1-3NL hand (extremely high content)

Goodluck2me

Playing in Ceasers tonight i have a very active image and have shown down all sorts of hand, rarely losing showdowns though.
Im in the UTG+2 playing 950, i make it 15 (standard raise) after 2 limpers with AQclubs, MP(cardshark 650) calls, as does Button 200 and Big Blind 620. (BB has played his hands/draws aggressively jsut got bluffed off KK by cardshark202 who showed him a bluff and steamed him a little bit to say the least. seems fairly decent though not spectacular. one hand he raised CO with QT called a check from 75 ->200on T74 flop and shoved for 250 on the king turn, called by T7, has recovered his stack this is about 1.5 hours later)
Flop is Kc7c2c, he checks i check, button bets 75, (looks like an all in bet but actually isnt as he is playin a 100$ bill too), BB makes it 147. i??

What do we like here and whats the plan for turn/river??

5starpool

Make it 219.

Lazare

goodluck2me wrote:

What do we like here and whats the plan for turn/river??

I really like the flop and the action for a start.
I flat call, he's surely gonna keep firing, you want to give that $100 bill every excuse to get in too.

C/raising a C/raiser would be pretty silly with the nuts.

insafehands

Nothing like being deep-stacked and having retards betting into you when you've got the nuts!

Samba

dwell up, reach for your cards, look at one, as if to say you have the Acx and then flat call and prey for a non club/paired turn.

Raising at this point will arouse suspicions as to the strength of your hand imo, bet, raise raise....really does indicate a monster lurking in the bushes.

To a non club turn/paired board turn I check and see if he will fire again, on the river I lead out irregardless of what lands his turn bet should commit him on the river providing he obliges

gosplan

Anyone find a fold here

AmarilloFats

caesars nice eh. Order eggs benedict and bacon from the room service menu, they bring oout a banqueting tray avec silver dome..

I would have lead into flop.. called a raise and looked to check-raise the turn.

Have you check raised much this session!?
If not I flat call the 147 - since a CR now looks like KK or the nuts and as such you'll have a hard tome getting BBs $600.

But lead into the flop....
2nd thoughts just raise now.
the board will pair or another club will pop up one third of the time either giving someone else a boat or ruining your action...make it $299.
But lead the flop.

Samba

AmarilloFats wrote:

caesars nice eh. Order eggs benedict and bacon from the room service menu, they bring oout a banqueting tray avec silver dome..

I would have lead into flop.. called a raise and looked to check-raise the turn.

Have you check raised much this session!?
If not I flat call the 147 - since a CR now looks like KK or the nuts and as such you'll have a hard tome getting BBs $600.

But lead into the flop....
2nd thoughts just raise now.
the board will pair or another club will pop up 33% either giving someone else a boat or ruining your action...make it $299.
But lead the flop.

I agree with above, considering your table image you should simply have lead out

fuzzbox

why on earth did you not bet the flop?

Lazare

AmarilloFats wrote:

caesars nice eh. Order eggs benedict and bacon from the room service menu, they bring oout a banqueting tray avec silver dome..

I would have lead into flop.. called a raise and looked to check-raise the turn.

Have you check raised much this session!?
If not I flat call the 147 - since a CR now looks like KK or the nuts and as such you'll have a hard tome getting BBs $600.

But lead into the flop....
2nd thoughts just raise now.
the board will pair or another club will pop up one third of the time either giving someone else a boat or ruining your action...make it $299.
But lead the flop.

So you want to kill the action now? Unless Joe's been squeezing all night, raising is madness. We shouldn't be worrying about protecting our hand, we should be thinking about getting max value, imo flat calling is best. If the board pairs, then we've a decision.

I like leading flop too, if you've been active.

Ste05

I would probably raise now, I can't see it looking like just the nuts with your image and I can see the BB getting in on the flop with a smaller flush and basically anything decent (see below for why), but if the turn comes another club or pairs, either you're fecked or he's not putting any more money in the pot.

The other guy's 100 is basically irrelevant at this point, (he'll put it in if he wants to, whether we push or call it shows strength to him, and I'd expect him to put it in either way if he has anything and fold if he doesn't),

I'm trying to get the max value out of the BB. He's just check min-raised, seems to be tilting slightly and was just bluffed off a big hand, if he has anything remotely good he's tanking it here, but with so many bad turn cards, (pairing or another club) that will kill your action or get you worried, I try and get it in now.

