necessary.” (St Francis)

Peace to all

BrianCalgary

kelly1 wrote:

Jakkass, first I'd like to apologise for insulting you. That is not what I intended to do. The point I'm trying to make is that all Christian Churches can't be true because they teach contradicting doctines. Do you agree?

Your Church teaches that the Eucharist is symbolic while mine teaches that the entire Jesus Christ is present in the Eucharist. There's a blatant contradiction here. So both Churches can't be true, can they? One must be teaching error.

I'm claiming that the catholic Church teaches the fulness of truth while others teach part of the truth and some error. There's no escaping this logic.
Up to the time of the reformation, all Christians believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. Was the Church teaching error for all this time only to be saved by Martin Luther??

You don't have to be catholic to be Christian, as you say, but I believe to fully participate in the life of Christ, one needs to be part of His (catholic) Church and to receive all applicable sacraments for the confering of grace.

Please understand I mean no offence. But I think the truth is what matters here.

God bless,
Noel.

Actually kelly, being a Christian who has attended services in th efollowing churches: RC, Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist, Chirstian and Misisonary Alliance, Pentecostal, Plymouth Brethren and various independants, I don't see much difference in essenial doctrine, ie the apostles creed. I see different styles of worship and a few different ways of viewing the Eucharist.

The 'church' is defined as the body of believers whose head is Christ. Christ can be found and worshipped in any of teh above mentioned churches.

I get flack from some in my church because I would say that Christ can be found in Catholicism, my mother-in-law being an example, as He can be found in Pentecostal.

So to the OP, It bothers me in any church, people going through the motions on a Sunday am and don't apply Christ to their entire life. When at church, worship Him yourself, listen to the words of the prayers that you are reciting and look for Christ in the Eucharist.

If it doesn't work, maybe God is leading you to another parish and/or denomination where He can use yoru talents to further His work and kingdom.

Run_to_da_hills

kelly1 wrote:

And leave the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ???!!! Without the catholic (and orthodox) Church, you have no Eucharist and without the Eucharist, you have no life within you: .

I made the choice to leave the Catholic Church many years ago. As Brian Calgary explained Christ can be found and worshiped in any denomination. I “found Christ” through the Catholic Church at a Charasmatic prayer group, We had praise and worship and Bible study, after several months I felt uncomfortable remaining in the Catholic Church and decided to leave it and join an independent Christian church.

I now accept the broken bread and wine purely as symbols of what Christ has done for me in my personal life.

kelly1 wrote:

John 6:54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. .

Jesus used metaphors, He never taught us to literally eat Him. He simply asked us to REMEMBER Him (Luke 22:19). In John 10:9, Jesus claims to be the DOOR into Heaven; BUT, it is obvious that He's not a wooden or metal door. Likewise, Jesus is the bread of life, not an actual loaf of bread.

kelly1 wrote:

Without the Church, you have no confession and absolution of sins:

As others explained already on this post there is only one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ, I confess my sins directly to God through Jesus. (1 John 1vs9)

kelly1 wrote:

You are asking the OP to leave the original Church founded by Christ on Peter. May God have mercy on you and Siochain for suggesting such a thing! You don't understand what the Church is or you wouldn't have said this. The Church teaches the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!

I would disagree with the Catholic Church teaching the “whole truth and nothing but the truth”, The Catholic Church has violated the "Word of God", on several counts. It has placed Mary on a pedestal way above that of God by calling her the "Mother of God". God has no mother. Also Mary was a "sinner" like everyone else "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God!" Romans 3 vs. 23 Jesus is the only infallible person who has never sinned. It is for these reasons and many more made me decide that the Catholic Church was not for me.

kelly1 wrote:

To reject the Church is to reject Christ:

Jesus Christ is the "Rock" of my church, and the "Church" is the body of believers irrespective of denomination.

I would recommend Estebancambias try out the Dunlaoghaire Evangelical Church DEC http://www.dec.ie/ A very friendly church that holds regular Alpha courses and bible study. I believe the Alpha courses are also recognised by the Catholic Church.

kelly1

siochain wrote:

2. Talk direct to God yourself. Can you show me anywhere it says we should confess through a priest?

There is plenty of scriptural support for confession.

See http://www.scripturecatholic.com/confession.html

siochain wrote:

Its comments like this and miss quoted scripture that put me off this so called Christianity board.

