Turbulence ahead for EI??

FlutterinBantam

Hmmm ..after the walkout of staff on Sunday morning by Aer Lingus passenger handling people and the statement by Aer Lingus management that the purchase of new aircraft and the opening of new routes is predicated on cost cutting and workpractice measures beig implemented before August,I would predict fairly turbulent times ahead.

The walk out would indicate there are still a few 19th century neanderthals out there,who havn't realised they are not a semi-state company any more.

The fall out from the walk out will be interesting. have the management the bottle to discipline the person who instigated it and dock pay for those who took part.

Interesting times ahead.

PhoenixRising

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Hmmm ..after the walkout of staff on Sunday morning by Aer Lingus passenger handling people and the statement by Aer Lingus management that the purchase of new aircraft and the opening of new routes is predicated on cost cutting and workpractice measures beig implemented before August,I would predict fairly turbulent times ahead.

I agree.

The walk out would indicate there are still a few 19th century neanderthals out there,who havn't realised they are not a semi-state company any more.

No. I think you'll find all staff in the airline are well aware of that reality. I take issue with your anti-union slur. How would you feel if the company you worked for were asking you to work longer hours, take a pay cut for doing so, and take a reduction in your annual leave? And how about if these changes to your working conditions were being imposed unilaterally without negotiation with the staff concerned? Would you be glad of union membership then? It's very easy to criticise from the sidelines...

FlutterinBantam

If it meant staying in business and expanding the network I most certainly would.

I certainly wouldn't antagonise my customers by staging a stunt at o600hrs at peak time and disrupting the published schedule for the day.

You don't hear any of this nonsense except Dublin Airport and Aer Lingus.

I am an admirer and a customer of EI , but the sooner the better for all concerned that they root out the last century neanderthals the better the business will flourish for the benefit of all.

PhoenixRising

FlutterinBantam wrote:

If it meant staying in business and expanding the network I most certainly would.

No you wouldn't. If you had already given large concessions and sacrifices to management over the years, for no thanks, and they just keep coming back looking for more each time. All this at a time when the airline is making more profit than it ever did and expansion is at an all-time high. Do you have a mortgage to think about? A wife and kids? You'd take a pay cut out of some kind of loyalty to the company (again)? Aer Lingus staff have done so in the past numerous times, but I'm afraid that good will towards management and moral is at a low ebb.

I certainly wouldn't antagonise my customers by staging a stunt at o600hrs at peak time and disrupting the published schedule for the day.

I agree. I, personally, didn't agree with the action the check-in staff took.

You don't hear any of this nonsense except Dublin Airport and Aer Lingus.

Ha! Gimme a break. France, Italy, Spain almost weekly.....and I could go on and on. The staff don't want industrial action any more than the traveling public do. They just want to do their job and go home to their families.

I am an admirer and a customer of EI , but the sooner the better for all concerned that they root out the last century neanderthals the better the business will flourish for the benefit of all.

If you're going to continue with this childish name calling then I have no interest in continuing this debate.

And by the way, no one wants to see the airline flourish any more than the Aer Lingus staff themselves. Ever think of that?

FlutterinBantam

Thats my whole point.

95% of the staff are solid honest workers,its the wasters/malcontents/users of the system/inveterate sick leave while i am running my business outside work/ overtime generators:cool: :cool: (gettin the picture) that you need to get rid of.

I know you know they are there,i know they are there,get rid of them and go onwards and upwards to a bright future.

Do nothing and be dragged down into their negative stalling and empty rhetoric and slowly spiral into oblivion.

Deal or no Deal:D

pclancy

Im sure the ones that actually love the airline would be happy to take some stick in the form of pay and holiday cuts now and then but it seems a contstant thing with EI that they look towards saving money by hitting the staff instead of another area of the business and im sure the people on the ground are sick of the suits telling them "we're not making money so you've got to take another cut". Its just not fair and it stinks of crap management. As much as you might love your company you've got to provide for family and self.

Its a shame to see a lovely airline be constantly tarnished by disputes with its staff. What is the solution how can they sort themselves out and start making money?

FlutterinBantam

The reason for that P is that over the years,over many years,when the times were good i.e. the duopoly years (EI & Ba) et al, work practices,pay scales,promotion systems built up which were totally uneconomical in the competitive arena. For example how can you pay a sizable proportion of the baggage handling staff over 75k p.a for an unskilled job??.
How can you achieve the fares needed to attract customers from the opposition,when a large proportion of the staff are working on some kind of overtime.
How can you run an airport schedule without staff flexability,where staff can be moved from areas where it is slack to areas where it is busy??

