400nl deep..

[nicK]

villain is a 20/6/2.2 reg..

my notes have him as being an extremely cautious absolute nit.. unfortunatley that is all i have to go on although i have many hands with him and love to mess with him in position...

Titan No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00/$4.00BB (Titan HH Converter by Kreatief)

Button ($812.17)
SB ($775.40)
BB ($392.00)
MP3 ($683.43)
CO ($367.71)

SB has 5:club:, 5:spade:

2 folds, Button raises to $16.00, SB calls $14.00, 1 folds

Flop: 5, K:club:, 8:spade: ($ 36.0)
SB checks, Button bets $28.00, SB raises to $92.00, Button calls $64.00,

Turn: 7 ($ 220.0)
SB bets $144.00, Button raises to $349.00

i've got an unusally tight image here and i'm wondering if villain must put me on a set here almost always with my reraise and lead into such a dry flop, being so deep.. if he's raising this turn he surely has me beat unless of course he's making a steller play at the pot with a bluff which i don't think he's capable of.. so.. we know villain has a massive hand.. how often/if ever, should we be folding bottom set here?

karlh

it looks like villain has AK enough times here to make folding bottom set criminal IMO.

i dont see why villain has to have you on a set. what you call a lead into a dry flop can just be a continuation bet from his POV.

could find a fold if villain reraises OOP preflop. only hand that he can have that beats you is 88. if he does, i'll hand him the tank.

AhKh could explain his strong line and increased interest on the turn?

RoundTower

wow I hate this spot given your read. I would like to see some good players comment.

Also I guess people will object to you cr a set here, I think this is fine.

BuChan

tough spot. all you beat is AK/AA and you're notes say "extremely cautious absolute nit" wouldn't a person like this just call the turn with AA/AK? he essentialy minraised on the turn which is pretty strong, there are surely cases for folding bottom set and this could be one. although is it possible he raised the button with K8/85 sooted and has two pair.
i don't know....fold...call...fold..call...fold...call...no.......fold.

ianmc38

I think a realistic range is {AK, AA, KK, 88}. Anytime a tight player calls a raise in the blinds it is almost always a pocket pair. The large majority of TAGs will 3bet AK, KK and AA against a button opener, although some like to get tricky with KK/AA by cold calling and check raising the flop. If he shoves over your raise here, there are only 2 hands he can have, namely 88/KK so I think its a definite fold. I think the hand is fine up to now.

The villain in question is pretty important.

ianmc38

Whoops just saw you were the SB in this hand. His line is really strong here. I think your hand is fairly transparent. Any observant player will know that you're rarely to never cold calling raises in the blinds with AJ+ or 2 broadways so that totally narrows your range. I think you'll almost always 3-bet a button opener with KK/AA as well, especially a nit who's range on the button will include hands that will call 3 bets and sometimes 4bet.

Given this information, anyone with even basic handreading skills will know that your range here is most likely medium pocket pairs. Check raising the flop and leading the turn on such a dry board means that there are only 2 hands you can ever realistically have here - 55/88. With your superstrong line and the villains cold call of your check raise and now raising your turn lead, his range must surely narrow to KK/88/55. Given that we have 55 I think he only ever shows up with 88 or KK here. If he has AA he is far more likely to just call your turn lead. I dont like folding sets, but this might just be the place to do it...

phantom_lord

yeah, I think it's probably a fold. your hand looks pretty transparent as a set, and with his tight raising range together with your read I think you have to behind here a ton, especially if he's willing to get 200bbs in, like I don't think he's ever turning up with ak here.

I think the cr's fine.

karlh

ianmc38 wrote:

Whoops just saw you were the SB in this hand.

i thought you were button too for some reason....still super tough.

Mr.Plough

ianmc38 wrote:

Whoops just saw you were the SB in this hand. His line is really strong here. I think your hand is fairly transparent. Any observant player will know that you're rarely to never cold calling raises in the blinds with AJ+ or 2 broadways so that totally narrows your range. I think you'll almost always 3-bet a button opener with KK/AA as well, especially a nit who's range on the button will include hands that will call 3 bets and sometimes 4bet.

Given this information, anyone with even basic handreading skills will know that your range here is most likely medium pocket pairs. Check raising the flop and leading the turn on such a dry board means that there are only 2 hands you can ever realistically have here - 55/88. With your superstrong line and the villains cold call of your check raise and now raising your turn lead, his range must surely narrow to KK/88/55. Given that we have 55 I think he only ever shows up with 88 or KK here. If he has AA he is far more likely to just call your turn lead. I dont like folding sets, but this might just be the place to do it...

good post.


ugly spot. It all comes down to how strong your read is on the villain whether you drop this or not

Macspower

well you have me convinced he has a bigger set...

anyway I would think about it for a few secs. put him on a bigger set and ship it anyway :rolleyes:

Mac

looserock

an extremely cautious absolute nit plays KK like this every time I think, its a fold for me.

ianmc38

What happened in this hand?

cardshark202

I think this deep vs this player, I prefer to b3b the flop. Your cr and subsequent turn lead has narrowed his range so much that he will almost never have a worse hand now.

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

I think this deep vs this player, I prefer to b3b the flop. Your cr and subsequent turn lead has narrowed his range so much that he will almost never have a worse hand now.

Why would you b3b a K85r flop with a set?

Besides, extremely cautious nits never raise this flop, so your plan wont work in any case.

As played - extremely cautious nits dont raise the turn with AA/AK after this action, so ur probably beat.

cardshark202

Yeah what I typed makes no sense. Maybe its best to c/c flop and cr turn.

[nicK]

ianmc38 wrote:

What happened in this hand?

thanks for the replys...

the reason for my cr and lead was because i thought it was the best way to get our stacks in the middle by the river... a bet/3bet is way too strong for this guy to come along with anything i beat, and a check/call is never getting much in the middle..

anyway.. the timer went down to it's last millisecond before i decided to go with my hand and reraised allin.. villain showed k8hh and the river blanked..

looking back, the correct play was probably a fold against this particular player.. 2pair is rarely in villains range here given the action but because myself and the bb were playing so tight it perhaps opened his button range a little more than the 6% that his stats suggest..

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.