EU licence exchange

macplaxton

Hi,

I'm from the UK and have recently arrived to live in Ireland. I visited the local Motor Tax office to find out:

a) If I had to exchange my licence (they said yes, after 12 months)
b) What my UK categories would translate to (I hold A,B,BE,B1,C1,C1E(107),D1(101),D1E(101),f,k,l,n,p - they said A & B categories would translate ok; C1 categories would translate upon production of a medical and D entitlements would not translate at all)

Now maybe we got our wires crossed but here are my questions:

a) Do I really have to exchange my licence? I was on the understanding that under EU mutual recognition, I'm not obliged to exchange my valid UK licence and it is valid until it expires. Certainly that is the case IRL>UK.
b) If I had a UK bus (D or D1 unrestricted) licence, would it not be valid in Ireland? If I had an Irish D licence and came to the UK, it would be valid until I was 45 or 5 years, whichever is longer before I had to exchange it. Although I wouldn't need to exchange it immediately, I would have to go on the register with the DVLA.

It seems a lot of bureaucratic nonsense to have to get new medicals and be forced to exchange my licence. Besides, I could get a C or a D test arranged very quickly in the UK. So, from what I've been told, it doesn't seem like a very reciprocal arrangement!

Perhaps it could be added to a "sticky", an entry on exchange licences, because the Citizens' Information Site is clear as mud, unlike the UK's DirectGov site.

Many thanks,
Rich

Wishbone Ash

macplaxton wrote:

a) If I had to exchange my licence (they said yes, after 12 months)

Ideally, if you are coming here to live you should exchange your license as soon as possible as it is supposed to have your current address.

(Any penalty points which you may acquire here while using your UK license will remain dormant but will be activated once you apply for an Irish license).

maxplaxton wrote:

I hold A,B,BE,B1,C1,C1E(107),D1(101),D1E(101),f,k,l,n,p

B1, F, K, L, N and P are not used here.

F is known as W and P is M.

K and N can be driven on a W. In Ireland a B license automatically covers you for W and M.

As far as I know, a category B1 vehicle can be driven here on an A or a B license.

maxplaxton wrote:

they said A & B categories would translate ok;

Yes.

maxplaxton wrote:

C1 categories would translate upon production of a medical

The difficulty there is that C1 used to be granted with a B test but that is no longer the case. Perhaps it is still given with a car test in the UK?

maxplaxton wrote:

and D entitlements would not translate at all

I can't see why it can't be exchanged (with a medical report).

maxplaxton wrote:

I was on the understanding that under EU mutual recognition, I'm not obliged to exchange my valid UK licence and it is valid until it expires. Certainly that is the case IRL>UK.

A possible explanation is that Irish licenses are valid for a maximun of 10 years while UK ones are valid for much longer.

maxplaxton wrote:

If I had a UK bus (D or D1 unrestricted) licence, would it not be valid in Ireland?

I should think so.

In my experience, many of the staff in the motor tax offices are used to dealing with the ordinary B license holder and seem to be totally out of their depth when dealing with multi-category holders like us! (You should go for the standard rigid and artic licenses to make it more complete )

PS - excuse my ignorance but what is the 107 restriction with your C1E?

macplaxton

Wishbone Ash, thank you for your reply. Sorry about the long post.

Full UK licences since 1st January 1997 come with a lot less categories.

I passed my B test in 1991 and my A in 1993.

B1 isn't issued with A since 1st February 2001
C1 isn't issued with B since 1st January 1997
D1 isn't issued with B since 1st January 1997
Since 1st February 2001, a P is issued with a B as before, but is not valid until a CBT is taken.
+E isn't issued with all classes since 1st January 1997, addition trailer tests are now required.
D1 isn't issued with B since 1st January 1997.

Code 101 against the D1 is "not for hire or reward", I'll come back to that in a minute.

Code 107 against the C1+E is "not more than 8250kg"

Code 119 against the D1+E is "weight limit does not apply"

As you can see it's a right pig's ear.

Until the end of last month, I worked in the UK as a minibus driver. I have D1(101) entitlement which entitles me to drive minibuses, but not for hire or reward. I worked there for 4½ years. We had two drivers that had been employed for some time, but only had B licences. The error was not discovered for some considerable time as no one in work bothered checking the licences or had any idea of the law. It was thoroughly checked out after I pointed it out to them and the two drivers were withdrawn from minibus duties and given free medical/training to get a D1. The company decided (along with their legal department and insurers) that the service they were providing was NOT classed as hire or reward. I still think they're wrong and they are flouting the law. [This is a blue-chip company btw]

So, now I have arrived in Ireland, it seems I can't be a Minibus driver, as my D1 (not for hire or reward) won't exchange to an Irish full D1.

Whilst it would be ideal to exchange the licence, it appears not to be in my interest to do so. My category entitlements are valid until 2044 and photocard is valid until 2012.

Wishbone Ash

Interesting post macplaxton.

macplaxton wrote:

Code 101 against the D1 is "not for hire or reward"

Just to create more confusion, a 101 code here means that a medical report is required before renewing the license.