Although I would have led out on the flop too.

bops

Ste05 wrote:

I would probably raise now, I can't see it looking like just the nuts with your image and I can see the BB getting in on the flop with a smaller flush and basically anything decent (see below for why), but if the turn comes another club or pairs, either you're fecked or he's not putting any more money in the pot.

The other guy's 100 is basically irrelevant at this point, (he'll put it in if he wants to, whether we push or call it shows strength to him, and I'd expect him to put it in either way if he has anything and fold if he doesn't),

I'm trying to get the max value out of the BB. He's just check min-raised, seems to be tilting slightly and was just bluffed off a big hand, if he has anything remotely good he's tanking it here, but with so many bad turn cards, (pairing or another club) that will kill your action or get you worried, I try and get it in now.

Although I would have led out on the flop too.

exactly all the above but i wouldn't put it as pretty

mdwexford

i like the thread title

flat call, checking the flop is fine

jbravado

Samba wrote:

dwell up, reach for your cards, look at one, as if to say you have the Acx and then flat call and prey for a non club/paired turn.

Dont do this.Theres no need to Hollywood and you will literally announce you have a huge hand.

I think I lead this flop aswell but I dont really mind checking.I think it probably would have worked out better to lead in this particular spot.

Given your image I raise now.

CaptainNemo

I would check the flop automatically here and I'd also be inclined to flat call at this point too. Not to avoid putting the button off but because it gives you a better chance of getting the BB's whole stack. There are plenty of hands he won't call with if you raise here - a K high flush draw, 2 pair, maybe even a set or a baby flush. I would do exactly as an earlier poster said - look at your cards, think a bit and then call. You have position on him and I think he's likely to make a very big bet on the turn if he has a good hand, then you push.

If he's a good player then I suppose he has to give you credit for a big hand when you call here. But judging from the previous action I think he's more likely to come out firing again.

AmarilloFats

Lazare wrote:

So you want to kill the action now? Unless Joe's been squeezing all night, raising is madness. We shouldn't be worrying about protecting our hand, we should be thinking about getting max value, imo flat calling is best. If the board pairs, then we've a decision.

I like leading flop too, if you've been active.

I think a check raise was the worst option on the flop. But now we have checked....So we must play from here - and as such I think raising is best now.

I don't think a raise will necessarily kill the action.
I'm not worried about protecting our hand,,,... I think optimal play is probably a raise here..But I can't help thinking that a lead on the flop....LOL...

Samba

jbravado wrote:

Dont do this.Theres no need to Hollywood and you will literally announce you have a huge hand.

I think I lead this flop aswell but I dont really mind checking.I think it probably would have worked out better to lead in this particular spot.

Given your image I raise now.

I disagree if you act in the exact same manner when have a real decision on your hands, you can sell a decision to your opponent which can often lead them to apply pressure.

An award winning performance is not required but if you can successfully sell false information to your opponents it's definitely +ev

jbravado

Samba wrote:

I disagree if you act in the exact same manner when have a real decision on your hands, you can sell a decision to your opponent which can often lead them to apply pressure.

An award winning performance is not required but if you can successfully sell false information to your opponents it's definitely +ev

Granted.Its extreme hollywooding/dwell ups Im refering to-feel like open mucking when I see some people do this-invariably means the nuts or better.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Lazare

jbravado wrote:

Granted.Its extreme hollywooding/dwell ups Im refering to-feel like open mucking when I see some people do this-invariably means the nuts or better.

LOL.

People are saying here, raise given your image as if he's guaranteed to be called light. Look at the action and the board, a shortie puts in half his tank, BB then Check raises, what fool is ever gonna come over the top of that without the nuts?

He's surely going to be called by the shortie, but the big tank (ie, the value) will back away.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

CaptainNemo

LuckyLloyd wrote:

You should have led the flop. Now you want to raise. There are 17 turn cards that will potentially leave you beat or kill your action!! Lets raise, get money in with the nuts against a guy who has half his tank in and a guy who has shown strength and is steaming - build a big pot; play for stacks; take advantage of our active image etc, etc.

If you feel so strongly about this then this might be a leak in my game. I agree that if he's flopped a flush he won't fold. I'm not so sure about the set but if he's steaming I guess he won't either. And if all he has is a flush draw or 2 pair he's probably going to back off when we call. So maybe I have to change my mind on this one. I tend to get greedy when I've flopped the nuts and I often like to wait until the turn to make my move.