Again I apologise of any offence cause. However it is my belief Jesus wants a single undivided Church.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.

siochain wrote:

“Preach the Gospel always, but only use words if Necessary.” (St Francis)

Good quote.

faceman

estebancambias wrote:

My problem stems from what I witness everytime I attend Mass. My problem, people just going to Mass for the sake of it. In Mass, I try to make it a real expierence not just some weekly thing I attend out of guilt.

Do people know why they are going to Church? It's not to pray for the winning lottery numbers, not to pray for a job promotion, it's to pray to God, and pray for the poor and the sick.

I think services should be more interactive, have a deeper meaning behind them instead of the weekly recording I have become all to acustomed to.

this is my first post in this forum but i can relate to what you're saying without quoting lines from the bible. Ask yourself, why do you go to mass? Its not for the priest, for the neighbour sittin next to you, for your parents is it? Its for you, your spiritual identity and your relationship with God.

Your relationship with God is very personal despite what you may have been thought in school. The religious sermon in ireland is boring. To say that doesnt make you less catholic or Christian or whatever you may be. Since i have become mature enough to appreciate going to mass, I enjoy listening to the Gospel the most. Interaction would be good, but i dont relate to alot of priests and it would probably turn away alot of people.

the repetitive nature of mass, the detatched view of reality that many church officials have would make any church goer question why they go or indeed forget altogether. But like i said, you dont pray to the priest. THe priest only communicates God's word. There is deeper meaning there, we just forget to look for it!

Find a priest thats young and have a chat with him, trust me, he will probably identify with alot of your concerns!

kelly1

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

As Brian Calgary explained Christ can be found and worshiped in any denomination.

I agree but you can't receive the Body and Blood of Jesus in a protestant Church.

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

Jesus used metaphors, He never taught us to literally eat Him.

Oh yes He did!

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. 53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.
Jesus couldn't have been any clearer about this. He said Amen, amen...

61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? 62 But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you?
Why were His disciples scandalized if He was speaking figuratively?

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

The Catholic Church has violated the "Word of God", on several counts. It has placed Mary on a pedestal way above that of God by calling her the "Mother of God". Mary is not the Mother of the God.

Catholics don't elevate Mary above God! That's ridiculous. Mary is the mother of Christ's humanity isn't she? She gave Him His flesh and Christ couldn't have been born without her co-operation.

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

Also Mary was a "sinner" like everyone else "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God!" Romans 3 vs. 23

Jesus was a man (and God) who never sinner so this verse obviously can't be taken literally.

See http://www.ewtn.com/faith/Teachings/marya2.htm

God bless,
Noel.

BrianCalgary

kelly1 wrote:

I agree but you can't receive the Body and Blood of Jesus in a protestant Church.
.

It depends on how one views the verses at the Last Supper. Are they figurative or literal?

I'm in a position that on taking communion in any church I am somehow connected with the Living Christ through the action of communion, with my brothers and sisters in the church now, before and future.

Since Christ instituted the practice to do it in 'memory of me' I understand the presence of the Holy Spirit within the communion, which gives it more than just symbolism.

When at mass, there is the connection to something much larger than me, the congregation and the Rc church itself that I am a part of, and I am a part of it because of Christs sacrifice, which I celebrate through the Lords supper at His table, be it at a Baptist, C&MA, or RC church (just the three that you may find me at, not to say that I wouldn't be at any other denomination).

Run_to_da_hills

kelly1 wrote:

I agree but you can't receive the Body and Blood of Jesus in a protestant Church.

I do not accept it as the literal "Body and Blood of Christ", as I already stated my reason. Could you also find me a quotation in the Bible depicting the precision round shape of the Eucharist along with its inscription IHS? Get back to me with it because I certainly cannot find any reference to it in my Bible.

kelly1 wrote:

Catholics don't elevate Mary above God! That's ridiculous. Mary is the mother of Christ's humanity isn't she? She gave Him His flesh and Christ couldn't have been born without her co-operation.

Every time you pray the "Hail Mary" you are elevating Mary to the position as the "Mother of God", i.e. Holy Mary "mother of god" pray for us sinners etc, this is a not true. Mary is the mother of Jesus (word made flesh) who is god but she is not the mother of the "Holy Spirit" who is God nor is she the mother of the "Father" who is God, all three are one according to (1 John 5 vs. 7). In other words that prayer places Mary as the mother of the "Trinity" or "Godhead" and you cannot deny this.

kelly1 wrote:

Jesus was a man (and God) who never sinner so this verse obviously can't be taken literally.

All have sinned literally means that all have sinned and that includes Mary. If Mary was "without sin" could you please explain why she also needed for a saviour? Read the following.