I am not blaming the staff,but the unit costs out there are unsustainable, and management knows this.

I think we are getting into the end game.

Ryanair on the other hand started from scratch, got all the mistakes ironed out ab initio and are in possession of a much lower costbase and achieve far greater productivity per man hour.

I wouldnt work for them in a fit , but thats the competition.

pclancy

€75K for baggage handling? Wooza!

....runs to get coat and bus to airport for new career...

FlutterinBantam

Steady ,now steady,I didn't say all,and definitely not the first few years, but a sizeable proportion of those with some fairly good service can easily achieve that sum with overtime/weekend allowances.

It's just a matter of grinding out the hours my sources tell me.

PhoenixRising

Last few points I'm going to make on this as I don't feel this forum is a suitable medium for discussing the in's and out's of IR issues in Aer Lingus.

First of all FB, you need to get up to speed with the present day Aer Lingus. The Aer Lingus you keep harping on about is gone. You are still talking about the situation in the pre-9/11 Aer Lingus. Lets not re-hash history here, but there were over 4,000 (yes 4,000) redundancies since 9/11, almost halving the total staff. Aer Lingus is an extremely lean company now and has been for many years. In fact most areas of the airline are chronically understaffed as the no-hire policy wasn't lifted early enough and now they are firefighting on a daily basis just to keep the operation going. That's a fact. So please, spare me the old wives tales about the wasters etc. You are so far off the mark it's not funny. Your flawed analysis and obvious prejudice is an insult to the hard working staff who break their back each day, and go beyond the call of duty on many occasions, to keep the operation going.

pclancy wrote:

Im sure the ones that actually love the airline would be happy to take some stick in the form of pay and holiday cuts now and then but it seems a contstant thing with EI that they look towards saving money by hitting the staff instead of another area of the business and im sure the people on the ground are sick of the suits telling them "we're not making money so you've got to take another cut". Its just not fair and it stinks of crap management. As much as you might love your company you've got to provide for family and self.

Now we're getting somewhere. Well done pclancy. Up to the top of the class!

Speaking of the 'suits', did anyone happen to catch last weeks newpapers which mentioned Dermot Mannions annual salary? I can't remember the exact figure, but it was in the region of €750,000 pa +/- bonuses (I may be 50k out). That's some salary. About 3 times what the Taoiseach gets. So when Dermot and his management team lead the way by announcing what pay cuts they'll be taking maybe the staff might listen to what they have to say...

FlutterinBantam

heh heh,,, your middle name isn't ostrich be any chance???

You have your head in the sand son.

Listen... cut the shíte out there, do an honest days work for an honest days pay,sack the wasters and the punters who don't contribute, they are dragging you down-you know who they are.Outmoded work practices and manning levels are bleeding money..your money my friend.

Acknowledge that EI has been riding on a false wave crest, decision time is here.Its shít or bust.

You seem to be a fairly intelligent person, grab your chance and move forward and don't be taken in by the wasters and gombeens who will have a new job in no time ,while you and your family suffer as a result.

Deal or no deal:D

PhoenixRising

Are you the full shilling FB?

You think that I have my head in the sand and that you somehow have the real story?

Do you work for the same airline as I do? I've laid my cards out on the table, I suggest you do the same so as to lend at least some semblance of credence to the absolute and unadulterated nonsense you are spouting. Explain to me how you can refute the day to day realities expressed by someone who works at the coalface of the airline? I'm sure it's not only me who is dying to find out. C'mon humour us.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Listen... cut the shíte out there, do an honest days work for an honest days pay,sack the wasters and the punters who don't contribute, they are dragging you down-you know who they are.Outmoded work practices and manning levels are bleeding money..your money my friend.

Acknowledge that EI has been riding on a false wave crest, decision time is here.Its shít or bust.

You seem to be a fairly intelligent person, grab your chance and move forward and don't be taken in by the wasters and gombeens who will have a new job in no time ,while you and your family suffer as a result.

Riiight........thanks for that piece of......advice. I will direct my colleagues and workmates to this post so that they may see the errors of their ways. You should join the rest of us in 2007 - the water's quite warm.

In all honesty, having read your post a few times, I still haven't got a clue what you are on about. Did you understand any of my last post? You seem to lack the ability to reconcile cold, hard facts. That 10 year old reality in your head is not the current reality.