Do people in general feel that it's better to simply play it straightforward, get it in on the flop when you're ahead, even when you have a monster?

jimbling

Bet the FLOP

You have a very active image as you put it. This is the absolute perfect flop for you to continuation bet into.
If everyone folds you most likely weren't making any extra money anyway.
Obviously you slow down once raised and just call.

Since you didnt lead the flop Its a pretty tight call on where to take it from here. Since you have position on the check-Raiser I think I would just call the flop check-raise here.
What I do on the turn will depend on how I think he takes the call from me. Since it's live you should be able to gain some reaction. The bet size on the turn will also be important to your further strategy - as well as the shortie's involvement (i.e. if he is all in or not).
1 step at a time

Lazare

The fact that he's steaming is the only thing that suggests a raise imo, but he could very well be C/raising with air because of that.

If we flat call...
and he has a flush, it's going in anyway on a later street and we've two less clubs to dodge.

he has air, he's likely to bluff a non club turn/river, but will fold to a raise now.

All we need to worry about is the board pairing.

Ace2007

joe playing with 950 on a cash table?????

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Macspower

I'm all on for geting the money on now... you have a big hand and you wan to play a big pot. Flat calling isn't going to inflate the pot for you. If another club comes flopped a flush isn't going to put any more money in. While the turn may be a scare card for you it might be worse for him and kill further action.... I raise and if you don't get called take whats in there.

Mac

Lazare

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Connor - if he has a flush, and the board pairs or a fourth club comes out (i.e. one of 15 cards!!) he is much less likely to get the rest in. If he has 67clubs and the fourth club comes after you flatcalled - is he getting it in? PROBABLY NOT UNLESS HE IS AN ABSOLUTE MUPPET!!

Is he getting it in now with that type of holding - ABSOLUTELY!!

We are trying to get another 200BBs + over the line. The best way to do that is by raising now.

Captain Nemo - we have the nuts, yes. But with soooo many bad cards we need to play this fast. You will not be "unlucky" if you flatcall here and the turn kills you.

If we put him on a made flush, well then yes, get it in now considering our image, but Joe said he plays his draws v aggressively, add to this the fact that he's steaming and could well be raising here with relative air, I still think a flat call is best. Yes, we've 15 cards to dodge but we've 32 that are friendly.

Washout

i dont like the check on the flop personaly given your image. check raise just smells of a huge hand.


but in saying that i still would much prefer a raise here. Im trying to get a steaming player to commit on the flop here as there are alot of action killer cards that can appear on the turn.

jbravado

Ive been given this a bit more thought-Im not sure if I like a raise on the flop anymore-it really looks strong-on the other hand PEOPLE DONT FOLD SETS EVER so........

........really like to hear some more opinions on this hand

actually flopped picture flush doesnt fold much either RAISEAMUNDO.

fuzzbox

Lazare wrote:

The fact that he's steaming is the only thing that suggests a raise imo, but he could very well be C/raising with air because of that.

If we flat call...
and he has a flush, it's going in anyway on a later street and we've two less clubs to dodge.

he has air, he's likely to bluff a non club turn/river, but will fold to a raise now.

All we need to worry about is the board pairing.

Nobody ever bluff chk/minraises a guy who has just put 75 of his 175 tank into the pot. (and ppl rarely bluff chk/minraise in the first place).

Thus, he frequently has a big made hand (flush, set, two pair), and rarely has air. Since he rarely has air, then we dont really care about his turn bluff money, but we do care about the turn action killers. So we want to go for our guns now, as he is likely to be strong.

If you chk/raise all in now, then he *might* believe you have AcXo and call when drawing dead/thin.

The pot is fairly big now and CRAI is only a pot bet really. I think that cold calling the bet + chk/raise is really strong, and that if you had led the flop, you would be in better position to get paid.

phantom_lord

fuzzbox wrote:

why on earth did you not bet the flop?

yeah?? you're image is terrible, you flop the nuts, and you check??

Lazare

fuzzbox wrote:

Nobody ever bluff chk/minraises a guy who has just put 75 of his 175 tank into the pot. (and ppl rarely bluff chk/minraise in the first place).

Thus, he frequently has a big made hand (flush, set, two pair), and rarely has air. .