"And Mary said, my soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in GOD MY SAVIOUR." (Luke 1 vs. 47 & 48)

Mary never remained a perpetual virgin contrary to Catholic belief, "Is not this [referring to Jesus] the carpenter, the son of Mary, the BROTHER of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not HIS SISTERS here with us? And they were offended at him". Mark 6:3

JimiTime

At the risk of sounding like Im rounding on RC, I'd like to say, the following is genuine, could offend a catholic, but its a feeling I got on Saturday, and I'd just like to see what others think. I've noticed alot of, 'sure we're all christian' type comments but something disturbed me recently.

I attended a catholic wedding on saturday. As I looked around at the various 'carved images' and Mary grotto's, I just got a real sense of discomfort. I looked around me at some of the attendies wearing religious trinkits such as crosses and 'holy' medal. Then at the 'holy' water bowl and the confession box (i have no problem with confession of sins, I think its a good thing. Its the right to grant absolution I have issue with). I left the church feeling like this place was closer to witchcraft than Christ. Does anyone else understand where I'm coming from?

Kelly1, I realise this sounds very offensive, considering what Gods view is on witchcraft, but I honestly felt that strongly about it. Please try understand my feelings about it, I'm not just having a pop. How do you reconsile all this with Christian teaching?

As to all that say they feel that Catholocism is just one of many of the christian churches, how do you reconsile these practices with christian teaching? or Do you consider them just small issues that have no real bearing? I'm not sure where I stand yet, would be interested to hear christians views on it.

the_syco

There are the catholic church that everyone goes to, is forced to goto, is gulited to go to, and there's the born-again christain church where everyone loves the place. Try a different church. Sometimes the smaller ones are better. THe larger churches try to cram as many people into a room as possible, to get the word to as many people as possible, where as the BAC's celebrate mass.

Also, BAC's tend to have a priest who's "into" life, getting people involved, as opposed to giving out sermon after sermon after sermon about how we all sin, doom and gloom.

The local (guy was based in Lucan) BAC priest was easy going, and answered all the questions I had, in layman terms. I've NEVER met a normal (non-born-again) priest who will talk about the catholic faith, who doesn't rely on verse after verse of crap.

lostexpectation

Asiaprod wrote:

Appears to me that this post requires a Christian answer. I would appreaciate it if the other posters here would bear that in mind
Thanks.

every time you bring this rule up , its shows a mockery of it, would it not be useful to get answers from people who go to the amss jsut for the sake of it. I don't believe those people to christians and neither does s/he

lostexpectation

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

I made the choice to leave the Catholic Church many years ago. As Brian Calgary explained Christ can be found and worshiped in any denomination. I “found Christ” through the Catholic Church at a Charasmatic prayer group, We had praise and worship and Bible study, after several months I felt uncomfortable remaining in the Catholic Church and decided to leave it and join an independent Christian church.

I would recommend Estebancambias try out the Dunlaoghaire Evangelical Church DEC http://www.dec.ie/ A very friendly church that holds regular Alpha courses and bible study. I believe the Alpha courses are also recognised by the Catholic Church.

a charasmatic prayer group, im surprised that an attendee of such would use that phrase I've only see the word charasmatic church used with negative connotations? who is or what is the charasmatist?

Run_to_da_hills

lostexpectation wrote:

a charasmatic prayer group, im surprised that an attendee of such would use that phrase I've only see the word charasmatic church used with negative connotations? who is or what is the charasmatist?

At the time we would have had our prayer meetings and Bible study in private houses or rented school rooms, that was over 20 years ago before internet, This would be the equivilant of the same groups to-day.

http://ccr-ireland.org//index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=7

sallygap

faceman wrote:

Ask yourself, why do you go to mass? Its not for the priest, for the neighbour sittin next to you, for your parents is it? Its for you, your spiritual identity and your relationship with God.

I totally agree. This has become an amazingly complicated debate over a simple question. You go to mass for you. I've been to mass with 5 people and 500 people but it always feels the same because I don't focus on other people.

No offence but some people need to come down off their high horse.

lostexpectation

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

At the time we would have had our prayer meetings and Bible study in private houses or rented school rooms, that was over 20 years ago before internet, This would be the equivilant of the same groups to-day.

http://ccr-ireland.org//index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=7

charismatic (a term derived from the Greek word for Grace)

Grace again.

faceman

sallygap wrote:

I totally agree. This has become an amazingly complicated debate over a simple question. You go to mass for you. I've been to mass with 5 people and 500 people but it always feels the same because I don't focus on other people.