I can't argue with such forthright ignorance, nor have I the time or inclination.

Convince me you are someone worth listening to before I add you to my ignore list with the other loonys whose postings make my eyes bleed.

RoundyMooney

Discussion in inflammatory rhetoric is inevitably going to lead to flaming.

This is directed at you FB.

This has the capability of being an interesting discussion, that is, if the points put forward are relevant/referenceable rather than knee jerk.

This is for both of you.

Personally, I think EI has come a long way, and Willie Walsh can't take all the credit...

FlutterinBantam

Fair enough Roundy... point taken.

What I am saying basically is,and I don't work for any airline by the way,is


a. Aer lingus have come a long way in the last 5 years.
b. This is due to management and staff who have worked hard to set the airline on a firm footing to meet the competitive pressures of today.
c. they are on the right flight path.


However.

They have still a long way to go as evidenced by last Sunday's situation.
Their cost base and work practices are outmoded in todays scenario and need to be trimmed.
Mindsets of years ago are still in evidence,and frankly, anyone who cannot see that is, looking through sepia tinted glasses.
my sources tell me there is a culture of overtime and absenteeism,not too widespread,but hardcore and difficult to root out.
This is evidenced by newspaper reports of baggage handlers earning in excess of 70k.and not refuted by the company.

I reiterate my hope that Aer Lingus will pull through ,but episodes like last Sundays scenario,lead me to conclude that that is not at all as certain as I would like to believe.

PhoenixRising

Well at least that last post was a bit more considered FB.

Just one or two points re overtime and over staffing allegations etc..

1) The company have called me on my days off on 4 separate occasions in the last 6 months asking me if I would come in as they were short and the flight would be cancelled. This happens regularly.

2) The company in the last few days have been ringing staff in certain departments offering to buy their annual leave back off them because staff levels are so low that individuals taking a holiday leaves the company in the lurch.

3) Hiring is taking place at unprecedented levels at the moment as the management policy of 'no new hires' in the Willie Walsh days was taken too far and the airline became chronically understaffed which is creating the problem today. Absolutely no forward planning in this regard. Exactly what are the management being paid for?

4) Many departments of the airline would collapse without overtime due to lack of staff. The willingness of some staff to do overtime is the only thing keeping the airline afloat. When staff levels reach the required level, overtime won't be required.

5) The pilots union very recently supported the company's wish to set up a pilots base in Cork which would create huge savings for the company.

There's some facts that you won't read in any newspapers. Does this sound like the airline you are referring to FB? A bunch of wasters, neanderthals, gombeens, absentees and lay abouts? You are not talking about the Aer Lingus I work for.

As always, what you read in the papers needs to be taken with a large pinch of salt. You are never getting the full story. 90% of the time what you are reading is management spin or poorly researched articles written by hacks.

Having researched Mr. Mannions renumeration package a bit more thoroughly, I have to admit that I was way out with my figure. His package is worth almost a cool million a year, or €982,000 to be exact. If he took a €700,000 pay cut he would still be the highest paid individual in the company.

So as I said before, with the airline making more money than it ever did, expanding with new airplanes and routes, hiring lots of new staff, albeit with an under performing management, you might forgive the reaction of staff when the top man earning €1m comes along looking for cuts from the hard working staff. That's the bigger picture...that's the reality.

I've said all I want to say on this and am bowing out now.

Captain Boycott

Well Phoenix, you were correct when you said this is no forum for discussing serious issues such as airline industrial relations - this is (lets face it) a 'fun' forum for wannabes and reggie spotters. I rarely visit, except to have a laugh at the inmates.
FB on the other hand - he's a troll of a different stripe! Do a quick check on his previous posts and you'll soon see this is a guy with an axe to grind all over these boards. Especially against Aer Lingus and its employees.
'I'm not an airline employee' he insists? Maybe, maybe not....or maybe the fact that he's not is where his disgruntled demeanour derives from. Think about it.
Ponder your own theories, but he's a rich source of entertainment, and the possibilities are endless.

RoundyMooney

Boycott, did you not read my post above, about keeping this discussion on the rails?

edit: In light of your charming PM, the ban is indefinite. You're sailing very close to a sitewide ban-again-and you know well what I'm talking about.

In light of your post, Pheonix, I'll lock this altogether. Feel free to discuss this in another thread if you wish.