Until the end of last month, I worked in the UK as a minibus driver. I have D1(101) entitlement which entitles me to drive minibuses, but not for hire or reward.

Therein lies your problem I think. It appears that you acquired your D1 by default with you car license and it is restricted. In Ireland, a license is issued to a successful candidate in the test but there is no restriction such as "hire or reward" issued. To use a minibus for hire or reward the driver would also have to apply for a PSV license. (Public Service Vehicle).

macplaxton wrote:

So, now I have arrived in Ireland, it seems I can't be a Minibus driver, as my D1 (not for hire or reward) won't exchange to an Irish full D1.

If they won't exchange it, you could apply for the test here. The waiting times are relatively short for buses. (You could do the category D test and get the D1 automatically with it).

macplaxton wrote:

My category entitlements are valid until 2044 and photocard is valid until 2012.

10 years is the longest any Irish license would be valid for.

macplaxton

I was, in a way, shunting people about for hire or reward, as I was being paid a salary to shift them from railway station to office. The fact it was employee transport seems to be a loophole.

Given my reluctance (and lack of obligation) to exchange my UK licence, I could go back to the UK for a short stay and get a C or D licence sorted out if necessary.

Thanks for all the postings,
Rich

Wishbone Ash

macplaxton wrote:

I was being paid a salary to shift them from railway station to office

That wouldn't be defined as "hire or reward".

macplaxton

Depends on how you define hire or reward...

Hire and reward is defined as:
'Hire or reward' encompasses any payment in cash or kind by (or on behalf of) passengers which gives them the right to be carried.

Examples are:

Hotel offers free courtesy minibus. Passengers do not have to use it, but in paying to stay at the hotel, have a right to use it. Therefore classes as Hire or Reward.

Childrens nursery has a minibus. Fee for children staying at the nursery indirectly pay for the minibus. Classed as Hire or Reward.

Old folks home has a minibus. Indirect payment, classed as Hire or Reward.

16 mates + driver on a booze cruise to France, costs divided up between the group, but no profit. Private trip.

Students on a college bus on a field trip. Hire or Reward.

Where I think it's on rocky ground is that company A leased and insured the minibuses. Company B runs the facilities for company A and give company C a contract to supply drivers. It wouldn't be so grey an area if company A were also the employer's of the drivers. I certainly wouldn't have like to defend an action in court over it because I could see me not having a leg to stand on. I couldn't find any test cases on it, only a non-binding magistrates court decision over a minibus moving employees to and from Manchester airport (magistrate deemed it hire or reward).

Back on topic,
It would appear that unless I'm privately driving a minibus in Ireland on holiday, my UK D1(101) isn't much use to anyone, but my C1 is.

It just shows what a mess the implementation of the 2nd EU driving licence directive was in the UK.

Wishbone Ash

Re: Hire and Reward,

I'm open to correction but I think that in Ireland the register owner/operator of the buses for hire or reward is required to have a Road Passenger Operator's License but the driver is only required to have the appropriate D/D1 license (unless operating as a taxi/hackney or owner-driven).

I have often driven people around in buses and I have never held any other license (eg PSV) other than the appropriate vehicle category license.

The_Hustler

You are not required to exchange your licence by the motor tax office, it's the guards and insurance companies that sometimes request that you do so. But officially you are fully entitled to drive on your UK licence.

Also, I can assure you that those in the motor tax office are not out of their depth when it comes to multi-category holders, and if there was somebody inexperienced in this area they would consult with someone who was not.

Wishbone Ash

The_Hustler wrote:

Also, I can assure you that those in the motor tax office are not out of their depth when it comes to multi-category holders, and if there was somebody inexperienced in this area they would consult with someone who was not.

That would not be my experience on a couple of occasions.

For example, years ago I telephoned my local office to confirm that an articulated bus could be driven on a D license. I was told that an articulated bus would require a ED license. Not true.

Another example: I went into my local motor tax office to have category ED added to my license. As I already had a full category D license and a full category EC license, I knew that I was entitled to have it added automatically without a test.

The girl behind the counter insisted that it could only be added with a Certificate of Competency from a test. I tried explaining that legally, it wasn't required but to no avail. Several more staff came to the counter all looking at me as if I had 3 heads and very amused by the fact that "someone thinks they can get a license without doing a test".

Finally, an experienced person decended and informed the juniors that the gentleman was perfectly entitled to the license. He was apologetic but no apologies from those who were obviously just used to processing the B licenses.

The_Hustler

Did somebody fetch this experienced person?

Nobody is just used to processing B licences, but the situation you have described is rare so I don't doubt that it happened. I know people don't like dealing with summer temps but in some respects I think you're better to deal with them as they are much more likely to consult with someone who will know the right answer. The more pemanent staff may have more of a DIY attitude.

Wishbone Ash

The_Hustler wrote:

Did somebody fetch this experienced person?

Yes, when I began to refer to Part 4, Section 30, Sub-section (2) (d) of Statutory Instrument 353 of 1999.