No offence but some people need to come down off their high horse.

agreed. Very few of the responses have no relevance whatsoever.

Fanny Cradock

estebancambias wrote:

I think services should be more interactive, have a deeper meaning behind them instead of the weekly recording I have become all to acustomed to.

Indeed they should. Churches like this do exist, though. It's like any aspect of life - if you are not happy with a service being provided then you move on and find better. Why not the same with a church?

Michael G

estebancambias wrote:

My problem stems from what I witness everytime I attend Mass. My problem, people just going to Mass for the sake of it.

I agree. But a lot of the problems stem from two things: people not having been told what the Mass is and means, and priests celebrating it badly.

estebancambias wrote:

I think services should be more interactive, have a deeper meaning behind them instead of the weekly recording I have become all to acustomed to.

I don't agree. The interactive approach has already got to a point where there are so many distractions from the deeper meaning that it's impossible to break through them.

Some posters have suggested you go to other Christian churches. I would strongly urge you not to. Apart from the fact that their services are not, with all due respect, equivalent to the Mass, you will probably find the same kinds of distractions. I suggest you try the Latin Mass. If you are in or near Dublin, you could try the 11.00 Mass in St Audoen's in High Street. If you are not in Dublin, there is a full list of available Masses on the website of the Latin Mass Society of Ireland. The Latin Mass is focused on God and on the Sacrifice, unlike the new Mass which is inward-looking and turns the priest and some selected lay people into performers who draw the focus away from the spiritual heart of the event.

Fanny Cradock

Michael G wrote:

I don't agree. The interactive approach has already got to a point where there are so many distractions from the deeper meaning that it's impossible to break through them.

Please define these 'distractions'. With all due respect, I really can't fathom where you get your above notion from. Sweeping, negative and unfounded generalisations within Christianity do no good.

Michael G wrote:

Apart from the fact that their services are not, with all due respect, equivalent to the Mass, you will probably find the same kinds of distractions. I suggest you try the Latin Mass. If you are in or near Dublin, you could try the 11.00 Mass in St Audoen's in High Street. If you are not in Dublin, there is a full list of available Masses on the website of the Latin Mass Society of Ireland. The Latin Mass is focused on God and on the Sacrifice, unlike the new Mass which is inward-looking and turns the priest and some selected lay people into performers who draw the focus away from the spiritual heart of the event.

I don't want to get into the merits of one denomination over another, but I fail to see how Latin Mass is somehow a more valid expression of faith than a Church with 'distractions'.

Two genuine questions:

Is there any evidence to suggest that Jesus spoke or had an understanding of Latin?

Could tell me the point in Latin services?

As I see it, why should a service be conducted in a language that only a smattering of people understand? Surely the point and the object of worship remains the same (Jesus) no matter what the method. If the OP is becoming disillusioned then he should seek alternatives.

Bar what the bible tells us, I don't for a moment believe that there is an implicitly correct practice to praising God. After all, a Church is a just building and a priest is merely a man (or woman). That's all! Lets not ascribe divine powers to either.

Run_to_da_hills

Michael G wrote:

I suggest you try the Latin Mass. If you are in or near Dublin, you could try the 11.00 Mass in St Audoen's in High Street.

Why send Estebancambias to an institute with a weekly recording in a foreign language if he cannot find an interactive deeper meaning in the same service in the English language.

It was not until 1965 AD that the Pope finally understood 1 Cor 14:19 and allowed masses to conducted in the same vernacular language of the local people.

The Latin Mass would certainly be forbidden in the Bible if no one in the pews could understands Latin

"In the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue." 1 Corinthians 14:19

Pope Benedict intends throwing the Roman Catholic Church right back into the dark ages by the reintroduction of the Tridentine mass.

siochain

Michael G wrote:

The interactive approach has already got to a point where there are so many distractions from the deeper meaning that it's impossible to break through them.

Some posters have suggested you go to other Christian churches. I would strongly urge you not to. Apart from the fact that their services are not, with all due respect, equivalent to the Mass, you will probably find the same kinds of distractions.

I have spent some time reading this and just can't work out where your coming from !
No offence intended

Fanny cradock has summed it up anyway.

Peace

McGinty

I totally agree. This has become an amazingly complicated debate over a simple question. You go to mass for you. I've been to mass with 5 people and 500 people but it always feels the same because I don't focus on other people.

No offence but some people need to come down off their high horse.