Yeah, I thought of that after I posted, he would want to be very bad to not have a big hand there. This is a terrible spot (value wise) to be in as a C/raised check raise gives him a perfect opportunity to get away from it regardless of our image.

LEAD THE FLOP

ocallagh

agree with fuzz.

I defo lead that flop with your loose image. With the 75 guy nearly all in, your check/call check/raise are both equally strong lines, however with a lot of problem cards that kill any sort of action on the turn I prefer to get my money in now.

a-k-47

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I hate this advice.

You should have led the flop. Now you want to raise. There are 17 turn cards that will potentially leave you beat or kill your action!! Lets raise, get money in with the nuts against a guy who has half his tank in and a guy who has shown strength and is steaming - build a big pot; play for stacks; take advantage of our active image etc, etc.

I think checking here is a really basic mistake. Also, dwelling up before flatcalling or checking here is retarded. Dwelling up and rechecking your cards before any action here is really bad. You should take whatever amount of time it takes for you to decide your bet size, prepare your chips and stick them over the line. And you should do that every hand. Taking an honest amount of time before every decision you face at the table and not attempting to do anything in terms of giving off false tells is undoubtably the best thing in the long run.

.

Goodluck2me

Well the reason i didnt lead the flop was because even though i was raising fairly often, and had an active image it wasnt neceassarily a bad image. more than 75% of my Cbets were getting through and as i had the Ace and the Queen of clubs i figured i prob wouldnt get much action unless another hit. Yes it might look like im betting a king, but with such deep stacks i didnt want to see it go fold fold. i couldnt believe the action after me obv, and was quite baffled as to my line. I called because i was so deep it can often be the Ace of clubs and also i know that he will fire the turn again and quite likely commit himself.

So i flat call the pot is 265 on the turn, 3d, he bets out 125 and i shove, i knwo he calls with a made flush and also a set, turned out he had K7 no clubs and was unlikely to have called a flop raise, i could have called the turn but i felt he mightnt put any more money in without improving to a paired board. he folded after i called the clock on him pretty quickly, as he had done this a lot when he was bluffing, (the only person at the table).

Im not absolutely certain that leading the flop is best, i def do it if i had AJ or Ax but when i hold pretty much everything i need to call that im not sure its the best option. Same goes for QJc i def lead the flop as i knwo im getting action from Axc.

Norwich Fan Rob

i lead the flop here usually, regardless of image, its the best way to get deep stacks in, agree with most of what lloyd says too.

when u flop a nut flush, the best way to get deep stacks in is always to lead, other made flushes re raise u, 2 pair, sets, bare Ks often flat call, sometimes they even raise.......... a gazillion turn cards ruin your action, and big check raises on any street when very deep, highlight your holding.

phantom_lord

goodluck2me wrote:

but with such deep stacks i didnt want to see it go fold fold.

deep, I'd be more worried about it going check check!

Norwich Fan Rob

if it does go fold fold they dont have a hand they will be getting much in with regardless on that board

Goodluck2me

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

if it does go fold fold they dont have a hand they will be getting much in with regardless on that board

surely they would be more likely to bet than call a bet, seeing as he is aggressive, i doubt however that he would raise my bet without monster.

I do however agree that its prob best to bet out if only to disguise my hand.

Goodluck2me

phantom_lord wrote:

deep, I'd be more worried about it going check check!

why? its not like im goin to stack off on a paired board.

CaptainNemo

goodluck2me wrote:

why? its not like im goin to stack off on a paired board.

If you know you can fold for a big bet if the board pairs then I like the slowplay...however if you know you're going to call whether the board pairs or not then it's probably best to raise on the flop. This probably makes no sense to anyone but me...

phantom_lord

goodluck2me wrote:

why? its not like im goin to stack off on a paired board.

cause you've the nuts with loads of $$$ behind and 0 went in on the flop?

Goodluck2me

yeah i think leading out is best, if they have a piece of it they call if they dont they dont anyway. id just be lucky for them to turn a set of the like i guess if it was checked around. its so unlikely leading is best.

fuzzbox

goodluck2me wrote:

surely they would be more likely to bet than call a bet, seeing as he is aggressive, i doubt however that he would raise my bet without monster.

If your goal is to make a little something when you hit a monster, then by all means, check and try to collect a bit of money.

However, if your goal is to get a shot at your opponents entire stack, then you should bet.

If you had AcKo here ... what would you do? What about AcAd?