Good point and would concur, I would also say to the other posters that the op had an issue with the way others were behaving and acting whilst in mass. I was baptised as a Catholic, turned by back on it and have since come back to it - I don't care about what my fellow churchgoers are doing because how they practise is between them and God.

However I would not state that the Catholic Church is the true church, it may be the original christian church but I don't believe there is one definitive church. I have looked into other religions and like someone else said the core truths are similar but the style tends to vary. Personally I love the style of the Catholic church, I like the repitition for me it reflects the ritual and rhythm of life, the rituals run in tandem with the seasons, which again can connect to life. I get a great deal out of the readings and in my church I get a great deal out of some of the sermons, espicially from the parish priest. As for all the memorablia eg: statues and stuff, again I love that too, I like the iconography, I don't subscribe to everything the Catholic church states because it is doctrine and some of it has been added on over the centuries.

Personally I believe that as God loves variety, this variety is reflected in the various religions, they are each points of view that lead to the same road. I don't buy into the fact that biblical writing is literal as someone who has worked with translation, the meaning of words change through translation and also over time.

Juza1973

estebancambias wrote:

My problem stems from what I witness everytime I attend Mass. My problem, people just going to Mass for the sake of it. In Mass, I try to make it a real expierence not just some weekly thing I attend out of guilt.

I don't perceive this as your problem, it is the problem of the people near you when you are going to Mass. I don't think any of us had a 100% attention to all the masses they partecipated to in their lives (not that this is not wrong!).

I think services should be more interactive, have a deeper meaning behind them instead of the weekly recording I have become all to acustomed to.

The Mass has already a meaning that couldn't be deeper. Just concentrate on what the words spoken really mean and pray to understand them. Many saints weren't able to celebrate Mass without falling into ecstasy. The power of the ceremony comes from God, not from any of the participants or even the sum of them. If we pray enough we will never be bored in any Mass!

Michael G

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Please define these 'distractions'.

Human-focused interventions that distract us from the focus of the Mass which is God - priests ad-libbing, generally badly; intrusive actions and gestures; the "Sign of Peace"; lots more.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

I don't want to get into the merits of one denomination over another, but I fail to see how Latin Mass is somehow a more valid expression of faith than a Church with 'distractions'.

I never said it was. I said it is more likely to help people to focus on the sacred aspect of what is happening.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Is there any evidence to suggest that Jesus spoke or had an understanding of Latin?

Of course not. Though he may have had some Greek to converse with Pilate, unless there was an interpreter.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Could tell me the point in Latin services?

It's not the language; it is the ritual. The Mass could convey its sacred content just as well if the words were in English. It is the way it is done that matters.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Bar what the bible tells us, I don't for a moment believe that there is an implicitly correct practice to praising God.

There, I certainly differ with you. The Mass is not just a way of praising God. It is a re-enactment of Christ's sacrifice during which Christ himself becomes actually present in the consecrated bread and wine. You may not believe that, but for Catholics it is the bottom line. The fact that that is what is happening is the reason why distractions are to be rigorously excluded.

looksee

estebancambias wrote:

My problem stems from what I witness everytime I attend Mass. My problem, people just going to Mass for the sake of it. In Mass, I try to make it a real expierence not just some weekly thing I attend out of guilt.

Do people know why they are going to Church? It's not to pray for the winning lottery numbers, not to pray for a job promotion, it's to pray to God, and pray for the poor and the sick.

I think services should be more interactive, have a deeper meaning behind them instead of the weekly recording I have become all to acustomed to.

I am a bit puzzled by this post. One the one hand the mod's observation in the second post suggests that we are not allowed to say, cop on to yourself OP, why are you so busily observing everyone else at Mass? How do you know what they are praying for? Surely what everyone else does at Mass - providing they respect the occasion - is between themselves and (their) God? Your only major problem is lack of concentration on what you yourself are there for.

On the other hand the thread is allowed to go completely off-topic, degenerating into a 'my religion is better than your religion', 'I'm a real Christian and you're not' thread.

Having written that I can see that, in fact, that is what the OP was saying, so maybe its not off topic at all.

Asiaprod

looksee wrote:

I am a bit puzzled by this post. One the one hand the mod's observation in the second post suggests that we are not allowed to say, cop on to yourself OP.....

The mod in question requests that you read what he actually said

Appears to me that this post requires a Christian answer. I would appreaciate it if the other posters here would bear that in mind

Hum, don't see anything there stopping anyone from posting.

looksee

Well could you explain what you mean by 'a Christian answer'? The fact that you find it necessary to make this point suggests that you anticipate some sort of negative answer, would my (hypothetical) answer be considered Christian, maybe I just misunderstood you.

Asiaprod

looksee wrote:

Well could you explain what you mean by 'a Christian answer'? The fact that you find it necessary to make this point suggests that you anticipate some sort of negative answer, would my (hypothetical) answer be considered Christian, maybe I just misunderstood you.

With all respect, the fact that you have to ask indicates you are not aware of an ongoing issue we faced some time ago with heated debates between Christians and non-believers. This resulted in our posters agreeing to honor that some posts were seeking christian answers.

looksee

You are correct, I missed that particular discussion, I think I can see where you are coming from. So my answer that the OP should pay more attention to what she is doing and less to what she thinks her neighbours may be doing is a legitimate (Christian) contribution to the thread.

I still think that all the 'my beliefs are the only real beliefs' offerings by other contributers amount to a kind of religious racism, but I suppose that that is more of a philosophical discussion about the nature of belief than anything to do with Christianity.

Asiaprod

looksee wrote:

You are correct, I missed that particular discussion, I think I can see where you are coming from. So my answer that the OP should pay more attention to what she is doing and less to what she thinks her neighbours may be doing is a legitimate (Christian) contribution to the thread.

Not only is it legitimate, it is also very good advice:)

looksee

BrianCalgary

Michael G wrote:

Human-focused interventions that distract us from the focus of the Mass which is God - priests ad-libbing, generally badly; intrusive actions and gestures; the "Sign of Peace"; lots more.

I find that interesting, I would say my favourite part of the mass is the 'sign of peace' offered to fellow worshippers. A time when we touch hands with others, smile broadly and connect in some way.

Michael G

BrianCalgary wrote:

I find that interesting, I would say my favourite part of the mass is the 'sign of peace' offered to fellow worshippers. A time when we touch hands with others, smile broadly and connect in some way.

I think you have put your finger on the point where you and I differ. I find the new Mass inward-looking, about people looking at themselves and each other rather than each, and all, looking at God.

BrianCalgary

Michael G wrote:

I think you have put your finger on the point where you and I differ. I find the new Mass inward-looking, about people looking at themselves and each other rather than each, and all, looking at God.

So can you see the reasons for different types of worship? I am avery relational type person. I'm also not musical. I wouldn't go to a service that was all music and prayer.

I love it when there is fellowship and teaching from the word.

Although someone elses personality have them needing noise and experience whilst someone else needs quiet and reverance.

I see that all are valid methods of worshipping and connecting with God through the Holy Spirit, while still being Christ centred.

Michael G

Certainly there are many valid types of worship. We Catholics would maintain however that the Mass is in a different category from all the others, being a sacrifice and a sacrament as well as an act of worship. I realise I am treading a fine line here because some people get offended by the suggestion that not all kinds of worship are equivalent. It is not my intention to be offensive.

BrianCalgary

Michael G wrote:

Certainly there are many valid types of worship. We Catholics would maintain however that the Mass is in a different category from all the others, being a sacrifice and a sacrament as well as an act of worship. I realise I am treading a fine line here because some people get offended by the suggestion that not all kinds of worship are equivalent. It is not my intention to be offensive.

Not too much a fine line. I agree with you.

I think that the Evangelical church on distancing itself from Catholicism has lost the reverence for the Lord's Supper.

In having said that though I found that in the Catholic church the mass had become to much rote without much feeling. Which is sad because the prayers and the meanings of the words that are said during the mass are wonderfully beautiful and show a love and reverance for the Lord that isn't duplicated by many of the mindless lyrics that are sung as 'worship' in todays churches.

I find it ironic that evangelicals will criticise Catholicicsm for saying the same prayers over and over again as being the same as Christ's admonishment of the Pharisees, yet they will sing the following chorus:
yes Lord, yes Lord; Yes, yes Lord

15 times and not think twice about it as being repetitive and meaningless.

Terry

estebancambias wrote:

My problem stems from what I witness everytime I attend Mass. My problem, people just going to Mass for the sake of it. In Mass, I try to make it a real expierence not just some weekly thing I attend out of guilt.

Do people know why they are going to Church? It's not to pray for the winning lottery numbers, not to pray for a job promotion, it's to pray to God, and pray for the poor and the sick.

I think services should be more interactive, have a deeper meaning behind them instead of the weekly recording I have become all to acustomed to.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Matthew 7:1-5